Wii: More Than Meets the Eye *Spin-off*

[tapionvslink]

And lets not forget the displacement mapping patents of Nintendo, they are real not just rumors:

patent 1.-One involves a specialist hardware for vector operations, thus optimising the grahpics hardware so that the displacement mapping is computed efficiently:

patent 2.- The other method reduces the strain put on the CPU that is caused by rendering a 3d world in 2d:

If you read them with careful you will notice the mention of certain modifications in the rendering pipeline(patent 1) and the add of dot-product units(vectors computed to obtain a resulting scalar value passed again as an stream input), and as we know, that´s a basic difference between a normal GPU and a true GPGPU.

Mod : I admire your persistance, but you're missing a point here. Your numerous attempts to post this information have been rejected by the moderation team as being unfounded. I'm allowing this post just to communicate why you aren't seeing your posts/threads appear! And your first link (removed) was both broken, showing nothing relevant, and also a little suspect, taking us to a 'hide your IP' website.

Please take the hint and refrain from trying to broadcast this information here. Thanks.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

I seriously doubt that displacement mapping patent had anything to do with the Wii. I can't imagine it having enough power to do something so beyond what the GPU can do.

 

[tapionvslink]

By trying to do displacement mapping in the conventional way surely would be impossible, but by employing the characteristics of GPGPU, it could be done since the hard arithmetich calculations that this technique requires would be done between 100-250x faster than in the cpu, not to mention that cpu would be offloded of this work thus would save bandwidth

http://www.backfox.com///index.php/...23030355s31325s30315s617263686976652r68746q6p

 

[tapionvslink]

I have to use backfox, so if for some reason the link doesnt work, just put in google

nintendo displacement mapping Slides reveal first Hollywood details?

and enter the the link that says : Wii: definitive speculation?

Estrange title for a page that thinks that displacement mapping on wii is possible.

Either way, it provides info on the patents of wii and what is displacement mapping.
If you read with careful the patents, you will notice the mention of dot-product units in the rendering pipeline, so, as you know, a GPGPU is made from a GPU by changing things like the structure of the pieline(check wikipedia).

 

[tapionvslink]

Is not my intention to hide my ip, is just that right now I am at work, they have included software that doesn´t let me enter almost nowhere, that why I iuse backfox. Besides, right now i am doing almost nothing, and have to entertain myself somehow

 

[tapionvslink]

And of course I am persistent, since I got proves based only in official information, unlike many others. Besides, GPGPU technology was available before the launch of the Hollywood, but the problem resided in that the technology was so new and difficult to use, that Nintendo had to think with careful if going that way or not. Dont you remember the first specs of the Revolution?

Why they ended that low?

I mean, man, not even a g3 at 1ghz?
only 64MBytes of GDDR3 instead of 1T-MIM or UX6D from NEC?
the same buses like gamecube?
The manufacturing cost of a wii considering that mems technology isnt that expensive as many think it is?
The statement from konami that wii had a dedicated ppu for physics(GPGPUs do that stuff to and better?
etc...

Man, haven´t you anytime thought on those things?

 

[tapionvslink]

Sorry seems I misundesrstood.

So what am I supposed to do about it, provide the direct link of my pdf?

I can do it, is it that right with you?

 

[tapionvslink]

Freescale's CodeWarrior Official Toolset for Wii

Now this is something that has been bothering me for a long time.

I have been trying to figure out how much space of the die size of the napa chip on Hollywood would be minimized by embedding things like the ARM926EJ-S(starlet), the usb modules, the sd module,the wifi, bluetgooth, etc.

Here is a picture with the embedded components on the napa chip of Hollywood that came from Maxconsole
http://www.maxconsole.net/content_img/holzoa.jpg

and since Nintendo would be making use of Freescale's CodeWarrior tools(http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800417455_499495_NT_e272de4b.HTM), my guess is that the napa die has ebedded within it the i.mx27 multimedia application processor from Freescale

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX27


The only thing I am sure of is the die size of the starlet which, according to the next link, can go up to 1.55mm2 at 400mhz according to

http://www.future-mag.com/0707/docs/FTM0707.pdf

http://www.ebv.com/en/products/cate...duct/imx27.html?tx_ebvproductfe_pi1[sectab]=0

But for the rest of the components I have no idea.

The purpose of this topic is to determine how much space of the napa die on Hollywood is used for things not related to graphics or embedded memory.

If somenone knows the die size of the freescale i.mx27, please tell me

 

[Teasy]

No sure why there's such an issue with this speculation being posted (misguided as it may be). If people think he's wrong then why not simply disagree with him?

 

[tapionvslink]

Could it be that they consider posting my homepage here as spaming?

But if I provide the direct link of my work and not my homepage, then it would not be considered as a spam?

 

[tapionvslink]

Well, it doesnt metter if I cannot provide my homepage, since I can still talk about my research here.

Why don´t we start with the eDRAM memory that Wii Hollywood has?

We know that many people have speculated that the eDRAM of wii is made of the same 1T-SRAM macro that Gamecube used, but that cannot be for the following reasons.-

* standard 1T-SRAM is more expensive than 1T-SRAM-Q and 1T-SRAM-MIM
* standard 1T-SRAM needs more step processes to be fabricated.
* neither 1T-SRAM nor 1T-SRAM-Q are available at 90nm process and that can be confirmed in Mosys homepage: http://www.mosys.com/Products/1T-SRAM-Available-Macros.aspx

As you can see, only 1T-MIM cell types are available at 90nm, the cell + the overhead it´s what integrates a full macro, so the full macro would be called 1T-SRAM-MIM.

And lets not forget that 1T-MIM cell types were available since December of 2005:
http://www.tsmc.com/download/english/a05_literature/Sept_2004.pdf

1T-MIM
http://www.tsmc.com/download/english/a05_literature/Emb_HDM.pdf
http://www.tsmc.com/download/english/a05_literature/90nm_Brochure.pdf

Now, as we all know, the NEC is the one who was selected to implement their eDRAM on the Wii:

June 19, 2006
http://gear.ign.com/articles/713/713254p1.html

So, since the announcement says that NEC would manufacture(future tense) the eDRAM for Wii and that NEC had selected MoSys as the DRAM macro design partner for the "Wii devices", we can assume that NEC´s eDRAM for Wii is the NEC´s UX6D macro since is very similar to the 1T-MIM that TSMC manufactures:

NEC UX6D: http://www.am.necel.com/process/edramprocess.html

Besides, there isn´t any other macro from NEC available at 90nm and even the Hollywood has NEC´s firm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hollywood_gpu.png

And even the Mosys and NEC homepages confirm their relashionship with Wii:
http://www.mosys.com/
http://www.am.necel.com/process/gamecube.html

And for those who didnt know, NEC fabricated the Gamecube 3 MBytes of 1T-SRAM embedded memory
http://www.am.necel.com/process/gamecube.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_(graphics_chip)

I will wait until you read all this and we may continue with the question.- how much memory could the edRAM on wii have then?

 

[fearsomepirate]

It has 3 MB, just like the Gamecube. These things were discussed here when the Wii (then "Revolution") hardware rumor mill was operating at full capacity. Sorry to see that you're still living in 2005.

On things more relevant to this thread, remember that EMBM takes resources, just like any other effect. It's possible that developers would just rather use the fillrate for something else. And if we limit ourselves to Wii exclusives, not PSP and PS2 ports, I suspect you'll find that a lot more games use Wii-specific effects than you've assumed.

 

[tapionvslink]

The 3MBytes you are talking about are the ones embedded within the graphics chip, not the eDRAM friend.

Don´t you know that Hollywood has two dies: vegas and napa?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_(graphics_chip)

"
Hollywood is the name of the Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) used in Nintendo's Wii video game console. It was designed by AMD's ATi Technologies division and is manufactured using the same 90 nm CMOS process[1] as the "Broadway" processor. Very few official details have been released to the public by Nintendo, ATI, or IBM. The Hollywood GPU reportedly clocks at 243 MHz[2], though none of the clock rates have been confirmed by Nintendo, IBM, or ATI.
The Hollywood is a multi-chip module (MCM) package containing two dies under the cover. One of the two chips, codenamed Napa, controls the I/O functions, RAM access, and the actual GPU with its embedded DRAM, and measures 8 × 9 mm. The other, codenamed Vegas, holds the Audio DSP and the 24 MB of "internal" 1T-SRAM and measures 13.5 × 7 mm.
The Hollywood also contains an ARM926 core, which has been unofficially nicknamed the Starlet[3]. This embedded microprocessor performs many of the I/O functions, including controlling the wireless functionality, USB, the disc drive, and other miscellaneous functions. It also acts as the security controller of the system, performing encryption and authentication functions. The Hollywood includes hardware implementations of AES and SHA-1, to speed up these functions. Communication with the main CPU is accomplished via an IPC mechanism. The Starlet performs the WiiConnect24 functions while the Wii console is in standby mode[3].
"
The only things I trust there are the measurements, since the 24MBytes they mentioned are based in the early wii development kits that Nintendo distributed even before the E32006.

 

[tapionvslink]

Besides, how can you achieve games like Resident Evil Darkside Chronicles, Death Mountain, the Grinder, Galtdiator, Dead Space Extraction, Sillent Hill Shattered Memories, Mounster Hunter 3, etc, with just 3MBytes and making use of the hardware in the conventional way?

Even Factor 5 had troubles with just 3MBytes of embedded meory to achieve games like Rogue Squadron Rebel Strik2 3.

Even using compression technology like S3TC( Gamecube made use of it to), would not be enough to achieve the results of the previous games I mentioned.

Gamecube S3TC
http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/

You will also find two videos of Factor 5 games in the previous link

 

[tapionvslink]

And on purpose, these were the first Revolution specs:
http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/23/new-nintendo-revolution-specs/

and these rumored Revolution specs, but we'll just give you what Han Solo says it should feature: a multithreaded PowerPC 2.5 GHz with 256 KB L1 cache and 1 MB of L2 cache (diff from the dual-core 1.8GHz CPU with 512KB L2 cache we heard about before), a Physical Processing Chip (PPU) with 32MB of dedicated RAM, 512MB of system RAM (we heard it would have 256MB of main DRAM before), a custom ATI "RN520" 600MHz CPU with 256MB of RAM (that's about what we'd heard, but 128MB of RAM). Apparently the device will support external resolutions up to 2048 x 1268 though HD support is still as yet undecided, and it will have 7.1 surround, too. Doesn't sound too shabby, but as always get your grain of salt on.

So why did these specs changed that much?
I will cover that later.

 

[tapionvslink]

Ha and I forgot to mention.-

If most of Wii games are true Wii games and not ports, how is it that most of the first Wii games lacked something like antialaising, something that most of Gamecube Games made use of.

Do not forget that achieving antialaising in ps2 was really hard, and even developers argued due that the system did not support it in a direct way.

http://uk.ps2.ign.com/articles/081/081661p1.html

Gamecube antialaising
http://cube.ign.com/articles/090/090003p1.html

 

[DuckThor Evil]

The 3MBytes you are talking about are the ones embedded within the graphics chip, not the eDRAM friend.

eDRAM = embedded ram... Wii has 24MB of 1T-SRAM, 64MB of GDDR3 and 3MB eDRAM + the 512MB flash storage, and that is it! I suggest you stop stending time on something that isn't there.

 

[tapionvslink]

Vegas and napa
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061127/124495/

Xbox 360 eDRAM
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/4929.ars

"The GPU won't be using system memory itself quite as much as one might expect, because it packs 10MB of embedded DRAM right on the package. In fact, the Xbox 360 GPU is really a two-die design, with two chips in a single package on a single substrate. The parent die contains the GPU and memory controller, while the daughter die consists of the 10MB of eDRAM and some additional logic. There's a high-speed 2GHz link between the parent and daughter dies, and Feldstein noted that future revisions of the GPU might incorporate both dies on a single piece of silicon for cost savings.
"

As as we know, both Hollywood and the whole Xbox 360 GPU have two dies.

Remeber these links:
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Wii_Hardware/es
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061127/124495/

 

[tapionvslink]

Any questions then?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The 3MBytes you are talking about are the ones embedded within the graphics chip, not the eDRAM friend.

From your link...

...and the actual GPU with its embedded DRAM...

embedded DRAM == eDRAM! That is, Napa has 3 MB eDRAM. Vegas has 24 MB 1T-SRAM.

As as we know, both Hollywood and the whole Xbox 360 GPU have two dies.

Meaning what? The eDRAM is on Vegas, but not listed in those specs, and Napa has some embedded DRAM (not the eDRAM though) which isn't listed anywhere? That makes no sense based on the specs and visual results for Wii. The eDRAM on Napa is certainly the 3MB eDRAM listed. The only way you could get more eDRAM following your 'two die' theory is if it's on Vegas.

The XB360 daughter-die is eDRAM because the connection between dies is as fast as if the eDRAM were part of the same GPU die. If the two chips are on die but not connected by a 'GPU speed' interconnect, you can't consider it part of the same processor, instead being multiple processors on a single package. Thus though there are two dies in Hollywood, it doesn't mean they are parts of the same processor. It's two processors with two different jobs, condensed onto one package to save costs. Believing Vegas has some extra eDRAM is misguided.

Wii has 3 MB eDRAM for framebuffer and textures, 24 MB 1T SRAM as 'fast' RAM that CPU and GPU access, and 64 MB GDDR3 as 'slow' RAM that CPU and GPU access, as per the official specs. There's no secret pool of eDRAM or any other RAM. This is why Wii's graphics really aren't that hot!

It's impressive the amount of effort you are going to, finding links to follow through your reasoning, but you really are barking up the wrong tree here.

And on purpose, these were the first Revolution specs:
So why did these specs changed that much?

Because they were the made up imagings of Nintendo fans? A PPU as standard when it was a completely unproven tech smacks of chucking in the latest buzz-phrase just to make a 'dream machine'.