Will PS4 finally posed a threat to PC?
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Aye, I prefer to see it as the solutions going to places/devices where they make more sense (instead of splitting PC functions). Cellphone is the best communication tool, any application associated with info sharing can now be shifted there to improve/simplify the use case (i.e., convenience)
Console is an entertainment box. Any fun activities can be shifted there. My family giggled and hid under our blanket in the living room to conference remote family members, and also watched old family media while lying down. It's just a totally different experience from crowding around a laptop the "traditional" way.
I think usability (in terms of input capability) plays the biggest part. Sometimes, input bandwidth issues can be solved by sync'ing resources to devices. Sometimes, the devices are actually better at input.
I'd say that's true in general. But there are cases where the gamers can't tell whether they are learning or playing. That's how we coax our kids to learn anyway.
Pretending requires no effort. Learning to a good standard requires many, many hours of normally boring practice. Too much time and effort to fit in with everything else, which is why we tend to play computer games instead of learning to race for real, study Parkour and actually do it instead of play U2 and Mirror's Edge, go to flight school and get one's pilot's license for real, etc.
Driving race cars or flying are expensive to do. So games will have to provide a simulation for most of us.
Real instruments are costly. But those GH and Rock Band setups aren't cheap either.
Yet they seem to sell like crazy every year, with a lot of people buying them repeatedly.
Real instruments are costly. But those GH and Rock Band setups aren't cheap either.
Yet they seem to sell like crazy every year, with a lot of people buying them repeatedly.
I think it's freaking hard to debate the differences between games and the real thing sometimes.
We have "real world" simulators to solve the cost problem. But a game has much lower expectation. I think that's the clearest difference.
If you have low expectation, you can actually have fun learning piano. That's what's happening to my wife and kid now, as opposed to my own personal experience.
Some instruments (e.g., violin), like hardcore games, are inherently hard. So you need persistence and talent to progress rather early.
Real instruments can be far more expensive (A piano costs thousands and tens of thousands). But there are cheaper versions (e.g., A casio keyboard costs hundreds or sub-hundreds). They become more expensive as the player progresses (e.g., Need to buy better Violin for advanced techniques).
Game instruments have limited scope, so are cheaper. Not sure if they are of better value though -- compared to the Casio keyboard above.
How many people learn musical instruments in US at some point in their life ? I remember Steve Jobs said there is a "musician" in 1 out of 3 American households. That's why they made GarageBand.
The problem with learning musical instruments is the teaching process, perception, expectation and ROI. The system doesn't "patronize" the music students. Games are much much more kinder, entertaining and cheaper overall. But I don't know if becoming a successful professional gamer is necessarily easier than learning casual piano. In both cases, they may have fun regardless.
EDIT: Yahoo! news about video game and education - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091210/wr_nm/us_videogames_education
We have "real world" simulators to solve the cost problem. But a game has much lower expectation. I think that's the clearest difference.
If you have low expectation, you can actually have fun learning piano. That's what's happening to my wife and kid now, as opposed to my own personal experience.
Some instruments (e.g., violin), like hardcore games, are inherently hard. So you need persistence and talent to progress rather early.
Real instruments can be far more expensive (A piano costs thousands and tens of thousands). But there are cheaper versions (e.g., A casio keyboard costs hundreds or sub-hundreds). They become more expensive as the player progresses (e.g., Need to buy better Violin for advanced techniques).
Game instruments have limited scope, so are cheaper. Not sure if they are of better value though -- compared to the Casio keyboard above.
How many people learn musical instruments in US at some point in their life ? I remember Steve Jobs said there is a "musician" in 1 out of 3 American households. That's why they made GarageBand.
The problem with learning musical instruments is the teaching process, perception, expectation and ROI. The system doesn't "patronize" the music students. Games are much much more kinder, entertaining and cheaper overall. But I don't know if becoming a successful professional gamer is necessarily easier than learning casual piano. In both cases, they may have fun regardless.
EDIT: Yahoo! news about video game and education - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091210/wr_nm/us_videogames_education
In elementary/intermediate grades, many US students are taught to play the recorder in order to establish some appreciation and possibly a catalyst for the actual few students who will play in a school band later on. I did it in 5th grade. Right now, from what I can tell, music education here in the US is somewhat on the decline, I think from difficulty perceptions, as well as lack of appreciation for classical instruments as opposed to mostly synthesized music or music that uses non classical instruments. The situation is certainly made worse by the years of lower funding towards elective like creative education programs such as band and more towards core subjects under Bush's push for higher standards before Obama got elected. Man things are messed up. The education itself is still decent, but as far as fostering actual interests in each individual student, the situation is kind of nil. As much as we as adults value the arts on our own time we sure don't want to think about the children sometimes. Kids need to be kids and allowed to have some enjoyment while being educated so they actually pay attention and learn.
I kind of wish the US school system would go to a 6 day school week as well with days lasting 6 hours as opposed to 7-7.5. The relative time in school is about the same, but it would be easier for having a controlled class schedule rotation (alternate classes each day like many schools here do). Kids will spend more time focused on education at home with only Sunday off. The aspect of having school almost everyday of the week might keep them mindful of when they do their leisurely activities, and I can see many businesses lobbying for such a thing to never happen since Friday nights and Saturdays are big business, especially for entertainment establishments. I don't see it costing too much more to do since you'll be running a slightly lower amount of resources like water and electricity per day for 6 days as opposed to 5 days (though I can think of many sources of wasteful spending). Almost all education employees are salary so hour wages are nothing to worry about, though I do agree that teachers are not payed as much as they should but I do think teacher certification should be more strict. It's also nice too see schools pushing uniforms for real now. Hell I think boys should wear gakurans like Japanese male students. Gakurans are Prussian inspired, and much of the US military history and discipline is thanks to Prussians and Germans so I see it as a nice fit
But back on topic, the reliability on computers and videogames, while advantageous for entertainment and cheap feeling of simulation are just fleeting dreams in the end if you really desire to do something like learn an instrument. Yes, we should have fun with our Guitar Heros and Flight Simulators, but God help us if we actually begin to actually become so unintelligent and boring as to allow such an easily acquired state of satisfaction to become the status quo instead of actually gaining the reward of a new skill that too many hours/days/years to acquire. However I must stress diversity as well. I want to applaud who ever came up with Captain Jean Luc Puccard of Star Trek: TNG for being my ideal future citizen. He still practices and appreciates the old arts and uses advanced technology to enhance his own skill for such culturally valuable skills as opposed to just letting machines do it for him. It's an interesting relationship, that of humans and our view of human skills vs simulation to do things for us as far as recreation and culture goes.
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I'm quoting you, but rather making a specific point that's directed at the main thrust of the thread. Will the PS4 be a threat to the PC?
I don't believe so.
In 2005 Sony announced this huge multimedia machine, with features such as dual HDMI, 6 USB Ports, a variety of card readers, Linux compatibility, Bluetooth connectivity, web browsing, BluRay, Full Backwards compatibility with PS1&2, etc.
By release, it had already lost one HDMI and a couple of USB Ports (crucially, those that were supposed to be at the back of the machine, ideal for things such as the camera, PlayTV, etc.)
It then lost some backwards compatibility for the PS2, then it lost all backwards compatibility for the PS2, It lost some of the card reader slots, and then lost yet more USB ports. The latter is especially galling due to some games needing dongles for wireless, meaning having to unplug PlayTV and/or Camera if you have them. More recently Linux has gone. Bluetooth hasn't been especially good for the PS3 as it's either too expensive or Sony won't allow most 3rd party hardware to be used. Rock Band and their ilk still need dongles.
The web browser is still clunky, sites such as Youtube won't work. Sony clearly don't see the browser as a priority. I can see them either letting it die a death, or being upgraded but only available for "subscribers" in the future.
But this is the first generation I can recall where newer versions of the console hardware either don't maintain the same feature set, or improve on it somehow.
Which leads me to believe that there's a sea change of opinion in Sony. Maybe they've looked at Nintendo and seen what they have been able to achieve with a minimalist approach. Or what MS have managed with charging for pretty much every accessory.
So I think the PS4 will be stripped bare. There will of course be an upgrade in the basic hardware, but out will go anything "extra" in an effort to keep the costs down. There's no way PlayTV or anything similar will be included in the box. Linux won't happen. Media readers will be an optional extra. And if there are things such as a web browser, it'll be something that will only be activated via either a "one-off" charge, or as part of a monthly "Gold" subscription package.
Which is why, in my very humble opinion, all this talk of the PS4 replacing a PC is ridiculous.
While PS3 has been failed as an elegant PC counterpart in living room,why we would expect PS4 could do better in future?
Especially Sony put home console as a "pure enterainment system" now,they drop the Linux support even it really doesn't cost too much.
Back to 2005, it was really hard to not be amazed by what Sony had said they would offer from PS3,599 price for "PC+BD Player+powerful console system" seemed to be the dream system.
"It would change the PC market with Linux... millions of consoles = millions Linux home user installed base"
Then we saw what ? The price matters.
Especially Sony put home console as a "pure enterainment system" now,they drop the Linux support even it really doesn't cost too much.
Back to 2005, it was really hard to not be amazed by what Sony had said they would offer from PS3,599 price for "PC+BD Player+powerful console system" seemed to be the dream system.
"It would change the PC market with Linux... millions of consoles = millions Linux home user installed base"
Then we saw what ? The price matters.
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Forget PC, everyone is trying to make a convergent device which is the primary portal to that big screen everyone now has.
Make displaying your media on the big TV much easier, without having to figure out how to install and configure various DLNA software.
And instead of a movie store, just include DVR functionality right out of the box, with free program guide (not like the ripoff Tivo subscription fees) and CableCard or DirecTV support.
Make displaying your media on the big TV much easier, without having to figure out how to install and configure various DLNA software.
And instead of a movie store, just include DVR functionality right out of the box, with free program guide (not like the ripoff Tivo subscription fees) and CableCard or DirecTV support.
I don`t get it either. When I want to play music I just pick up my guitar, don`t need a game for that.
Also, I have a hard time imaging a console replacing my recording PC with 10 inputs, mic preamps and Windows VSTs.
*Sigh* The degeneration of education and the bias towards certain specialization is not a US-only phenomenon. I see young and bright students going into finance more these days due to highly publicized Wall Street pay. ^_^
To the topic of console replacing PC, I don't think people -- even Kutaragi -- meant it literally (Who wants to do spreadsheet on the TV ?)
The devices themselves, be it iPhone or PS3, are indeed powerful and open enough to perform "general purpose" PC functions.
It's the software, user experience, and business model that need more work. In these areas, it would be a HUGE problem if they mimic existing PC mold. Like iPhone and its mobile Apps, console applications need to be specialized for a living room experience. So by definition, console will never replace PC. However it can spark movement towards entertainment/"funness" software and service platforms, while the PC remains a powerful generalist.
I doubt iPhone will replace PC too. But it will play a major role in the communication and information access + sharing space, more so than PC.
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Can't expect everyone to hit a home run on their first at bat you know. Besides PS4 won't be a PC counterpart, more of a supplement. Just like how netbooks supplement PCs. Certain functions that you would require a PC in the living room (media hub functionality, light web browsing) could be done by PS4 instead.
*Sigh* The degeneration of education and the bias towards certain specialization is not a US-only phenomenon. I see young and bright students going into finance more these days due to highly publicized Wall Street pay. ^_^
To the topic of console replacing PC, I don't think people -- even Kutaragi -- meant it literally (Who wants to do spreadsheet on the TV ?)
The devices themselves, be it iPhone or PS3, are indeed powerful and open enough to perform "general purpose" PC functions.
It's the software, user experience, and business model that need more work. In these areas, it would be a HUGE problem if they mimic existing PC mold. Like iPhone and its mobile Apps, console applications need to be specialized for a living room experience. So by definition, console will never replace PC. However it can spark movement towards entertainment/"funness" software and service platforms, while the PC remains a powerful generalist.
I doubt iPhone will replace PC too. But it will play a major role in the communication and information access + sharing space, more so than PC.
Well on the education issue, the situation seems to be degenerating here in the US faster than everywhere else, or well at least it seems that way. American parents are part of the problem too.
The idea of an all in one PC/Media player/Entertainment device is rather intriguing if you can get it to do all the functions you need. However currently you would need two or three such homogeneous devices, one serving as a central system like a PC, another for each TV/projector. They would all be storing unique information in reference to their specific usage, though I would prefer that each system is connected to back the other up in terms of storage in a RAID (1?) like manner, but this still can be done for cheaper using a heterogeneous set up.
I think the holy grail though could be a single central system that has the multitasking horsepower to serve both as a media/gaming device for a TV through a longer distance wire connection or wireless interface and be used as a practical computer too either at the computer itself or via terminals in a house/building. Current cost though is still astronomical for just a single system that could handle such a potentially high workload though. I think people are also forgetting that some TVs are now available with basic computing functions with Intel Atom based processing. I don't know if they could be enabled to run any OS or just a manufacturers proprietary OS (probably Linux based), but future TVs won't need HTPCs/Media playing equipment unless its for something highly specific like gaming which unto itself could be regulated by an On Live like service (though I really do hope it goes the way of the Dodo).
Stay on target. Stay on target...! This isn't the RSPCA forum.
RSPCA?
Anyways, the reason kids aren't into real music as much as pretending to play music is that there isn't great music out right now.
When the Beatles Rock Band sells so well and is seen as an introduction to the Beatles to a younger generation, it tells you that there's a vacuum of inspirational artists in contemporary music. There aren't the musicians to motivate kids to pick up and learn an instrument.
No reason though why you couldn't have something like Garageband software for consoles, connected to a MIDI keyboard through USB. I don't think this kind of application would be a big hit though, because again, there just isn't enough interest in learning music.
Anyways, the reason kids aren't into real music as much as pretending to play music is that there isn't great music out right now.
When the Beatles Rock Band sells so well and is seen as an introduction to the Beatles to a younger generation, it tells you that there's a vacuum of inspirational artists in contemporary music. There aren't the musicians to motivate kids to pick up and learn an instrument.
No reason though why you couldn't have something like Garageband software for consoles, connected to a MIDI keyboard through USB. I don't think this kind of application would be a big hit though, because again, there just isn't enough interest in learning music.
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Dubiously on-topic, if on topic at all. It is cheaper and easier than ever before for people to record music. The fact they don't shows they don't want to, IMO. Were any of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s a golden era of musicians? Did those musicians have anything else to do with their time, like access to hundreds of TV channels, movies on demand and games to play, or were the pains of practice and learning to play well actually one of a few options for recreation? Is there any way to bring "computer users and gamers as musicians" back to the topic of "consoles inheriting PC workloads" or is this thread done and dusted?!
Intuitively, I think the topic is relevant in the sense that people are trying to find the line between a top selling casual game vs a mundane educational title (or PC software). Once the line is crossed, the title may appear boring to the general audience. There is also the question of whether the depth will sustain the interest beyond the current success. [size=-2]I need to see Wii Music, SingStar, RockBand and Guitar Heroes more[/size]
I attended GDC twice (just for fun/investigation), it seems that there was a small but active gathering of "Serious Game" people. They didn't seem to make a lot of money. (Could be wrong here, would loved to be corrected).
On the topic of console doing PC-like function in the living room, I think product marketing/definition will make the most difference (e.g., picking the right genre/entry point).
It's hard to control the discussion scope though. This may be my last post in this thread.
For wco81's take on today's music. I fear that is exactly the problem with developers trying to bring their babies to the market today (even GarageBand). I haven't checked but GarageBand doesn't feel like a huge hit among the masses. It is designed for a different audience (serious audience, not suitable for "living room" app).
Also if lousy music permeates today's music scene and are still selling, then may be something can be learned from those top selling musicians. Perhaps Sony could also run their games by those musicians since they seem to know what the consumers want to buy. It may not be music/game appreciation that sells the game to the masses, but an excuse for (bursty) emotional outlet or the need to do something quick/simple/fantastical/absorbing (and trendy) to get away from life.
I attended GDC twice (just for fun/investigation), it seems that there was a small but active gathering of "Serious Game" people. They didn't seem to make a lot of money.
(Could be wrong here, would loved to be corrected).On the topic of console doing PC-like function in the living room, I think product marketing/definition will make the most difference (e.g., picking the right genre/entry point).
It's hard to control the discussion scope though. This may be my last post in this thread.
For wco81's take on today's music. I fear that is exactly the problem with developers trying to bring their babies to the market today (even GarageBand). I haven't checked but GarageBand doesn't feel like a huge hit among the masses. It is designed for a different audience (serious audience, not suitable for "living room" app).
Also if lousy music permeates today's music scene and are still selling, then may be something can be learned from those top selling musicians.
Perhaps Sony could also run their games by those musicians since they seem to know what the consumers want to buy. It may not be music/game appreciation that sells the game to the masses, but an excuse for (bursty) emotional outlet or the need to do something quick/simple/fantastical/absorbing (and trendy) to get away from life. I think that every year more music is being made. I have friends that have recorded and published there own music in different genres (from folk to techno). However, there is no media coverege and no push to sell this music as you probably won't make any profit. Therefor, you have to find it yourself
