Windows tablets

[Deleted member 13524]

The discussion was about you not willing to understand that milliwatts and high 3D performance don't fit in the same sentence.

No, the discussion was about me not willing to discuss milliwatts in the "Windows Tablets" topic.
I don't. Please, no more. I beg of you. No more "that GPU is so cool 'cause it sips milliwats" discussions because this is for tablets.

The very same SoC at lower frequencies was/is aimed for smartphones also.

Geez.. no.
Z670 is Oak Trail. Oak Trail is not meant for smartphones. There's an upcoming SoC for that and it's Medfield. Just read the effin' press release for Oak Trail, it's right there in the Engadget link I put in my previous post.
There are power-consuming parts that went there just to get Windows 7 compatibility!

Huge difference between those two SoCs.

Yes, Medfield is going to smartphones. Oak Trail is not.

Either way Intel will find itself in a tough spot; AMD is at least IMHO completely on the right track with its concentration on GPU acceleration in all of its Fusion APUs (top to bottom). Even worse Intel should be forced by now to sell its hardware by its real value...

WHAAHAHA now we're talking!
Ahem... agreed.

 

[Exophase]

Still piss-poor for a 2011 Windows 7 device. Unless all you want to play is 1999 3D games.
Wait, what was the discussion again?

So your intention is to play recent PC games on a tablet that only has touch as an input, right? Don't you think that that is a limitation regardless of how powerful the GPU is?

TDP for Oak Trail Z670 is 3W, which is ~5x higher than Z500 Moorestown (Intel's only actual - and failed - attempt at smartphones so far).

Z500 isn't Moorestown, it's Silverthorne. It's a CPU-only part meaning that it has no integrated GPU nor memory controller. Furthermore, it's only rated for 0.65W for the Z500, which is 800MHz. All the other models have at least 1.4W TDP.

With Z500 you were stuck with the Poulsbo hub chip (which had the memory controller, GPU) which consumes 2.3W. So shaving off watts with the CPU wasn't a huge win. In the end you have something which consumes a similar amount to Oaktrail at half the speed, if that 3W number for Lincroft + Whitney Point is reliable.

Likewise, there aren't official numbers for Moorestown, but I've seen estimates of about 2W for the lower end Lincrofts + Langwell. If you use the same Lincroft between the two I'm sure the gap in power numbers reduce. We actually are seeing handheld devices using Oaktrail, but not phones. Probably only because Windows is the only real selling point for Atom in this form factor, and Moorestown doesn't have that.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

So your intention is to play recent PC games on a tablet that only has touch as an input, right? Don't you think that that is a limitation regardless of how powerful the GPU is?

Given there's an USB connection, I can have any input I want, from a keyboard+mouse combo to a X360 gamepad.
Either you want to carry those, it's up to you, but the choice is there.
My ideal computing combo is to have a powerful desktop at home and a fully capable albeit cheap, small tablet to carry around everywhere, be able to play in LANs, or just single player games and watching movies during travelling, etc.
Right now I have an UMPC with a dual-core Neo @ 1.2GHz and a Radeon HD3200, which I carry everywhere (and believe it or not, it's my current workhorse for working on an access database, office productiity, mail/web browsing and occasional video playback, and it performs excellently at all that) , but I'd trade it for an equally capable tablet.

 

[Laurent06]

Anyway, it looks like the C-50 performance is "only" at about the level of ION 2 machines according to this page.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Anyway, it looks like the C-50 performance is "only" at about the level of ION 2 machines according to this page.

I stopped reading when they claimed it was based on a RV710.
It's not. It's a DX11 Cedar. Unlike RV710, it fully supports OpenCL and Compute Shader 5, which makes quite a big difference when the GPU starts being used for computing tasks.

Nonetheless, Dual-Core Atom + ION 2 performance at a fraction of the power consumption and price seems like a win-win to me.

 

[Laurent06]

Nonetheless, Dual-Core Atom + ION 2 performance at a fraction of the power consumption and price seems like a win-win to me.

I definitely agree, but I guess it also disqualifies C-50 for many recent games

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I definitely agree, but I guess it also disqualifies C-50 for many recent games

Put everything on minimum and you'll awe at how playable it gets and how well it actually looks in recent games (except some system-breakers like Metro 2033, of course)..
That and mid-2000s games (HL2, Doom3, etc) should be perfectly playable on medium or even high settings.

Besides, it's a 10" screen. You can get Powerstrip to get windows recognizing custom resolutions like 1024*576, 960*540 or 800*480, and then you'll have those resolutions available in the games. You'll just have to find the best compromise between quality settings and resolution.
Of course, this last one is more of a power user option

I managed to get my subnotebook to play Mass Effect @ ~30fps with 960*540 and some shader effects turned on
It looked quite well, really.

 

[Ailuros]

No, the discussion was about me not willing to discuss milliwatts in the "Windows Tablets" topic.
I don't. Please, no more. I beg of you. No more "that GPU is so cool 'cause it sips milliwats" discussions because this is for tablets.

Tablets don't have any capable GPUs of playing the most recent games in high resolutions with all the bells and whistles on. Unfortunately there are SoCs that are meant for both tablets and smart-phones whether you like it or not and the parcticular SoC is such a case.

Apple's A5 falls into that very same category albeit not really in the same performance ballpark as GMA600 but that's still Intel for you.

Geez.. no.
Z670 is Oak Trail. Oak Trail is not meant for smartphones. There's an upcoming SoC for that and it's Medfield. Just read the effin' press release for Oak Trail, it's right there in the Engadget link I put in my previous post.
There are power-consuming parts that went there just to get Windows 7 compatibility!

Differences are so small that you hardly can call them different SoCs. The basis of both SoCs is the same.

Yes, Medfield is going to smartphones. Oak Trail is not.

I spare you the 2nd correction since former replies covered that already.

WHAAHAHA now we're talking!
Ahem... agreed.

Well unfortunately despite that you read something that you'd agree with I personally still don't think that the wintel combination is ideal for the small form factor markets; au contraire. Besides it's about damn time open source gains a lot more ground and Microsoft and Intel start looking over their shoulders.

Put everything on minimum and you'll awe at how playable it gets and how well it actually looks in recent games (except some system-breakers like Metro 2033, of course)..
That and mid-2000s games (HL2, Doom3, etc) should be perfectly playable on medium or even high settings.

Besides, it's a 10" screen. You can get Powerstrip to get windows recognizing custom resolutions like 1024*576, 960*540 or 800*480, and then you'll have those resolutions available in the games. You'll just have to find the best compromise between quality settings and resolution.
Of course, this last one is more of a power user option :smile:

I managed to get my subnotebook to play Mass Effect @ ~30fps with 960*540 and some shader effects turned on
It looked quite well, really.

I need a =/>$500 tablet and/or netbook to torture my eyes with something like that? What for? I'd rather enjoy recent games in their full glory on the PC and on an embedded device it'll be just occasional gaming to kill time.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4023/the-brazos-performance-preview-amd-e350-benchmarked/4

If a E350 manages low details in most occasions at 1024*768 I don't think I'd bother much with such games on something that'll be even slower than that. Most of the cases illustrated above aren't even in the playable realm for my taste.

So since I've read about a gazillion times that this is a WINDOWS TABLETS thread, there will be of course such tablets but don't expect them to flood the market, nor will they be devices powerful enough to play the latest games at decent framerates let alone decent settings.

And before someone says it: embedded SoCs will get a lot stronger starting with the 28nm generation, but upcoming desktop games won't be less demanding then what we have today, rather the exact contrary.

 

[eastmen]

Having a neo 1.6 dual core + hd 4330 i can say there are alot of great games that should be playable on the c-50. Sure Modern warfare 2 and bioshock 2 wont be playable (and its prob cpu problems not gpu)

But left 4 dead is playable on my laptop and alot of games that can be had on steam for a few bucks are also playable. and i'm sure they will all be playable at the devices native res with some tweaking.

I of course don't plan on doing alot of gaming on my system but older Rpgs should be fine.

Heck the e-350 is getting 21.9 fps in dragon age origins at 1024x768 the iconia 10.1inch is only 1280x800. So dragon age should be playable and i know for a fact (trying to get it to run optimaly on my laptop) that there are some great texture mods that increase the quality of textures while keeping the quality higher than the low settings.

So there will certianly be some cases where newer games are playable.


I've said before i'm not buying till the fall and i'm hopping that the c-350 becomes an option on tablets at the time.

I personaly wouldn't mind a 2lb tablet (lighter than my laptop) so i wouldn't mind a larger battery to make up for the c-350s power usage.

I also wouldn't mind an option like the asus transformer (andriod tablet) dock for an extra $150 get a keyboard and battery built into the keyboard.


Tablet makers can allways put in a dedicated hd6250 also and allow you to turn it on for crossfire. I don't know if that will happen in a $550 tablet . But mabye a $700 verison could hae that option.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Tablets don't have any capable GPUs of playing the most recent games in high resolutions with all the bells and whistles on. Unfortunately there are SoCs that are meant for both tablets and smart-phones whether you like it or not and the parcticular SoC is such a case.

Ok, let's just say that in your world, Oak Trail will leave the thin-netbooks and tablets and go to smartphones. With a 3W TDP.
Let's just leave it like that.

Differences are so small that you hardly can call them different SoCs. The basis of both SoCs is the same.

Differences so small?
Oak Trail: Nominated as "Generation 2" by Intel, 45nm, SGX535, PCI and IDE buses, Windows 7 compatibility, 3W TDP
Medfield: Nominated as "Generation 3" by Intel, 32nm, undisclosed GPU, no PCI, no Windows 7 compatibility, <1W TDP

Yeah, that's practically the same thing. I don't even know why they're giving them different names. If I could, I would facepalm an Intel engineer right here, right now.

Well unfortunately despite that you read something that you'd agree with I personally still don't think that the wintel combination is ideal for the small form factor markets; au contraire. Besides it's about damn time open source gains a lot more ground and Microsoft and Intel start looking over their shoulders.

I'm cheerleading for Fusion APU + Windows 7 right now, because it's the closest there is of giving me what I want.

I need a =/>$500 tablet and/or netbook to torture my eyes with something like that?

Wow, if that's torture to your eyes, I imagine you went instantly blind when pong and pacman were around.

What for? I'd rather enjoy recent games in their full glory on the PC and on an embedded device it'll be just occasional gaming to kill time.

Yes, I also prefer to play in my 24" screen with the HD5870 an the Phenom II X4 @ 3GHz.
But guess what? I can't always be at home in my room. Heck, I don't want to always be at home in my room whenever I want to\can play games.
I can take a Steam game, start playing the game at home, and continue to play it while on a plane\train\bus trip, while on vacations, lying in my bed, in a café while waiting for someone, going to a friend's house for a Serious Sam LAN coop game (they're so cool!).
Sure, the PC experience is better. But if I can have both, why not? Why would I have to be content with half-assed $1 games that have no depth and bore me after 5 minutes, whenever I'm not sitting in front of a desk?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4023/the-brazos-performance-preview-amd-e350-benchmarked/4

If a E350 manages low details in most occasions at 1024*768 I don't think I'd bother much with such games on something that'll be even slower than that. Most of the cases illustrated above aren't even in the playable realm for my taste.

You see a system that performs poorly in the most demanding 2010 games.
I see a system that performs excelently in sub-2008 games, moderately in 2008-2009 games and 2010-2011 games need a little tweaking. And all of those gaming experiences still surpass anything there is for iOS or Android.

So since I've read about a gazillion times that this is a WINDOWS TABLETS thread, there will be of course such tablets but don't expect them to flood the market, nor will they be devices powerful enough to play the latest games at decent framerates let alone decent settings.

I'm realistic. I know I can't have that in 2011, 2012 and most probably 2013.
But I'll take the best possible solution for my preferences.

 

[swaaye]

I look forward to seeing people gaming on these super gamer tablets that heat up to 100F+ when doing 3D. I always liked how my netbook heats up so much gaming that the keyboard is uncomfortable (and hey it even has a fan!)

(hint hint. . low temp gaming is neat when you are holding the device)

 

[eastmen]

I look forward to seeing people gaming on these super gamer tablets that heat up to 100F+ when doing 3D. I always liked how my netbook heats up so much gaming that the keyboard is uncomfortable (and hey it even has a fan!)

(hint hint. . low temp gaming is neat when you are holding the device)

well power usage should go down with micron drops. I doubt we will ever see tablets playing the latest game that require multiple gpus . However a c-50 or a c350 with a dedicated gpu shouldn't be bad for heat. I'm not saying put a 6970 in there. but a 6250 would be fine for a cross fire set up with a c-50 c-350

 

[swaaye]

Just remember that there is no fan and the casing is the heatsink. It won't take more than a few watts to make it hot. But yeah of course better manufacturing will help. Still, don't expect these things to be closing any gaps with desktop hardware ever unless physics is suddenly reinvented.

 

[eastmen]

Just remember that there is no fan and the casing is the heatsink. It won't take more than a few watts to make it hot. But yeah of course better manufacturing will help. Still, don't expect these things to be closing any gaps with desktop hardware ever unless physics is suddenly reinvented.

of course , but i still expect them to be a class above phones. If i'm carrying a 11inch devices vs a 5 inch device i expec tthem to be able to put better hardware in it .

 

[Ailuros]

Ok, let's just say that in your world, Oak Trail will leave the thin-netbooks and tablets and go to smartphones. With a 3W TDP.
Let's just leave it like that.

It's not my world but Intel's. Intel is using the same SoC (with small variations) for multiple markets and that includes STBs.

Differences so small?
Oak Trail: Nominated as "Generation 2" by Intel, 45nm, SGX535, PCI and IDE buses, Windows 7 compatibility, 3W TDP
Medfield: Nominated as "Generation 3" by Intel, 32nm, undisclosed GPU, no PCI, no Windows 7 compatibility, <1W TDP

I never mentioned Intel's next generation embedded SoCs.

Yeah, that's practically the same thing. I don't even know why they're giving them different names. If I could, I would facepalm an Intel engineer right here, right now.

Feel free to find one.

I'm cheerleading for Fusion APU + Windows 7 right now, because it's the closest there is of giving me what I want.

Good for you.

Wow, if that's torture to your eyes, I imagine you went instantly blind when pong and pacman were around.

And then came real graphics processing and we entered a new era.

Yes, I also prefer to play in my 24" screen with the HD5870 an the Phenom II X4 @ 3GHz.
But guess what? I can't always be at home in my room. Heck, I don't want to always be at home in my room whenever I want to\can play games.
I can take a Steam game, start playing the game at home, and continue to play it while on a plane\train\bus trip, while on vacations, lying in my bed, in a café while waiting for someone, going to a friend's house for a Serious Sam LAN coop game (they're so cool!).
Sure, the PC experience is better. But if I can have both, why not? Why would I have to be content with half-assed $1 games that have no depth and bore me after 5 minutes, whenever I'm not sitting in front of a desk?

Of course will there be possibilities to have both, but there are still going to be vast differences between the two unless someone uses a similar SoC in its desktop.

You see a system that performs poorly in the most demanding 2010 games.
I see a system that performs excelently in sub-2008 games, moderately in 2008-2009 games and 2010-2011 games need a little tweaking. And all of those gaming experiences still surpass anything there is for iOS or Android.

Unless I'm reading it wrong I'm seeing an E350@500MHz performing as you describe and not something clocked significantly lower.

I'm realistic. I know I can't have that in 2011, 2012 and most probably 2013.
But I'll take the best possible solution for my preferences.

I personally don't even have a tablet yet because I can't find any practical use for my needs. Web browsing for me includes contributing on various message boards and for someone like me that types blind with all 10 fingers it'll just slow me down. I'd rather carry something heavier like a netbook or notebook around than a tablet and it's not like notebooks are that much more expensive than tablets either (especially if someone would buy a dock and/or keyboard for the tablet). Yes there are downsides to that too, but for my needs the advantages override the disadvantages.

It's not what I or you want or need, it's the market itself ie the majority of consumers that will decide about the fate of the tablet device category and I'm personally not even completely convinced that it's a device breed that has a guaranteed future.

 

[Florin]

Microsoft won't get into tablet market until they can be 'distinctive'.

Typical how the Microsoft guy is one of the 3 guys in the world to spend his day with a Dell Duo. It's in line with what you hear more often about Microsoft, that their corporate culture encourages employees to eat their own dogfood, with stories like the iPod Amnesty bin and the iPhone burial regularly highlighting some of the reasons for them completely failing to understand why real people are massively abandoning this kind of shovelware for better stuff.

 

[eastmen]

Wow so much hatred . Why don't u like the dell duo ? Its a dual core atom n550 with win 7 and a 10.1inch screen with multi touch and a full keyboard with touch screen and its only $550 with a 320 gig drive

They also list the Iconia w500 which has the c-50 and a keyboard and its $550.

I don't see how these are shovel ware and something like the ipad 2 isn't . some people don't see the value in buying a phone os on a large screen with $100 upgrades getting you 16GB storage space more

I also find the article funny since MS's plan is to use windows 8 for tablets so of course they wont have a dedicated tablet os and many of us are happy for that.


What ms if anything doesn't understand is how to pour a ton of marketing into over priced electronics and getting the cool factor behind them. They seem to have it down to a science with the kinect and xbox side but the windows side needs some help.

Most likely they will wait for windows 8 and do a media blitz showing how unlike the ipad its an actual full os allowing them to use all their software on the tablet along with their laptop and home pc

 

[Florin]

Wow so much hatred . Why don't u like the dell duo ? Its a dual core atom n550 with win 7 and a 10.1inch screen with multi touch and a full keyboard with touch screen and its only $550 with a 320 gig drive

They also list the Iconia w500 which has the c-50 and a keyboard and its $550.

Oh I don't mind em, really. I just don't see them flying off the shelves. Specs are just one factor, shouldn't be overrated in importance.

I don't see how these are shovel ware and something like the ipad 2 isn't . some people don't see the value in buying a phone os on a large screen with $100 upgrades getting you 16GB storage space more

True, but apparently that's only relatively few people. And I think you're overlooking the general pleasantness of the total Ipad experience if you're just looking at it as a box of components which can be had more cheaply elsewhere.

I also find the article funny since MS's plan is to use windows 8 for tablets so of course they wont have a dedicated tablet os and many of us are happy for that.


What ms if anything doesn't understand is how to pour a ton of marketing into over priced electronics and getting the cool factor behind them.

Who determines when something is 'over priced', though? These devices are selling like hot cakes, so they're not exactly priced prohibitively. Ownership satisfaction and repeat customer brand loyalty seem to be exceptionally high too, so on the whole it seems to work out.

What about pouring tons of marketing into overpriced software, though? OSX is a lot less expensive than any Microsoft OS, as are iLife and iWork. Actually, so is Ubuntu, OpenOffice and Google Apps. And the app store invention in the Apple ecosystem has driven prices down to typically a few dollars each. Pretty cool, to be honest.

They seem to have it down to a science with the kinect and xbox side but the windows side needs some help.

In the US and UK, surely, but elsewhere MS gaming doesn't really have all that much of a cool factor to be honest. May need to market on that a little harder

Most likely they will wait for windows 8 and do a media blitz showing how unlike the ipad its an actual full os allowing them to use all their software on the tablet along with their laptop and home pc

k.. we'll see what happens.

 

[eastmen]

Oh I don't mind em, really. I just don't see them flying off the shelves. Specs are just one factor, shouldn't be overrated in importance.

most likely because they lack the huge marketing budget that the ipad 2 is enjoying ?

True, but apparently that's only relatively few people. And I think you're overlooking the general pleasantness of the total Ipad experience if you're just looking at it as a box of components which can be had more cheaply elsewhere.

I dunno , do we know which ipad model and iphone models sell the best ? I'm going to bet its the lowest spec ipad. People wont see the value in $100 for 16 gigs more when they know they will have to buy another ipad in a year to stay current

Who determines when something is 'over priced', though? These devices are selling like hot cakes, so they're not exactly priced prohibitively. Ownership satisfaction and repeat customer brand loyalty seem to be exceptionally high too, so on the whole it seems to work out.

Of course brand loyalty is high , Apple since the ipod has locked people into their devices with their anti competetive nature. Its quite hard to move to a zune when you have hundreds of dollars worth of music drmed to hell from apple . Its also hard to move to another platfrom from IOS since you now have tons of applications you paid for.

What about pouring tons of marketing into overpriced software, though? OSX is a lot less expensive than any Microsoft OS, as are iLife and iWork. Actually, so is Ubuntu, OpenOffice and Google Apps. And the app store invention in the Apple ecosystem has driven prices down to typically a few dollars each. Pretty cool, to be honest.

is OSX less expensive than MS's os ? Can you even buy full non upgrade verisons of osx ?

Mabye OSX is less expensive because apple is able to bundle limited verisons of whatever they want into it and then try to sell it to you later for expensive prices while MS is prohibited by goverments to do that. I'd love for MS to develope something as massive as apples video editing suite and then put a stripped down verison for free on my windows copy.

In the US and UK, surely, but elsewhere MS gaming doesn't really have all that much of a cool factor to be honest. May need to market on that a little harder

The xbox brand is growing all the time. The xbox 360 market is already larger than the xbox market and I have no doubt that the xbox next market will be bigger than the xbox 360 market

k.. we'll see what happens.

We will , should see beta this fall

 

[RudeCurve]

Why can't I play my purchased XBLA games on my PS3????