Wii U base model 3GB usable and storage expansion discussion (*spawn*)

[Rodéric]

3GiB is fine for VC and other small things, not enough for big electronic distributed titles. (Digital Distribution just sounds odd to me, a DVD is a digital medium...)
I wonder if Nintendo knew how much memory they'd reserve before.

Anyway if you wanted to download all your games you already had planned for a HDD, no ?

Talking about such, anyone have any recommendation (brand/model) ?
(I suppose 1TiB or more.)

 

[TheLump]

3GiB is fine for VC and other small things, not enough for big electronic distributed titles. (Digital Distribution just sounds odd to me, a DVD is a digital medium...)
I wonder if Nintendo knew how much memory they'd reserve before.

Anyway if you wanted to download all your games you already had planned for a HDD, no ?

Talking about such, anyone have any recommendation (brand/model) ?
(I suppose 1TiB or more.)

Normal DD games will probably be fine. You can likely fit a few on 3GB. But if you want to download retail games (like NintendoLand) at launch then the Basic pack is not for you. Whether they knew or not, they havent left enough free space on the 8GB model to download most retail games.


Onto HDDs:

I'll be going for somthing like this if I decide to go high capacity:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Sli...BFX8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1353066825&sr=8-3

or this if I decide to go for small size (and I'm feeling rich):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-2-5...1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353066896&sr=1-2

(will obviously need an enclosure, which already have)

In general, Buffalo, Western Digital and Samsung are all reliable and reasonably priced.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I see your point. I thought you were saying that they only just annouced you'd be able to used USB drives. I also wasn't aware that they said you "shouldn't use USB memory", I thought they only said "HDDs with psus are ideal and safer than those without".

I can only go by second hand accounts as my Japanese isn't up to understanding...any Japanese at all, let alone this Nintendo Direct video explaining it all (memory talk starts about 5 mins).

That's the horse's mouth if anyone wants to translate. Kotaku's reporting says:

It is possible to use a USB Flash Memory drive; however, Nintendo does not recommend it as the drive's cycling capability can impact gameplay.

And at 9 minutes I can interpret a USB stick and a big, red exclamation mark regardless of language barrier.

Anyway if you wanted to download all your games you already had planned for a HDD, no ?

Depends. I'm the sort of person who plays one game at a time. 8 GBs would have been enough to download a game, play it, and then remove it to make room for another. But with any DLC (eg. COD map packs) it could fill up quickly. Which points to Nintendo expecting people to use an HDD, yet they don't provide an internal solution, or offer their own (profitable) external solution, which is so very odd. It's almost as if they don't believe downloadable content will ever prove popular!

I'm wondering, given Nintendo Land's example, if Nintendo made a last minute change to the base functions that took more storage than they originally planned for, and that 8 GBs suddenly filled up? I'd like to hear there's IO cache so I know that 4 GBs OS is providing a good gaming feature and isn't an OS even less efficient than Sony's!

Talking about such, anyone have any recommendation (brand/model) ?
(I suppose 1TiB or more.)

I'm well impressed with my laptop's Scorpio Blue. Quiet and cool. 1TB is a hell of a lot for Wii U if it doesn't support media (does it?)! I also don't think the HDD can be used between Wii U and PC. There seems to be something about that in the Nintendo Direct video. If you can't, I'd suggest recycling an older, smaller HDD in with the Wii U and put the 1TB disk in a PC or NAS or such. Or get a 320 GB HDD and save a tenner.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

or this if I decide to go for small size (and I'm feeling rich):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-2-5...1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353066896&sr=1-2

Why? Won't its performance be bottlenecked to be no advantage whatsoever? I can't see much reason to go with anything other than a 5400 ROM drive. That should be enough to saturate the USB's BW and load games as fast as the system can. Anything more would be money spent on no advantage.

Maybe hold off getting any HDD until Digital Foundry have had a chance to investigate what performance advantages, if any, there are using 5400, 7200 and SSD storage.

 

[TheLump]

I can only go by second hand accounts as my Japanese isn't up to understanding...any Japanese at all, let alone this Nintendo Direct video explaining it all (memory talk starts about 5 mins).

That's the horse's mouth if anyone wants to translate. Kotaku's reporting says:
And at 9 minutes I can interpret a USB stick and a big, red exclamation mark regardless of language barrier.

Yeah thats what i was remembering. I read it as "works, but not reccomended". So it'll work I'd certainly risk it. I just assumed it was them being overly cautious/covering their asses. I could be wrong though. Like you say, might be best to wait for someon to try it?

Why? Won't its performance be bottlenecked to be no advantage whatsoever? I can't see much reason to go with anything other than a 5400 ROM drive. That should be enough to saturate the USB's BW and load games as fast as the system can. Anything more would be money spent on no advantage.

Maybe hold off getting any HDD until Digital Foundry have had a chance to investigate what performance advantages, if any, there are using 5400, 7200 and SSD storage.

I wouldnt buy it for performance, but purely because its tiny and silent. That way I could hide it behind the wiiu and its not going to overheat/be loud

This is also why I was considering an SDXC card (128GB). But that idea looks to be shot down in flames atm. Come oooon hackers....break that WiiU open!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wouldnt buy it for performance, but purely because its tiny and silent. That way I could hide it behind the wiiu and its not going to overheat/be loud

That's a 2.5" drive, without caddy. It'll be no difference in size to any other 2.5" drive in a caddy. The Samsung you linked too seems pretty big.

Buy something like this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sunwire-Ext...1_5?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353072011&sr=1-5

and this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Dig...1_4?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353072055&sr=1-4

And you'll have more storage than you'll likely ever use up with Wii U content for under £30. Play it safe and spend ~£40 to get 500 GBs. I also doubt you'll hear an HDD unless you sit right next to the thing. I'm sat right next to my laptop now an occasionally, if I listen for it, hear it tick, but above a fan and game sounds? Good as silent.

 

[TheLump]

That's a 2.5" drive, without caddy. It'll be no difference in size to any other 2.5" drive in a caddy. The Samsung you linked too seems pretty big.

Buy something like this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sunwire-Ext...1_5?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353072011&sr=1-5

and this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Dig...1_4?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353072055&sr=1-4

And you'll have more storage than you'll likely ever use up with Wii U content for under £30. Play it safe and spend ~£40 to get 500 GBs. I also doubt you'll hear an HDD unless you sit right next to the thing. I'm sat right next to my laptop now an occasionally, if I listen for it, hear it tick, but above a fan and game sounds? Good as silent.

Cool, thanks. I was under the impression SSDs were still smaller (my SSD in my PC is miniscule) But thinking about it, I have my old PS3 40GB in a caddy at the moment and thats pretty darn small aswell. Not really worth the extra money for the SSD in that case...

 

[Blazkowicz]

There can be a good reason for using hard drives : your typical USB stick is unable to write the data as fast as it comes from the BD drive.
As for recommending powered hard drives, it's Nintendo telling you to buy good hardware so they don't suffer support costs for the piece of crap you bought for your laptop but want to repurpose because half the computers can't run it.

I think nothing stops you using a 2.5" drive with a Y-splitter USB cable so it gets power from two ports.

I like that industry standard hardware is supported, rather than a stupid proprietary cartridge as on X360 or expensive SKU on PS3 (even though you can swap the drive for one of your own there)
The general user base is probably expected to swap discs to play games, they don't seek to frustrate them, but if you want to get a HDD do it. The cheapest 3.5" 7200 rpm is an option - bandwith is wasted but you get marginally better access times.

 

[Entropy]

Wii U base model 3GB available for use discussion (*spawn*)

It's weird to get back to this thread to see the last several pages devoted to secondary storage.
Seriously, can this be other than a non-issue?

The WiiU uses 25GB discs as its primary distribution format. Secondary storage, ignoring patches, does not enter the picture at all. It is primarily intended for downloadable software titles, that range from tiny to modest in terms of size.

If we calculate from an 8 to 1 average attach rate, we can estimate that 50% of users buy 5 games or less. I doubt those that buy 5 games or less are going to download lots and lots of Wiiware games. They should be reasonably served by the basic model, and they can add storage on an USB stick if they want. Now, we all know that the basic model partly justifies its existance as a means to push upsells to the premium model, with 32GB of flash onboard. Now, how large a proportion of WiiU users will need those additional 24GBs of storage? Remember, the WiiU doesn't encourage you to store films, music, film trailers and other media on the actual console. Nor does it require installs for quick streaming of game data. It's for downloaded apps.

So, once those users are also taken care of, how many will need to go beyond 32 GB at all? A small fraction. And of that small fraction, most can simply add a 64GB USB stick which is cheap now, and will come in cereal boxes in a couple of years time. The fraction who would need to add a hard drive to take care of all their downloads is likely to be really, really small. Does that tiny fraction really warrant all this angst? And, considering that they can add an external HD if they so desire, of whatever make they damn well please, no need for special gear from Nintendo, how can this be claimed to be an issue at all?
Frankly, if this is a problem that is "up there", then the WiiU has no problems to speak of at all.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The WiiU uses 25GB discs as its primary distribution format. Secondary storage, ignoring patches, does not enter the picture at all. It is primarily intended for downloadable software titles, that range from tiny to modest in terms of size.

Did you read the source of the last two pages of discussion? A day one download title from Nintendo cannot be fit into the secondary sotrage of the 8GB Wii. How is that a non-issue?

If we calculate from an 8 to 1 average attach rate, we can estimate that 50% of users buy 5 games or less. I doubt those that buy 5 games or less are going to download lots and lots of Wiiware games.

Wrong approach. Look at the sales of Live, PSN, and mobile games. Download content is big news, both games and DLC. Consumers like it and it's a good revenue turner for the platform. I don't think attach ratios count download titles.

So, once those users are also taken care of, how many will need to go beyond 32 GB at all? A small fraction. And of that small fraction, most can simply add a 64GB USB stick which is cheap now

Again, did you read the source? This is in theory possible but Nintendo are saying don't do this, get a harddrive. If the breaking news was USB sticks work fine then there'd be no story. The news is Nintendo themselves are selling a console that can't fit one of Nintendo's games and their advice is to get an HDD.

 

[Persistantthug]

It's weird to get back to this thread to see the last several pages devoted to secondary storage.
Seriously, can this be other than a non-issue?

I too would like to know how the small harddrive, in relation to Nintendo's online aspirations (or perhaps lack of Nintendo's online aspirations) is a non-issue.


It was Nintendo themselves that said they wanted to sell all of their Wii U retail AAA disk based games to gamers in their upcoming online Wii U store.

How can they do that? How can they sell games to LITTLE TIMMY, AUNT SALLY, & GRANDMA ETHEL, when their built in harddrives are too small & too inadequate to do the job?

What it tells me, is NINTENDO is not serious about it's online infrastructure & online aspirations.
It tells me that Nintendo has no earthly idea what in the heck it is doing, online-wise.

That's a huge issue.

Just sayin.

 

[Grall]

The news is Nintendo themselves are selling a console that can't fit one of Nintendo's games and their advice is to get an HDD.

Non-issue. You don't HAVE to download the game. Buy it on disc, end of story.

What I'd like to know is what the wuu's noise level is. Both for its disc drive and the cooling fan. Wii had a basically silent fan and an only slightly noisy drive. You could hear the disc spinning, but it was a pretty muted, low-frequency sound that wasn't very annoying. Seeks were quite audible, but the same tends to be the case for other consoles as well; GC had just as noisy seeks also.

 

[BRiT]

Non-issue. You don't HAVE to download the game. Buy it on disc, end of story.

What I'd like to know is what the wuu's noise level is. Both for its disc drive and the cooling fan. Wii had a basically silent fan and an only slightly noisy drive. You could hear the disc spinning, but it was a pretty muted, low-frequency sound that wasn't very annoying. Seeks were quite audible, but the same tends to be the case for other consoles as well; GC had just as noisy seeks also.

It is an issue.

The noise level will be higher when playing from the optical drive than the hard drive. It also increases the wear and tear on the optical drive and the optical disc, the two parts most likely to fail.

 

[Grall]

Wear on an optical DISC is practically nonexistent, as long as you treat it right and don't use it as a coaster or such, or have poorly raised, messy kids etc. The disc should by all intents and purposes never fail (oxidation issues nonwithstanding of course.) I'd be more concerned with the cooling fan myself. As it's a sucking exhaust fan it means it sits in the (most likely rather hot) airstream and will probably get heated to 70C or more over the course of an extended play session. That tends to do a number on most fans, especially over time (lubricant evaporates, causing bearing failure.)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Non-issue.

It's not a non-issue. It may not be an issue for you, and it may be a minor inconvenience, but it's still an aspect of the console and the design that's worth considering much like any other (eg. MS's choice of proprietary HDD, Sony's choice of proprietary Vita cards, Sony's choice of open HDD use, MS allowing full installs, yadayada). Importantly, it has significant impact on DLC use on Wii. How is that a non-issue that's taboo to discuss?

As for noise, I expect the console to be very quiet seeing as Nintendo are talking about its low power, although with more heat than Wii with the same size fan, I wouldn't be surprised if that was louder. It's hard to pin down rotational speeds of the two drives, but I don't think there's much in it between Wii and Wii U.

 

[BRiT]

Removing the ability to play the game from a more reliable piece of hardware (HDD) doesn't do you any favors. It adds unnecessary wear and tear when there doesn't have to be. A couple of friends make a healthy side-income by repairing or replacing the optical laser units on PS2/PS3/XB360. From what they've seen, the failure rate of the optical units exceeds by order of magnitudes the failure of fans.

 

[Grall]

It's not a non-issue. It may not be an issue for you, and it may be a minor inconvenience, but it's still an aspect of the console and the design that's worth considering much like any other

Yes, yes, but how much discussion on this subject do we really need before anything and everything worthwile has already been said? I think we've already passed that point TBH, because Nintendo's policy is as open as anything you're likely to see. You can use ANYthing except SD cards (which are typically hella slow, especially for writing, and often not very reliable either, using poor quality flash chips) to store games on, unlike all of the other major actors who limit users in one way or another. PS3 may accept any harddrive, but you can only connect one drive, internally, and save files on it are encrypted and all kinds of nonsense.

Importantly, it has significant impact on DLC use on Wii. How is that a non-issue that's taboo to discuss?

I didn't say it's TABOO, sheesh. Don't go and put words in my mouth, thanks.

It's a non-issue becuase first of all there's not enough DLC out there yet to fill up even 3 gigs, and much less 25, and no I'm not going to count full retail games. That's outside the scope of the "traditional" definition of "DLC", which is reserved for add-on content FOR a game. And second, due to Nintendo's inclusive policy and the cheapness of external storage options, what's the big deal? Do we need to keep on harping over and over with the same information backwards and forwards again and again just because some people are unsatisfied with 3GB internal storage? So buy the black wuu then, christ!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, yes, but how much discussion on this subject do we really need before anything and everything worthwhile has already been said?

The discussion was over last page and we'd moved on until Entropy raised it again saying it was a non-issue.

PS3 may accept any harddrive, but you can only connect one drive, internally, and save files on it are encrypted and all kinds of nonsense.

Do we know if Wii U is any different? The only reference I've seen to using the HDD with a PC afterwards is a big warning sign and some Japanese in that video. (this shows there's still more to discuss as there are unknowns ). Googled this:

One downside is that the drive will be formatted for Wii U when setup, and you won't be able to switch it back and forth with other devices, such as PCs.

So it can't be used with PC, meaning it's just like a PS3 except the HDD is outside the case.

I didn't say it's TABOO, sheesh. Don't go and put words in my mouth, thanks.

Not taboo, but you did say:

Non-issue. You don't HAVE to download the game. Buy it on disc, end of story.

If "end of story" which effectively means, "stop discussing this and move on."

It's a non-issue becuase first of all there's not enough DLC out there yet to fill up even 3 gigs, and much less 25, and no I'm not going to count full retail games.

I started a thread on this very subject. Borderlands 1 DLC comes to 5 GBs. I've several games with 2/3 GB game data, and multiple download titles at 500-1500 MBs. How can you say 3GBs is hard to fill when gamers are filling up way more? And Wii U's assets should be higher quality resulting in larger games. Trine 2 will be a little less than 2GBs in size. I can only assume that those people thinking 3GBs is enough to fit download games and expansions just don't buy them!

And second, due to Nintendo's inclusive policy and the cheapness of external storage options, what's the big deal? Do we need to keep on harping over and over with the same information backwards and forwards again and again...

Ha ha. Why are you asking the same old rhetorical question if you think it doesn't need discussing? I've said why I consider it a 'big deal' (and it's not a 'big deal', just a 'deal') - in the system ergonomics and peculiar design decisions. My point has been discussing this from a system design level, and not an end-user level. An end user can stick in an HDD (maybe a flash drive) and no worries, but that doesn't change my complaints about a sticking out HDD and a third PSU to use Wii U if you follow Nintendo's recommendations.

I'm quite happy to drop this subject (other than the current unknown limitations of the external storage). If no-one posts questions why this is being discussed, I won't feel obliged to answer them.

 

[Persistantthug]

Non-issue. You don't HAVE to download the game. Buy it on disc, end of story.

What I'd like to know is what the wuu's noise level is. Both for its disc drive and the cooling fan. Wii had a basically silent fan and an only slightly noisy drive. You could hear the disc spinning, but it was a pretty muted, low-frequency sound that wasn't very annoying. Seeks were quite audible, but the same tends to be the case for other consoles as well; GC had just as noisy seeks also.

Here's the issue:


If you are serious about running an online store to sell to the masses--the hardcore & the casuals, such as Grandma and Little Timmy--then you need a seamless, idiot proof way of storing all of the stuff that said store is supposed to offer everyone.

Nintendo not doing this, tells me that Nintendo isn't ready to put both feet into the online market.

It's concerning and perhaps disappointing.

 

[BRiT]

For cross-reference, here's the thread where people can list how much and what Digital Download / DownLoadable Content they use for last gen systems: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62628 This serves as a sampling of actual consumer usage of DD/DLC and storage needs.