Why the PS3 framebuffer only scales horizontally

[Nesh]

It's a problem if you have a 1080i-only set, in that you're limited to 480p if the game has no 1080p framebuffer support. It's also a problem if you have a cheapo set with a crappy, laggy internal scaler. We're really going over old ground here but it is patently obvious that having an internal scaler that works on all games is clearly a desirable thing to have and if omitting is a deliberate design decision by Sony, it is somewhat short-sighted.

So the consequences of PS3's gimbed scaler exist mostly for old TV sets, whereas the 360 can upscale on any TV set accordingly for best possible image quality, right?

Because I havent noticed any resolution issues on any modern HD TV I ve seen. Both the 360 and PS3 performed similarly.

 

[Crossbar]

I think the issue is mostly an American phenomena where there exist 1080i TV-sets which do not accept 720p input. Those sets seem to be very rare elsewhere. Any TV marked HD-ready should not have any problem accepting a 720p input.

 

[grandmaster]

So the consequences of PS3's gimbed scaler exist mostly for old TV sets, whereas the 360 can upscale on any TV set accordingly for best possible image quality, right?

Because I havent noticed any resolution issues on any modern HD TV I ve seen. Both the 360 and PS3 performed similarly.

There are a hell of a lot of the older CRT-based 1080i sets in the USA. Sure they may well become obsolete in the "ten year life cycle" as patsu reckons but the fact is that most people buy TVs to last them years. It's the one component that will probably out-last the console. And such conjecture is of course cold comfort to the people who own these sets.

Indeed, the sheer notion that buying an HD console that only works some of the time in HD on some displays is quite staggering when you think about it. Could the US cable TV suppliers get away with that?

With regards resolution issues, if you dump it off onto the developer to sort out, you can get some horrific examples of software scaling, like Rainbow Six Vegas for example. Prince of Persia and some other QAA games also look poor in their 1080i/1080p compatibility modes.

In-built scaling as in Xbox 360 has other advantages too - for example compatibility and support for just about every native resolution up to 1080p, allowing for DVI/VGA monitor support. If you're going to go HD with your console, then the idea of getting your HD material on as many HD screens as possible is just common sense.

 

[patsu]

They have probably deliberated about the issue and decided on this path for now.

They will lose some businesses in exchange for the cost saving. As it stands, they are reporting about 24 million install base. If they want, they could standardize on the software scaling solution and share with the developers. It's something they have to prioritize based on their own survey and customer complains.

If Sony has a customer champion or brand manager, then this sort of things would be easier to channel.

 

[Fafalada]

and if omitting is a deliberate design decision by Sony, it is somewhat short-sighted.

I'm more in the camp that it was an implementation bug - all consoles I've known closely enough have shipped with a plethora of hardware bugs that can never be fixed once the thing is out of the gates, some worse then this in terms of implications to developer.

Though I suppose this is one they 'could' tinker with in hw revisions, it's not that different from completely changing video-out circuitry like MS did. Wonder what cost implications really are.

 

[patsu]

That's quite true. Most of the existing 24 million install base probably don't care or know about the problem.

They could rev a version that plug the hole for other customers once they have a better handle on cost.

 

[Xenus]

It'd be interesting to see if they do it with the rumored slim as the change in form factor would make it easy to distinguish which PS3 can or can't use the function.

 

[patsu]

Ha ha, don't get your hope up. To be honest, it doesn't sound high priority for me (I didn't do the survey though ;-)). I use a 720p HDCP monitor and a 1080p TV myself. The new TVs are getting cheaper and cheaper every month. I think the TV price erosion surprises Sony as well.

If I were them, I may invest more in better marketing, software, content, user interface, network and further shrinkages (assuming the survey doesn't raise any alarm). Standardize, or share, the software scaling solution sounds worthwhile though.

 

[Xenus]

I'm not. It just seems like the place they would do it if they were ever going to.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I would insinuate that by doing this, sony is pushing developers to make 1080p games.

I am new to this so be nice

They talk about the scaling in pretty good depth in that interview.

It's always been my belief that Sony has only exposed horizontal scaling in the PS3 for PR reasons. "TrueHD" is a selling point for the console. Starting with Lair (and continued with GT, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, and numerous other games), devs have been hyping their 1080p engines, and in most cases, it really is sharper than 720p, even if it's not a full 1920x1080.

 

[_phil_]

nope ,scaler is just broken.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's quite true. Most of the existing 24 million install base probably don't care or know about the problem.

They could rev a version that plug the hole for other customers once they have a better handle on cost.

Actually it was the PS3 install base that forced Sony to implement some sort of scaling in the first place as there were a LOT of customers that were stuck with 480p on their sets before Sony came up with a work around.

And while it isn't perfect, as least now they aren't completely stuck with 480p all the time.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

I was referring to the problem of not having a complete hardware scaler. The horizontal scaler is already in RSX. The developers will have to code their game specifically for it.

From the users' point of view, most may not care how it's done. I for one don't have the problem. If lot's of user want a complete scaler, then I supposed they should make more noise.

 

[grandmaster]

Um... they do, historically. There are dedicated threads on the official PlayStation forums, lists of games with 1080p modes etc.

Sony is fully aware of the issue BTW, and recommends soft-scaling to developers even if it is not a mandatory TRC.

 

[patsu]

That's what I meant. As long as the horizontal scaler can handle the work with some developer involvement, it may be a low priority to improve it further. It is "just" an entry in the bug tracking database. There may be more urgent and important issues to attend to.

While there are posts in the forums, they may still represent the minority. As you said, Sony is aware of the situation and they'd be managing their pipeline (e.g., Specify scaling into TRC once they have a common solution with the devs).

 

[grandmaster]

You seem to be speculating quite confidentally there and I'm wondering on what basis. Almost three years on from launch and the ratio of games with either native, hardware-scaling or software-scaling support for 1080i/1080p games hasn't really changed much at all. Doesn't this ring any alarm bells? It is far more likely to suggest that three years of getting away with it to all intents and purposes means that little is likely to change going forward.

The Eurogamer face-off features always include 1080p scaling captures where they are supported on PS3 and certainly the workload there hasn't really increased at all.

Sony has the luxury of essentially providing a recommendation for supporting these displays which by and large is supported by their first party product, but the impression I get is that they've basically washed their hands of it otherwise and palmed off the problem to the developers. Are you saying that belatedly sorting out a unifying scaling solution is definitely on the roadmap for the SDK going forward?

 

[Karoshi]

..., but the impression I get is that they've basically washed their hands of it otherwise and palmed off the problem to the developers. Are you saying that belatedly sorting out a unifying scaling solution is definitely on the roadmap for the SDK going forward?

Considering the 1ms figure droped above, there may not be much of a point in doing a separate scaling pass. Folding that pass into the game's postprocessing pass may be the better option. Sony could just provide some sample shader scaling code with different filters for the devs to integrate.

 

[patsu]

You seem to be speculating quite confidentally there and I'm wondering on what basis. Almost three years on from launch and the ratio of games with either native, hardware-scaling or software-scaling support for 1080i/1080p games hasn't really changed much at all. Doesn't this ring any alarm bells? It is far more likely to suggest that three years of getting away with it to all intents and purposes means that little is likely to change going forward.

Speculating ? A software-based solution is already in place, but it requires developer work.

Are you saying that belatedly sorting out a unifying scaling solution is definitely on the roadmap for the SDK going forward?

As you said, Sony is aware of the situation and they'd be managing their pipeline (e.g., Specify scaling into TRC once they have a common solution with the devs).

Haven't you work in a company where low priority bugs get punted off time and time again ? In this case, there is already a workaround for developers. All I'm saying is it's a deliberate decision now, and it's not affecting the majority. Sony may lose some sales in the process, they'd have to revisit the issue if it becomes a bigger problem.

 

[joker454]

Speculating ? A software-based solution is already in place, but it requires developer work.

The problem is that every single game must do it because you never know if a PS3 user has 720p mode "unchecked" and only 1080p enabled. For example, some users are so into the 1080p hype that they will actually disable 720p mode on their PS3 even if their tv supports it. Therefore, cycles must be spent to software upscale on every game. Of course the problem is that a good upscale (comparative to the 360's hardware upscale) takes a lot of gpu processing, so more often than not a quick and dirty upscale solution is put in place. In the end we are left with the peculiar situation where people that have only 1080p (either by choice or by tv limitation) are actually presented with a worse quality image and crappier frame rate, yet they don't know it.

There is also the situation where some devs will try to leverage 1080p to satisfy marketing, and hence will default to upscaled 1080p mode if it's available. Without a hardware scaler though you end up with happy marketing, but a worse frame rate and worse than 720p image quality.

Hardware scaling is also useful if one wants to run at non standard resolutions and just rely on the hardware to supply a high quality final upscale.

The whole situation is bizarre because Sony had tons of 1080i tv's out at launch that didn't support 720p (I had one of those). It lends credence to the theory that internal divisions at Sony really don't talk with each other very much.

 

[patsu]

If scaling doesn't sell hardware, I personally don't see Sony doing more custom hardware in this area. A software solution though inferior is cheaper and will work for all SKUs. I guess we'll see.

Also, 1080p sets are getting cheaper these days. My new undergrad hire bought one without breaking a sweat. Do they still make 1080i TV at all ? Would be interesting to see a survey. It is possible people who care (The early adopters) may have slowly migrated away (You sold your 1080i TV right ?). It's been 3 years since PS3 launched.

If they stick with software scaling, they'd need to follow up with some of the issues you highlighted via video output firmware policy (e.g., exclusive 1080p setting vs 720p game output).

The whole situation is bizarre because Sony had tons of 1080i tv's out at launch that didn't support 720p (I had one of those). It lends credence to the theory that internal divisions at Sony really don't talk with each other very much.

Touche !