Wii U base model 3GB usable and storage expansion discussion (*spawn*)

[Entropy]

Did you read the source of the last two pages of discussion? A day one download title from Nintendo cannot be fit into the secondary sotrage of the 8GB Wii. How is that a non-issue?

Because, by the odd chance that you are interested in that particular title, and foolishly buy the version that cant fit it (how many people are we talking about here, honestly? Two?), you can still inexpensively expand your storage to fit.

Wrong approach. Look at the sales of Live, PSN, and mobile games. Download content is big news, both games and DLC. Consumers like it and it's a good revenue turner for the platform. I don't think attach ratios count download titles.

While you are right that trying to estimate number of downloaded titles from the number of physical game discs bought is seriously flawed, what other means of estimation is available to us? It seemed reasonable that those that are very interested in buying game titles physically would be interested to buy games digitally as well, and that those that only buy a few games for their consoles simply aren't heavy users and aren't likely to purchase lots of titles on line.
The only ones who definitely have accurate data for what it looked like on the Wii is Nintendo. But assuming that they actually base their design decisions on rational evaluation of existing data and industry trends would be boring.

Again, did you read the source? This is in theory possible but Nintendo are saying don't do this, get a harddrive. If the breaking news was USB sticks work fine then there'd be no story. The news is Nintendo themselves are selling a console that can't fit one of Nintendo's games and their advice is to get an HDD.

I know the source, and they are covering their asses since everyone has a pot full of old USB-sticks they have accumulated over the years, and many of those sticks have atrocious performance, bad enough to impact the total impression of the console. Blame the American legal system for causing us all to be treated like total retards. "Keep the toothpick away from your eyes".
Nintendo should for instance be criticized for their small Wuublet battery since that forces all users to be needlessly mindful of battery levels, cord lengths and annoyances like that. But having a tight minimum configuration? Is it a surprise? And is it an issue when it is easily expanded if the customer find that their desires change?
I just can't see the problem. I guess our opinions simply differ.

 

[BRiT]

Nintendo should have been able to put in place a USB Storage test similar to how Microsoft has. When the item is inserted, perform simple speed tests for read and write, then if it passes the set criteria go on to doing an extended badblocks test, then if it passes that format the item as needed for storage usage.

This should be brain dead simple for any corporation the size of Nintendo to do. Why they did not surprises me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

While you are right that trying to estimate number of downloaded titles from the number of physical game discs bought is seriously flawed, what other means of estimation is available to us? It seemed reasonable that those that are very interested in buying game titles physically would be interested to buy games digitally as well, and that those that only buy a few games for their consoles simply aren't heavy users and aren't likely to purchase lots of titles on line.

That's not a reliable assumption, because the nature of the games differ. I rarely buy full titles these days because I haven't really got time to dedicate to gaming as I used to, but I'm keen on time fillers. I've bought far more download titles than disc titles, and I keep looking at Android for things to play too, only it's pretty rubbish IMO. I asked members here to post their game consumption, and the limited feedback so far is very heavy on the content.

The only ones who definitely have accurate data for what it looked like on the Wii is Nintendo. But assuming that they actually base their design decisions on rational evaluation of existing data and industry trends would be boring.

If their aspirations are nothing more than what they got out of Wiiware, then they should probably give up on download titles. If their aspirations are more like the other download services, then the reference point shouldn't be Wii users but the gamers on XB360, PS3 and PC, or even iOS and Android. These markets show a massive appetite for downloadable items - not just large games but lots of DLC, including themes and stuff that didn't occur to me because they're off my radar, but others are buying them up.

I just can't see the problem. I guess our opinions simply differ.

The problem is one of design and Nintendo's clarification. If Nintendo are going to the trouble to implement an online market, why is the base system so inadequate? Why don't they provide for an internal drive bay, and/or offer 16GBs minimum?

Or putting it another way, which would prefer: an external HDD as the system currently is; or an internal drive connected to a direct SATA controller for best performance from the drive with an HDD SKU that devs can target for a better experience like XB360?

I choose the latter. I'd design my console with, say, 16GBs flash in the minimum configuration and an HDD drive bay. When an HDD is attached, the flash could be repurposed as a drive cache. Core gamers would get a better experience, casual gamers would be invited to dabble more with download titles and eventually upgrade storage when they catch the bug, and you could even sell an official HDD with a markup to sell to uncertain mums and profit from the choice.

 

[Strange]

Do we know if Wii U is any different? The only reference I've seen to using the HDD with a PC afterwards is a big warning sign and some Japanese in that video. (this shows there's still more to discuss as there are unknowns ). Googled this:

Just to clear that up, in the video he said that although you can use a flash drive, they do not recommend it due to the read/write cycles are serious and could make you lose important stuff such as Save Data.

And the fact that it saves save data there most certainly points to the drive being in a special format and unusable by other devices.

 

[Entropy]

If their aspirations are nothing more than what they got out of Wiiware, then they should probably give up on download titles. If their aspirations are more like the other download services, then the reference point shouldn't be Wii users but the gamers on XB360, PS3 and PC, or even iOS and Android. These markets show a massive appetite for downloadable items - not just large games but lots of DLC, including themes and stuff that didn't occur to me because they're off my radar, but others are buying them up.

You do have a point in that if Nintendo really wanted to embrace direct downloads, they would do well to ship their consoles with larger storage capacity. After all, storage, physical or digital, tends to get filled.
However, as has been discussed in this thread, Nintendo seems hesitant about digital distribution.

If tying purchases to a particular console doesn't make consumers pause before buying, I don't know what would. I can't imagine Steam being very successful if they had tied your purchases to a particular motherboard, or the App Store to have nearly as much traffic if the apps only worked on the particular iOS device you downloaded them to.

So our differences in opinion may be moot. I don't see many being in a hurry to build a large library of DLC under the current circumstances...

 

[Arwin]

Nintendo should have been able to put in place a USB Storage test similar to how Microsoft has. When the item is inserted, perform simple speed tests for read and write, then if it passes the set criteria go on to doing an extended badblocks test, then if it passes that format the item as needed for storage usage.

This should be brain dead simple for any corporation the size of Nintendo to do. Why they did not surprises me.

Just in general I'm surprised by how incapable some companies are in lifting ideas from each other (at least insofar as they're not copyrighted).

 

[orangpelupa]

ms and s seems happily copy or adapt Nintendo idea but Nintendo hard to copy or adapt ms and s idea.

although Wii u pro gamepad seems a good copy from ms gamepad

 

[Arwin]

But even there the triggers aren't analog, as far as I know, which is crazy.



There's some interesting overlap in the way the Vita streams and the Wii app streams work, by the way. The one major thing that seems to separate them currently is that a user can't post a message straight to the stream on Vita, but can only like and comment on stuff posted from/by the App.



I heard some really encouraging comments though about how smooth the transition goes from turning on the Wii U and the TV from the Tablet, to switching between watching TV and playing a game, to switching between watching TV on the TV and the game on the tablet, to switching off the TV and play on the tablet, and browsing everywhere inbetween. There's definitely some good thought put into how that works.

Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express

 

[Grall]

But even there the triggers aren't analog, as far as I know, which is crazy.

Analog triggers aren't all that useful really except for driving/flying games and such. Most titles just treat them like regular buttons, so I'm not all that concerned overall. Also, neither PS3 nor the wii, for that matter have analog triggers either, so why make a big deal out of it.

I myself was always kind of partial to the gamecube controller, IMO it was pretty much the pinnacle of handheld controller design, except the sticks weren't clickable - and the 8-way directionals in the sticks were a bit weird, but that's a minor detail. The clickable analog triggers were a very unique idea - and also underutilized. The pad worked beautifully in the Metroid Prime and Zelda games, and it felt awesome to hold too.

Again, IMO, of course.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, imyo. ALL PS3's buttons can function in analog mode, even the d-pad ones. The only ones that don't support analog are the Home, start and select buttons. And so yeah, that includes the triggers:

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yep. I've used analogue brake on the face-button before now.

 

[Grall]

Oh, brainfart. My bad! Yeah, triggers are analog yes, but the analog face buttons that were in the PS2 were dropped for PS3 sony said around the time of the launch of the PS3. And I've never stumbled on a PS3 game that uses analog face buttons, so I believe they spoke the truth.

Anyhow, stiff analog face buttons a la PS2 are a GREAT recipe for carpal tunnel problems with your hands, so good riddance!

Anyway, wii did not have analog triggers, so I'm not terribly surprised wuu lacks as well. Most games don't use/need the analog functionality anyhow.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, but as a result, Nintendo still sections off a group of players. For instance, the main reason I keep my 360 around these days is for games like Forza, and about 50% or more of all the time I've spent on my PS3 is playing GT5. Now I usually drive with a wheel and pedals, but most friends who play this game with a pad use some form of analog input. You can use the second analog stick instead, but it makes braking and gas at the same time very hard.

And trust me - the DS3 still supports analog facebuttons too. Hardcore GT5 players that use the dualshock will often use one thumb to gently press x and [] (gas and brake), sometimes at the same time, and with a lot of control of how much they press the throttle.

Even for shooting games, setting the point at which the analog button actually triggers a gunshot could be variable for different types of guns. I don't know that games do this though, I'm not that much into shooters, but I bet it's something fps designers think about.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Even for shooting games, setting the point at which the analog button actually triggers a gunshot could be variable for different types of guns. I don't know that games do this though, I'm not that much into shooters, but I bet it's something fps designers think about.

Probably an idea that sounds great in principle but which players would complain about being 'laggy' unless you went to great pains to educate them. Like Lair and its semi-indirect control of the dragons.

 

[Strange]

Yeah, but as a result, Nintendo still sections off a group of players. For instance, the main reason I keep my 360 around these days is for games like Forza, and about 50% or more of all the time I've spent on my PS3 is playing GT5. Now I usually drive with a wheel and pedals, but most friends who play this game with a pad use some form of analog input. You can use the second analog stick instead, but it makes braking and gas at the same time very hard.

And trust me - the DS3 still supports analog facebuttons too. Hardcore GT5 players that use the dualshock will often use one thumb to gently press x and [] (gas and brake), sometimes at the same time, and with a lot of control of how much they press the throttle.

Even for shooting games, setting the point at which the analog button actually triggers a gunshot could be variable for different types of guns. I don't know that games do this though, I'm not that much into shooters, but I bet it's something fps designers think about.

Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 had a pressure sensitive gun.
lightly press you raise it, and if you push it all the way you shoot it.
You should be able to do that on the PS3 HD versions too.
And of course we have all had experience in racing games where pressure sensitive throttle makes a difference.

Other examples are Ace Combat games, where pressing triangle gives you a zoom view of the enemy, and pressure defines how far you zoom, and also square giving you a larger view of the minimap, and pressure determining how far out you zoom your minimap. (I believe in AC4?)

if I recall correctly the only buttons not to support analog are the D-pad, home, select, start, and R3 and L3 (not the movements, but pushing them down).

I seriously don't remember the D-pad being analog, But I might be wrong?

 

[orangpelupa]

i think the mgs hd is no longer offering pressure sensitive gun.

btw on previous page I read that Wii u only support usb storage and the SD card slot is not usable?

that's weird or Nintendo just want to sell `official' Usb SD card reader?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

that's weird or Nintendo just want to sell `official' Usb SD card reader?

It's Nintendo being awkward. You can use any USB reader in thwory - it just represents the SD card as USB storage to the system. Bare in mind that the system understandably formats the storage, so you won't be able to use it with anything else, but a USB SD reader can be small these days and lets you use up any old, smaller SD cards, so they aren't wasted.

 

[Gradthrawn]

Probably an idea that sounds great in principle but which players would complain about being 'laggy' unless you went to great pains to educate them. Like Lair and its semi-indirect control of the dragons.

Hitman Absolution puts this to good effect. Lightly squeeze R2 to steady your aim (hold your breath), full squeeze to fire. Or just a quick full squeeze to let off a quick shot.

 

[Strange]

i think the mgs hd is no longer offering pressure sensitive gun.

btw on previous page I read that Wii u only support usb storage and the SD card slot is not usable?

that's weird or Nintendo just want to sell `official' Usb SD card reader?

Possibly to compensate for the lack thereof of the 360 controller in the 360 version.
Sad but understandable.

Anyway the functionality is there.

Can't confirm it right now though so.

 

[Grall]

We've kind of slid off topic here I think, but considering now that wuu has launched and many of us have had a chance to use it, what do you people think nintendo is actually using those 5 gigs for? You can get a full windows xp install in much less than that amount of space!

So nintendo is reserving like 95% of that amount for possible future use by the core wuu firmware? That's ludicrous. It should be obvious to anyone that the firmware can't occupy more than a tiny fraction of that amount, considering how bare-bones it is. No amount of console-related functionality could possibly use up that much space. Sony added tons of stuff to PS3, and that machine only has 256MB of resident flash. 360 only has 16 megs as I recall, and MS has done significant upgrades there as well.

If they want to add apps to the wuu in that space (which may contain lots of sound and graphics, which can eat a lot of storage as we all know), why can't they let users decide on if, when and where they want to download that stuff?