Why would nintendo release an underpowered console a year after the release of 360?

[Urian]

I ever have seen the GCN GPU as the equivalent of a GF2 Ultra/GF4MX with a Pixel Shader on it.

 

[Epik]

I have no doubts about the Xbox capability, I have yet see the proof of what you say about the PS2. Especially considering the PS2 takes a hit on polygon count when you start throwing some lights into mix.

right

 

[Qroach]

Ooh-videogames, do a search for Electronic arts console benchmark, and research for yourself. The information is there.

 

[ninzel]

As long as they have 512 MB RAM, having less raw theoretical power will not be as notceable.
If it came out with for example:

2.2 Ghz dual core CPU
400 Mhz (DX 9.5 comparable)VPU
512 MB RAM
Proper DVD sized optical disk.
I think most people at SD would have a hard time seeing the difference. Also with only having to develop for one resolution won't they actually be able to get more graphical detail in at SD, as opposed to 360 and PS3, who will have to lower graphics detail at SD to get a playable framerate at HD??

Add in the 512 MB flashdrive hopefully with a tiny bit allocated for caching, standard wireless controller, built in wi-fi and free online play and you are looking at a very complete and compelling package at $200 USD.

 

[Urian]

The CPU could be a PPE, yesterday I talked with Panajev about the power consumption of a PPE and he said to me that could be around 20 Watts.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

"Falling back on"? I'm not on the back foot here.

I've already gone over this in another Nintendo thread (which I'm sure you've read). What you think of EA's games, of how good they are and how much work they've put in, or what quality of assets they've seen fit to use on a particular game has no bearing on their ability to benchmark the hardware.

Not only that, but developers on this board have made reference to the relative performance of systems before. And surprise surprise, they're broadly in line with what EA found. You can find comments about CPU power, fill rate and probably other stuff too. Do a search. It's fun.

I remember talking to you in the past about Revolution, and saying that it wouldn't fit to Nintendo's MO to take on MS and Sony head to head in terms of power. You seemed rather opposed to this line of thinking, but given Miyamoto's comments quoted in this thread and that fact it's certainly true with the cost-effective GC, are you more comfortable with this idea now?

I know about all there is to know regarding the Flipper/Gekko, but thanks. Why shouldn't benchmarking directly correlate to software btw? I used Madden as a flagship example, but it is far from the only one. So for our largest userbase let's use "inferior" assets? Or is EA extracting the optimal performance that the PS2 has to offer? Primarily every EA GC game is visually superior comparatively speaking, but you know this.

I agree with your power comment function, (regarding the Rev going toe-to-toe w/the 360 & PS3) but again the GC was delayed several times despite spec. finalization due to mainly production problems. 18 months? You're apparently forgetting it was originally slated to launch in mid-to-late 2000. Base your system comparisons off of that timeframe.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

I have no doubts about the Xbox capability, I have yet see the proof of what you say about the PS2. Especially considering the PS2 takes a hit on polygon count when you start throwing some lights into mix.

Yes, he seems to have forgotten that as well as lighting being done in parallel to other functions with no hit to the GC's Cpu.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

As long as they have 512 MB RAM, having less raw theoretical power will not be as notceable.
If it came out with for example:

2.2 Ghz dual core CPU
400 Mhz (DX 9.5 comparable)VPU
512 MB RAM
Proper DVD sized optical disk.
I think most people at SD would have a hard time seeing the difference. Also with only having to develop for one resolution won't they actually be able to get more graphical detail in at SD, as opposed to 360 and PS3, who will have to lower graphics detail at SD to get a playable framerate at HD??

Add in the 512 MB flashdrive hopefully with a tiny bit allocated for caching, standard wireless controller, built in wi-fi and free online play and you are looking at a very complete and compelling package at $200 USD.

Correct, but it'll be $250 if it's a penny ninzel. I also expect the GPU to be quite impressive, people here are underestimating both ATi, Nintendo, NEC, & MoSys.

 

[Urian]

Yes, he seems to have forgotten that as well as lighting being done in parallel to other functions with no hit to the GC's Cpu.

Sorry but he has reason.

The Flipper Rasterizer part is more powerful per clock cycle in the Pixel Shader part than the NV2A (16 Op/pixel against 8 Op/Pixel) but it doesn´t support Effects 2x and when one of this effects is used the hit on the performance is huge.

The other part is the geometry setup. Geometry setup in GCN is less complex than the NV1x series Geometry setup because all the local lights must be done in the second SIMD64 FPU that the Gekko has.

 

[ninzel]

Correct, but it'll be $250 if it's a penny ninzel. I also expect the GPU to be quite impressive, people here are underestimating both ATi, Nintendo, NEC, & MoSys.

I have that feeling as well but Nintendo seems really good at sticking to thier price promises and the $200 or sub $200 price point has been mentioned so many times.
I also agree that the VPU will be more powerful than expected and they will save thier money on a less powerful and less sophisticated CPU. Nintendo probably looks at those very complicated triple and 8 core CPU's the same way it looks at High Definition, overkill at this point. For what the gamer and themselves will get back from adding in a very fast and sophisticated multcore CPU, they loose to much in terms of cost, heat and complication of development.
Quite honestly I would rather them charge a little more, I'm perfectly willing to pay more than $200 if it's a more complete if even a less powerful system than the competitors.

 

[ninzel]

Could you guys point me to all the past analysis of the Gamecube hardware good and bad. I would really love to learn what the tech savvy people learned about it and their opinions.
I did a search on "gamecube specs" but nothing much came up.

 

[Powderkeg]

Correct, but it'll be $250 if it's a penny ninzel. I also expect the GPU to be quite impressive, people here are underestimating both ATi, Nintendo, NEC, & MoSys.

And I think you are overestimating what can be done within a $200 price point while still maintaining profits. If estimates are correct, MS is paying roughly $450 per 360 that they manufacture, so you'll need to shave off $250 worth of hardware for the Revolution if you want to hit a $200 price point and not lose money.

And simply waiting less than 1 year isn't going to make those prices fall that much. Nintendo will be forced to use significantly cheaper hardware.

Will it be fairly impressive for it's price? Yes, but don't be surprised if it's also not severely limited in some areas to compensate.

Specifically, I would be very surprised if the Revolution has over 256MB of RAM, but I'm really expecting closer to 128MB. Nintendo needs to cut a lot of expenses, and using less RAM is the easiest way to do that. In fact, it may be the only way they can be even remotely competative with the CPU and GPU while still hitting that $200 price point.

 

[AlNom]

anyone know prices on 128-bit GDDR3?

 

[jvd]

If estimates are correct, MS is paying roughly $450 per 360 that they manufacture

Where does this number come from ?

This is ohhh 75$ more per unit than the anylist has claimed


You sure this figure isn't for system + hdd + remote + wireless controller + headset + composite cable + ethernet cable ?

 

[mckmas8808]

I also agree that the VPU will be more powerful than expected and they will save thier money on a less powerful and less sophisticated CPU. Nintendo probably looks at those very complicated triple and 8 core CPU's the same way it looks at High Definition, overkill at this point. For what the gamer and themselves will get back from adding in a very fast and sophisticated multcore CPU, they loose to much in terms of cost, heat and complication of development.
Quite honestly I would rather them charge a little more, I'm perfectly willing to pay more than $200 if it's a more complete if even a less powerful system than the competitors.

I think you are underestimating what mulitcore chips can do for a console. If Nintendo shows up with 256 MB of RAM and has a 2.2 Ghz single core CPU to lessen the cost, it WILL show in games. Just because devs will program for SD doesn't mean that there will be no differences.

I hope for Nintendo's sake that they have at least 512 MB of RAM.

 

[ninzel]

I think you are underestimating what mulitcore chips can do for a console. If Nintendo shows up with 256 MB of RAM and has a 2.2 Ghz single core CPU to lessen the cost, it WILL show in games. Just because devs will program for SD doesn't mean that there will be no differences.

I hope for Nintendo's sake that they have at least 512 MB of RAM.

Of course multicore can theoretically do alot for games, the real question is how much will devs actually utilize them and how long will it take them to fully utilize them. Judging by some of the developer comments these multicore chips will be very underutilized and hard to program for.At first they will fall back on what they know in order to get games out in time and on budget and slowly over time learn and integrate their knowledge of these new chips.
Maybe by the end of this gen we will start to see some extensive use of them, but IMO these chips are more at his point for bragging rights and to have something that looks good on paper to wow people on a marketing sheet.
In reality as usual the VPU's and RAM will be the most utilized to create and sell games
The RAM is the most important factor for support and mutiplatform ports. As long as the VPU and RAM is good on REV theywill do fine.

 

[jvd]

I think you are underestimating what mulitcore chips can do for a console. If Nintendo shows up with 256 MB of RAM and has a 2.2 Ghz single core CPU to lessen the cost, it WILL show in games. Just because devs will program for SD doesn't mean that there will be no differences.

I hope for Nintendo's sake that they have at least 512 MB of RAM.

They can allways go with a fast cpu that does alot of icp and has alot of cache .

Being easy to develop for may be able to bridge the gap. Staying with a sd will also help alot .

And of course launching last as it apears they are doing can lead to a very powerfull gpu being in it .

As for ram its cheap enough that i don't see why they wont have 512 megs . Remember 700mhz gdr ram will be even cheaper at that point and that is what they may go for

 

[ninzel]

IMO they will go with something like a simpler dual core 970MP based chip for the REV's CPU.

 

[swaaye]

I also think that multicore is of questionable worth right now. I think that a good single-core chip or a simpler dual core G3-like chip would be the way to go. I doubt you will see the benefits of these in-order multicore CPUs for several years, as has been said by many. And it would continue down the path Nintendo took with Gamecube, in that it would be far simpler to develop for. Going in-order multi-core would be like stepping back to N64-era difficulty instead of refining Gamecube's simplicity philosophy.

 

[mckmas8808]

I also think that multicore is of questionable worth right now. I think that a good single-core chip or a simpler dual core G3-like chip would be the way to go. I doubt you will see the benefits of these in-order multicore CPUs for several years, as has been said by many. And it would continue down the path Nintendo took with Gamecube, in that it would be far simpler to develop for. Going in-order multi-core would be like stepping back to N64-era difficulty instead of refining Gamecube's simplicity philosophy.

Well if Nintendo can tell us and DEVELOPERS what they have we won't have to speculate all the damn time. I hope they go for a simpler single core chip just to see the difference between there machine and the others.