Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Love_In_Rio]

Yes, all the talk of early, early weak devkits etc, is fine and good, but so far all we have to go on for exclusive 3D games is Zombie U, and it looks terrible.

I am starting to fear we're back to less powerful than 360 in practice, perhaps helped by bad dev tools from nintendo.

I think a mod on GAF put it well, the best way for Wii U to show it's powerful and shut up the doubters, is to show games that show it's powerful. So far it hasn't.

I mean I could be wrong, maybe the later this year stuff (if even any) or even the stuff in two years shows what wii U can do. I'm just commenting on what we have so far.

And i was interested in buying one this fall, but if i buy a new console five years after my PS3 ( and one year before new MS and Sony consoles ) with worst graphics than my PS3 it would greatly piss me off...

I recognize the plus of the 'Nintendo magic' in some of its games and would be ok with less power than X720 and PS4 but no so much...

 

[kalelovil]

The blurb for Trine 2 Directors Cut for Wii U infers it is a more powerful system than current consoles:

http://e3.nintendo.com/games/#/wiiu/trine-2

"Trine 2: Director's Cut has been designed for Wii U and takes advantage of its powerful features, ranging from improved console graphics to new, more intuitive controls on the Wii U GamePad™."

"Superb graphics and next-gen visuals using impressive technical effects, making Wii U the definite console version"


Sure, Trine 2 is not one of the most graphically demanding games, but it is not a complete pushover and in my opinion delivers quite good visuals (at least on the PC).

 

[Shogmaster]

Yes, all the talk of early, early weak devkits etc, is fine and good, but so far all we have to go on for exclusive 3D games is Zombie U, and it looks terrible.

I am starting to fear we're back to less powerful than 360 in practice, perhaps helped by bad dev tools from nintendo.

I think a mod on GAF put it well, the best way for Wii U to show it's powerful and shut up the doubters, is to show games that show it's powerful. So far it hasn't.

I mean I could be wrong, maybe the later this year stuff (if even any) or even the stuff in two years shows what wii U can do. I'm just commenting on what we have so far.

The shader horsepower in this thing can't be much different than the twins, otherwise we would see all these direct ports from the twins running at higher resolution and/or faster frame rate. So far, we have none of that. That can't be purely due to immature tools or whatever else you can blame for early development, correct? Can someone explain if it can be otherwise?

edit: LOL, I just noticed my sig, which IIRC originated from the discussions on Wii's horsepower. Funny how it still fits the discussion regarding Wii U.

 

[Rangers]

You can probably strike cheap off the list as well for Wii U

I actually think the Wii U has some promise, 2D Mario games are pure fun and on a 360 class system look great, the tablet could even be interesting at times. The Nintendoland game pack in I could see roping in some casuals.

But the lack of power is just indefensible. But hey, we all saw this with the Wii. As predicted before E3, the problem is they've got a year tops of being tenable. As long as they are only competing with PS3 and 360, maybe the Wii U proposition is tenable. But that obviously wont be long.

 

[Grall]

A mate of mine who's a dad to two kids, ages ~6/7ish, report they don't give a flying about graphics. If the game hooks them, they'll play it regardless of how it looks. Pretty graphics is not an additional attractor to them.

It works roughly the same way with casual adults as well. It's just us hardcore gamers that have this particular hangup, and frankly, we're in the minority. ...Hugely.

Nintendo managed to sell what, 60 million plus Wiis this generation, with a GPU that barely deserves the moniker, developed in the tail end of the 1990s for chrissakes. Now they're at least back in the same decade as the rest of us, which is quite an improvement in and of itself.

Wuu's going to have not dozens, but probably a hundred or even a couple hundred times more aggregate computing power compared to Wii. So it WILL pass the graphics bar for the majority of its intended audience... If that leaves some hardcore graphics whore gamers disenfranchised, well, I believe Nintendo can live with that.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Wuu's going to have not dozens, but probably a hundred or even a couple hundred times more aggregate computing power compared to Wii. So it WILL pass the graphics bar for the majority of its intended audience... If that leaves some hardcore graphics whore gamers disenfranchised, well, I believe Nintendo can live with that.

They can live with that.. but it's the complete opposite of what they've been saying about the console, to appeal the hardcore community etc.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

A mate of mine who's a dad to two kids, ages ~6/7ish, report they don't give a flying about graphics. If the game hooks them, they'll play it regardless of how it looks. Pretty graphics is not an additional attractor to them.

It works roughly the same way with casual adults as well. It's just us hardcore gamers that have this particular hangup, and frankly, we're in the minority. ...Hugely.

Nintendo managed to sell what, 60 million plus Wiis this generation, with a GPU that barely deserves the moniker, developed in the tail end of the 1990s for chrissakes. Now they're at least back in the same decade as the rest of us, which is quite an improvement in and of itself.

Wuu's going to have not dozens, but probably a hundred or even a couple hundred times more aggregate computing power compared to Wii. So it WILL pass the graphics bar for the majority of its intended audience... If that leaves some hardcore graphics whore gamers disenfranchised, well, I believe Nintendo can live with that.

Indeed, we are in a minority.

Children won´t see the hardware and graphics evolution we have lived. They already have almost CG like graphics. They think that´s normal, that always has been there. Many of us, "hardcore" gamers, have grown counting pixels ( some of us started with pong ) and love gpu and graphics evolution as a science. This "hobby" will be lost like tears in the rain...

 

[Ika]

Indeed, we are in a minority.

This "hobby" will be lost like tears in the rain...

Very well said! I remember, that about a year ago, I moded Minecraft for the kid with glsl shaders and high res textures, and he bursted into tears and demanded that I give him back the old look immediately because it looks like Crysis now , and he doesn't like those shadows and other effects Only a few of us left. I still sitting front of my high end professional CRT monitor instead of an LCD one, I still using my optical mouse instead of a laser one, and still playing every game with every setting maxed out and using 16xAA and 16xAF just like how a good graphics whore like me should. I love to play chess, but I even mod and enhanced that one too But onto the point, Nintendo may focus on the gameplay which is more important indeed, but can't just ignore the press and the market for 5-10 years. The system looks like a dated one and it's not even released. I don't really understand why they didn't turn the 3DS into the tablet fro example, and spent the "extra" money on a better hardware. A dedicated tablet is a good idea and could be used for many great things, but dedicated one is not a "must have" thing for a console, and it's definitely not a selling point imo.

 

[Grall]

They can live with that.. but it's the complete opposite of what they've been saying about the console, to appeal the hardcore community etc.

What have they been saying? I can't remember they've said a single thing, specifically. If they have, I missed it.

Anyway, if someone can't play a good game because it doesn't have the best possible graphics, that person is into this hobby for the wrong reason. Wuu games will look quite alright, even if the hardware only has PS360-level power (roughly), it still has 3x the RAM according to rumors, which will improve matters in and of itself.

All E3 games shown are still just prototypes of first-gen software. Matters always improve from there, unless we're talking about the Atari Jaguar or some other company which went out of business.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It works roughly the same way with casual adults as well. It's just us hardcore gamers that have this particular hangup, and frankly, we're in the minority. ...Hugely.

Only because they are new to graphics, I dare say. Human beings always want better when it's on offer. Those people new to gaming on Wii will be impressed with Wuu. But as other offerings present themselves and get public interest (Kinect 2, say), then these same consumers would prefer the games they like but with better graphics. That's what drives technological progess, the fact that 'good enough' becomes 'old and outdated' and no longer good enough.

That Wuu offers a suitable graphical advance to Wii isn't disputable (I argue that same case for the notion of lower-spec'd next-gen boxes from Sony and Ms if they shoose to go that way), but if it doesn't offer the experience, the graphics won't carry the platform. And for the core gamers, Wuu looks woefully underspec'd to draw them away from PS360. Nintendo's wish to reach a larger audience seems to me severely hampered by their low-spec box*.

* Yes, the spec's aren't yet known, but the argument of 'early games don't show the hardware potential' don't count any more in this age of programmable, scalable shaders, unless Nintendo have gone with a new architecture. The same PS360/PC games on Wuu will scale somewhat naturally to the resources, and what we're seeing at 720p without any AA is strong evidence that Nintendo have low-balled the hardware.

 

[Nightz]

It seems like there is a major bottleneck somewhere in the hardware. Because the leaked specs and what we have seen so far at E3 don't match. I'm sure simple 2D games like Mario Bros, that don't have complex physics or AI to worry about, should be using AA and be able to run at 1080p without being too taxing.

Have any devs said anything yet? Looks like the GPU has been seriously under clocked, I understand they were having over heating issues with the early dev kits.

 

[Ika]

It seems like there is a major bottleneck somewhere in the hardware. Because the leaked specs and what we have seen so far at E3 don't match.

I agree. After the e3 press conference, I dug up a 8400gs (the slowest dx10 card I could find home) and tried Batman just for a test. I looked and run better in 720p than what they showed.

And what's the point to show something like that even if they have technical difficulties? If the hardware is much stronger and the games will look much better, than why would they show their new system with such early versions. Doesn't make much sense to me.

ps.: finally I can use line-breaks \o/

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I agree. After the e3 press conference, I dug up a 8400gs (the slowest dx10 card I could find home) and tried Batman just for a test. I looked and run better in 720p than what they showed.

Haha, no.
It didn't. Not with a 8400GS.

 

[assurdum]

All WII-U games will be running in 720p native.
http://wiiudaily.com/2012/06/wii-u-games-run-in-720p/

...and maybe a little less for some games i think, don't know but if tekken seems to be then...

maybe at the cost of better shadder tech?

imho even all ps3 game had to run at 1080p at launch anyway... personally I don't give so much credits to this kinda of statements; if wiiu it's barely more powerful of ps3/360 I'm not surprise to see subhd game on it, especially at 60 fps...

 

[HolySmoke]

Can someone point out to me how Batman looks inferior? I admittedly only played the prequel but I can't for the life of me see what's wrong with it.

Anyway, if someone can't play a good game because it doesn't have the best possible graphics, that person is into this hobby for the wrong reason. Wuu games will look quite alright, even if the hardware only has PS360-level power (roughly), it still has 3x the RAM according to rumors, which will improve matters in and of itself.

While the nerd in me is somewhat disappointed in the seeming lack of GPU power, it is the (supposed) RAM increase that makes me feel somewhat made up for it. I've never really gotten the feeling that the current systems are that outdated outside of their RAM sizes. Excepting things like texture and display resolutions, even the PC-centric system killers (like Metro 2033 and BF3) rarely strike me as better looking than, say, God of War 3.

 

[Butta]

If the problem with the GPU is that it is clocked really low...is this resolvable before launch??? Could a larger heasink, more powerful fan, etc solve this issue? Is it also probable that they aren't working with the die shrink they will have at launch and as such are under clocked on the current dev kits?

 

[Ika]

Haha, no.
It didn't. Not with a 8400GS.

Well I can't youtube it for you because fraps badly kills the framerate on that card (strange because it has 1GB DDR3), but it does look better and run considerably well (around 30fps) (everything is set to low in game except textures which is high, and high performance profile is selected globally in the nvidia driver)

 

[pc999]

How old fare a tricore power7 CPU at 3Ghz in comparison to xenon, assuming no radical changes to the core

 

[liolio]

Indeed, we are in a minority.

Children won´t see the hardware and graphics evolution we have lived. They already have almost CG like graphics. They think that´s normal, that always has been there. Many of us, "hardcore" gamers, have grown counting pixels ( some of us started with pong ) and love gpu and graphics evolution as a science. This "hobby" will be lost like tears in the rain...

I do agree the WiiU is more than enough in term of specs for its intended targets.
Thing is Nintendo advocate for a bit more early on but others have been there already.

There is something that I find tougher to swallow is the single touch/resistive display.
Some firends of mine have kids, they've been playing with Iphone and smartphone since theirs youngest times.
I'm not sure if for that target going with lesser input was a wise choice.

Actually pushing further (I posted it already but was ignored or my pov was not considered seriously) I'm close to think that Nintendo could have gone with a tablet instead of WiiUmote.
Kids are more than used to touchscreen inputs, actually kids are more used to touch screen inputs than dual analogic sticks.
Plenty of adults have imho more experience with touch screen input than with pads.
The same applies to accelerometers.
My belief is that the main limitation of a tab in game setting is not the lack of any of the input you usually find on the face of a controller but the other ones (side buttons and triggers).

So my belief is that Nintendo could have gone further and take a greater risk (a bit like the Wii) and with a plain tab backed up by a set of side buttons/triggers.
The way the Wiiumote is set even with multitouch support it would be tough to use it as a tab as the device is way wider than the screen is.

Another thing that a tablet would achieve is that if the device takes off there are a load of downloadable game that could have been ported. I believe that the screen will set limitations.

Sometime I believe more is less. A (functional) tab would have gave editors a clearer target.
It would also have helped Nintendo imho. No need for a gimmicky approach.
They would have a easier time advertizing all the option the WiiU has as far as input are concerned: wiimote, core controller, WiiUmote.

As for the pretty interesting (especially for parents) option to play on the tab itself. I believe that that proper touch input and triggers would have done the job.
Either way they could give the option to use the "core" controller with the tab acting as a scondary screen (all it would have take is a quick stand like in archos products).

 

[Ika]

Kids are more than used to touchscreen inputs, actually kids are more used to touch screen inputs than dual analogic sticks..

I think kids can learn anything in matter of hours(!) if they enjoy what they are doing. Mouse, gamepad, tablet, whatever.... doesn't really matter to them.. I'm more concerned about how durable that screen really is, because kids tend to drop things lot.