Wii: More Than Meets the Eye *Spin-off*

[tapionvslink]

Well, lets continue then:

I am not sure which of the tow dies inside the Hollywood package is the eDRAM and which one is the graphics chip. Most people think that vegas is the graphics chip and that napa is the edRAM, but for now lets consider both of them as possible candidates for being the eDRAM.

Now we know that these die measure:
vegas 9mm x 8mm = 72mm2
napa 13.5mm x 7mm = 94.5mm2

Now, there is a little problem with the statement made by Maxcosnole, perhaps, that the eDRAM has 24MBytes of 1T-SRAM(if you read most of what I have post here then ypu know that the eDRAM should be UX6D, but will make use of this example for the exceptic ones), and thats that neither vegas, nor napa have enough space for holding 24MBytes of 1T-SRAM

It could take me forever to try to provide the links with the information about the die size and the quantity of memory that each of the different types of Mosys 1T-SRAM macros provide, not to mention that since only 1T-MIM is available at 90nm and further I would have to do some calculations at 90nm for the rest of the other mosys macros; thankfully we have wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1T-SRAM

Just check the table provided there and just use the full macros for calculations(with overhead).- 1T-SRAM Cell sizes (μm²/bit or mm²/Mbit)

1T-SRAM with overhead can hold 1MBit in 1.1mm2
which means that it can hold 1MBit/8bit MBytes in 1.1mm2

1T-SRAM with overhead can hold 0.125MBytes in 1.1mm2

For 24MBytes that would require?
24MBytes * 1.1mm2 / 0.125MBytes = 211.2mm2

What the!!????
Neither vegas(72mm2) not napa(94.5mm2) have enough room for that, even considering both dies as eDRAM would be enough

Now lets consider
1T-SRAM-Q with overhead

it can hold 1MBit in 0.55mm2
For 24MBytes that would require?
24MBytes * 0.55mm2 / 0.125MBytes = 105.6mm2

Again, none of the two dies have enough room for that.

That leaves us with 1T-MIM, but since NEC is the manufacturer and not TSMC, we will use the UX6D macro

if you have read all the information I provided about this macro, then you should know by now that it can hold as much as 1MBit in 0.22mm2, that´s 0.125MBytes in 0.22mm2

Then for 24MBytes?
24MBytes * 0.22mm2 / 0.125MBytes = 42.24mm2

So, as you can see, this one is the only choice, and not just that, since both vegas and napa have enough room for 24MBytes at the grade that we would have 29.76mm2 free space for vegas or 52.26mm2 for napa for other things.

 

[Iron Tiger]

The Wii doesn't have any more EDRAM than the Gamecube. What it does have is more fillrate and bandwidth because the GPU is clocked faster.

 

[tapionvslink]

Man, its clear that you are only trying to find a way to disagree, but all you are trying is useles since you do not even provide links to behakf your comments.-

If what I have provided is not enough then you should try to close the mouth of NEC.

http://edn.firstlightera.com/EN/Mic...erica/EmbeddedDRAMsolutionsfromNECElectronics

"
These characteristics have helped fuel the growing popularity of eDRAM for a variety of applications – from communications systems to home electronics, from enterprise servers to entertainment systems. NEC Electronics has shipped high volumes of ASICs with eDRAM for all of these application areas. The success complex system LSI chip for the Nintendo Wii™ and Microsoft® XBox 360™ has propelled fabrication volume to many millions of devices. "

http://www.necelam.com/news/newsdetail.html?page=nintendowii


And again, you cannot achieve graphics like Resident Evil DarkSide Chronicles with just 3MBytes, considering the specs of the rest of the system that´s impossible.

But if what games tell are not enough, maybe you should try to listen to a close developer of Nintendo, and that no other one that Factor 5

http://thevgpress.com/forumtopics/f...-arent-out-of-business-56k-warning_133_1.html

"
RG: If you "create" them on the Wii
JE: Yeah, because... on the Wii, you just have to be more ingenious. But the Wii, on the other hand... I mean, think about it: it's got so much more power compared to the GameCube. If even with the extremely similar shader hardware, the system clockrate is so much higher, you can do so much more advanced things, so if people just would look at Rouge Leader, Rebel Strike and Resident Evil 4 and then say: this hardware is significantly faster than those games it should have the very minimum they should get that and then they should build on top of it.

RG: And with much more memory...
JE: Yeah, exactly, and the memory! That is a very good point. Aside from the shaders, our main limitation which we always found on the GameCube was the memory: the memory was a struggle the whole time; it was a very hard struggle. That was actually our biggest struggle. When we got the Wii specifications we were excited because we said "wow, this is actually the amount of memory which we needed"
RG: The memory problem you had before
JE: Yes, exactly, that would've been our "dream memory". (laughs)"

 

[tapionvslink]

Dont be ignorant, you are just ignoring what I have proved so far, you are just commenting with nothing to behalf your plotting, if you continue that way, then I will just continue, since there is no point into trying to talk with a child

 

[tapionvslink]

Here is another proof, from maxconsole.-
http://www.maxconsole.net/?newsid=8802

Of course, based on development kit.

Remember that both Hollywood and xbox 360 gpu were made by ATI and NEC, and wii came up later, so your suggestions just dont go along with logic

Hollywood and xbox 360 gpu are similar since both have tow dies and NEC has already said that they would be providing eDRAM for Hollywood

Wii came up later than xbox 360, so how is it that the other die, either vegas or napa, cannot be eDRAM.

Why?

 

[tapionvslink]

Stop trying to get me banned by flooding here, since this is not the first time a wii hater has done this to me, and sincerely you are going to far, you are the only person who has employed something as dumb as stating that Hollywood has just 3MBytes of eDRAM when everyone, since the launch of Wii, knew that one of the tow dies would be the eDRAM and the other the graphics chip.

http://www.technoclicks.com/article-2424.php

"

Japan-based NEC Electronics Corp. will produce LSIs for Nintendo's next generation game console, code named Revolution, at its 300-mm wafer fab in Yamagata Prefecture.

Toshio Nakajima, president of NEC Electronics, disclosed that the company had got an order for the system-on-chip LSI for Revolution. NEC Electronics plans to expand the capacity of its Yamagata 300-mm fab from present 6,000 wafers a month to 11,000 wafers in the first half of this fiscal year.
"The chips for Nintendo's game console will be one of main products to be produced at the expanded line," said Nakajima.



A Nintendo spokesman said Nitendo granted NEC Electronics permission to disclose the order, but declined to disclose details about which chip the semiconductor company will produce.
Nintendo announced Revolution last May, which featured a CPU code named Broadway developed by IBM and a graphics processor code named Hollywood developed by ATI Technologies Inc.


NEC Electronics supplied a graphics LSI chip named Flipper for Nintendo's Game Cube game console. The LSI was based on the company's embedded DRAM technology and has 24-Mbit DRAM and 6 million gates were integrated on it. The company also supplies an embedded DARM LSI to Microsoft's Xbox 360.



NEC Electronics will apparently produce an embedded DRAM chip that may integrate the graphics processor developed by ATI, or produce the embedded DRAM chip and the graphics processor.
The Japan unit of ATI, however, declined to comment about the tie-up with NEC Electronics about the graphics processor.

"
As you can see, the Hollywood could have ended up in one single chip with embedded eDRAM, but ended in two chips just like the Xbox 360.

just read with careful the part that says.-

"NEC Electronics will apparently produce an embedded DRAM chip that may integrate the graphics processor developed by ATI, or produce the embedded DRAM chip and the graphics processor"

And if this is not enough for you is pretty clear for the rest of the persons who are reading that you are just trying to waste my time and also trying to make me flood here to get me banned.

 

[Teasy]

Here is another proof, from maxconsole.-
http://www.maxconsole.net/?newsid=8802

Of course, based on development kit.

Remember that both Hollywood and xbox 360 gpu were made by ATI and NEC, and wii came up later, so your suggestions just dont go along with logic

Hollywood and xbox 360 gpu are similar since both have tow dies and NEC has already said that they would be providing eDRAM for Hollywood

Wii came up later than xbox 360, so how is it that the other die, either vegas or napa, cannot be eDRAM.

Why?

What is that Max console link supposed to prove though? All it says is what we already thought. Which is that the GPU has 3MB of eDRAM while 24MB of main memory (MEM1) is held on a second die on the same chip. That's not quite the same as having 27MB of eDRAM. As the 3MB is on a very wide bus with around 27GB/s bandwidth while the 24MB on the second die is on a much narrower bus with 4GB/s bandwidth.

 

[tapionvslink]

Maxconsole just made those assumptions with early development kits, besides, havent you read my posts, specially the one that considers 24MBytes of 1T-SRAM

for 24MBytes of 1T-SRAM at 90nm you will requiere 211mm2

and neither vegas nor napa have that much room

even using 1T-SRAM-Q at 90nm woul be enough, since you would need more than 100mm2 of room for 24MBytes.

And lets not forget what the official homepage of mosys syas about their available macros

Only 1T-MIM is available since 90nm and further.

Then again, why would Nintendo, even if it got the choice but didnt have it, would employ standard 1T-SRAM if it was more expensive required more manufacturing processes than the newest implementations of Mosys macros.

Eaach new technology mosys comes up for is cheaper, so why to use standard 1T-SRAM

The only things I can trust from maxconsole are the clock speeds since there are special devices to measure the frequency, but memory cannot be meauserd that easily, there is no magic device that measures memory, so is obvious that they based the 24MBytes in what matt from ign said about what the early wii development kits provided according to 3rd party developers, and that was done even before the announcement of NEC and Mosys stating they would work together to bring the eDRAM for Wii.

 

[tapionvslink]

The only thing Maxconsole can provide us that might be real are the clock speeds. Of course, thats if neither Broadway, nor Hollywood have over clocking option, which I doubt and consider unecessary

 

[tapionvslink]

Since most reports on wii power are based in speculations that dont even come from Nintendo, Mosys, NEC and ATI, the only way we can discover what the Wii is in reality is by gathering all official info to get the real results.

Nintendo didnt give us the final specs, but he did provide us the necessary operators and operands to get them, so, if you employ a little logic and math, you can determine it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Since most reports on wii power are based in speculations that dont even come from Nintendo, Mosys, NEC and ATI, the only way we can discover what the Wii is in reality is by gathering all official info to get the real results.

We can also see what Wii is outputting. If what you're saying were true, Wii would be achieving better results than it is.

 

[tapionvslink]

If the link with the image of wii Hollywood doesnt work, then try this .- http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/holzoa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php%3Ft%3D114467&usg=__kdGojDyZ0Z2BT8h9kyTenYWxmjk=&h=974&w=844&sz=134&hl=es&start=2&um=1&tbnid=r0JhN00jDm2MOM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaxconsole%2Bwii%2Bhardware%26hl%3Des%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

 

[DuckThor Evil]

This guy seems to be all over the place.

http://forums.gamespy.com/wii_discussion/b50651/20140278/p1/

some quotes:

"Wii Hollywood is a GPGPU based on ATI x1000 family(confirmed with details and proves)"

"Hollywoods graphics chip could be, without taking into account that we are talking about a custom chip and not especific, an x1700."

" I am sure that only few studios like Factor 5 and some CAPCOM studios are aware of this thanks to thier good relashinships with Nintendo."

It reminds me of babcat and RSX, but this is 10x worse.

 

[tapionvslink]

k, now that is clear that the Wii Hollywood is using NEC UX6D macro(1T-SRAM-Q made by MIM2 technology and not the previous FAC), we can proceed with calculating how much could the edRAM have. This topic is a llitle hard since I have to consider the possibility that maybe the eDRAM is made of 24MBytes, but if thats the case, then, as you saw previously, we would en up with a lot of room for something else; I am sure that some of you might say that the rest of the area is used for the starlet and the rest of the modules like usb, sd, etc... but since the starlet is an ARM926EJ-S, it´s die size as would only be 1.45mm2 in 90nm, I dont know for the rest of the components, but is my guess that all together might just occupy something like 4.5mm2 or a bit more

Here is another thing that Maxconsole claims to know, but is my guess that this info came from Wiibrew and they just copied it.

http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/holzoa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php%3Ft%3D114467&usg=__kdGojDyZ0Z2BT8h9kyTenYWxmjk=&h=974&w=844&sz=134&hl=es&start=2&um=1&tbnid=r0JhN00jDm2MOM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaxconsole%2Bwii%2Bhardware%26hl%3Des%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

You can clearly see that the starlet and the rest of the component like the audio dsp, etc, are embedded in the napa die.

As I said, is difficult do determine the die siz of all those component togheter, but I have come to the conclusion, since the report of.
CodeWarrior Radix Studio now shipping with Wii development kits.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=11498

that napa may have embedded an i.mx27 within it´s die.

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX27#



ARM926EJ-S(starlet) 1.45mm2
http://www.tensilica.com/uploads/pdf/Diamond-_Webinar_July07.pdf

http://www.rolandstigge.de/track/ecenov07.pdf

http://www.directinsight.co.uk/microcontroller/freescale-imx27.html


The only thing I have dicovered anout the die size of the multimedia processor I mentioned is that is small and destined more mobile devices, but I have had no luck finding the exact die size.-.

http://embedded-system.net/freescal...bile-devices-and-industrial-applications.html

Freescale i.MX27 processor DIMM module
http://www.ednasia.com/article-1894...nyfreescaleimx27processordimmmodule-Asia.html

the problem with the last link it that it provides the die size of the i.mx27 but coupled with 64 MB mobile DDR-SDRAM (expandable to 128 MByte), 128 MB NAND Flash memory.

The die size measures just 67.6 x 26 x 4.2 mm (2.6" x 1" x 0.16")
???
I am kind of confused but since the tilt says that is tiny, then its parameters should be
2.6" x 1" x 0.16 = 4.16mm2

and maybe 67.6 x 26 x 4.2 mm must refer to the i.mx27 but cpupled with 64 MB mobile DDR-SDRAM (expandable to 128 MByte), 128 MB NAND Flash memory.

That´s my guess, but if anyone has any other theories then welcome

I would like to continue until we have stemitaed an approximate die size of the whole module that would include the starlet, usb controllers, sd, etc...

 

[tapionvslink]

Ik, now, I couldnt found any other information regarding the die size that the starlet+die size of all other embedded modules would occupy togetther. But since all embeded chips like the i.mx27 are supposed to be tiny, I really doubt that they could surpass somthing like 5mm2.


But well, do you rememner that napa could have 24MBytes of UX6D(1T-SRAM technology processed by NEC) and that that would consume about 42.24mm2 of space?

if we sum that plus the area that the area occuppied by starlet and it´s other components(let´s say that they occupy 4.5mm2 instead of 4.2mm2) we would en up with 42.24mm2 + 4.5mm2 = 46.74mm2

So, since napa is about 94.5mm2
94.5mm2 - 46.74mm2 = 47.76mm2 of free space

The left area could be the graphics chip or more eDRAM. In the first case that would leave vegas as the graphics chip, in the second possibility we would end up with 72mm2 for eDRAM an 47.76mm2 for graphics chip.

Lets consider the two possibilities.-

1.- possibility:

napa with 24MBytes UX6D + estra eDRAM ? x eDRAM and vegas as the GPU

0.22mm2 UX6D = 1MBit
1mm2 = 4.545454 MBits/8bits MBtyes

1mm2 = = 0.56818181818MBytes

x = 47.76mm2 * 0.568181818MB / 1mm2

x = 27.136MBytes estra

x + 24MBytes = 51.136MBytes, lets just say that it has 50MBytes for making it simple and stright

2 possibility.- vegas as eDRAM and napa with 24MBytes of UX6D + multimedia processor+47.76mm2 of GPU


napa 47.76mm2 of GPU(GPGPU will be explained later) + 24MBytes of embedded eDRAM as cache

 

[Iron Tiger]

We can also see what Wii is outputting. If what you're saying were true, Wii would be achieving better results than it is.

Really, there's no excuse for sub-480i/p output if there's more EDRAM than on the GC. Super Mario Galaxy was a triple-AAA first party title, and it's only 448p.

 

[tapionvslink]

jajajaja, man, why are you making examples with games that were destined originally for the gamecube and then just optimized a little for wii.

Mario Galaxy is nothing more than na port of wii that was optimized a little, just like Zelda Twilight Princess, even the Smash Bros Brawl.

And you musnt forget what ATI said about the visuals shown on the E32006

ATI Hollywood the tip of the iceberg
http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/61928/ati-nintendo-wii-graphics-are-better-than-you-think/

Plus, if Nintendo has not yet upgraded the resolution is because is convinient for them, since this way they earn more profit and can sell the games at a cheaper price.


If you want HD, then most of the costumers would have to tell Nintendo to do so according to Satoru Iwata

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/20...10-could-it-have-holographic-data-storage.htm

"
He continues the above train of thought in a VB interview about a future Wii console, by talking about HD and a release date for the Wii 2. To quote: “If we have an opportunity to make a new console, it will probably support HD because it is now common throughout the world. However, as far as the Wii is concerned, we have not found a significant reason to make it HD-compatible at this time. What is the significant meaning to the users? I don’t think we should do it unless we find that reason. If we decide for other reasons to make new hardware, then HD is one of the things we would naturally add.

With Nintendo, developers like [Shigeru] Miyamoto decide. As long as they are comfortable with the current technology’s ability to deliver meaningful surprises to the users, we don’t need new hardware. However, when they start demanding something new, when they see the existing hardware can’t provide what they need, then that is when we decide to launch the new hardware. As for timing, it may be three years from now, five years from now or eight years from now.” That’s between 2012 and 2017 people!
"

Did you understand this part?.- "However, as far as the Wii is concerned, we have not found a significant reason to make it HD-compatible at this time. What is the significant meaning to the users? I don’t think we should do it unless we find that reason. If we decide for other reasons to make new hardware, then HD is one of the things we would naturally add."

 

[tapionvslink]

Please, do not interrupt me with basic attacks, let me continue, but if you have something that can counter what I am showing with a strong infrastructured argument and behalfed with at least official info and not rumors, then welcome(eye! do not forget to include a link to the info).

I not my fault that developers don not want to waste money in final sdks and tools made for wii, like the nividia physx SDK.

 

[tapionvslink]

ha, sorry, i misunderstood what you were trying to say, it was not my intention to judge you that way, is just that I read what you said so fast that misjudge what you were trying to say

 

[Geo]

Dont be ignorant, you are just ignoring what I have proved so far, you are just commenting with nothing to behalf your plotting, if you continue that way, then I will just continue, since there is no point into trying to talk with a child

You're off to quite the start for three days. I suggest you calm down and contest your views without referring to other posters or your stay here will be short and painful.

Try leaving out words like "you", "ignorant" and "plotting" and "child" for a start.

Oh, and please learn how to use the Quote button, so we can know who/what you are referring to.