Why does my new TV look worse? *spawn

[joker454]

Or perhaps some tv's have better scalers than other ones

Kuro's maybe? I haven't seen the scaler on those. I've seen all the usual suspects, lots of Panasonics, Samsungs, Vizio's, the typical tv's you see at work and in peoples homes. Their scalers work acceptably enough for most probably, but they are still blurrier compared to say the hardware scaler on the 360. I still haven't seen a tv with a scaler better than the 360's for games, but if someone has seen one then by all means post it here, I'd like to see it.

 

[manux]

Sony 42W5500 seems to have pretty good scaler imho.

 

[ninelven]

I completely agree, a 720p source displayed on 1080p displays does not look as good as it does when displayed on a 720p display.

That is just a result of poor scaling.

Native is the way to go.

That depends entirely on the the size of the display in relation to the resolution.

It is not "all down to the scaler" though. The best scaler in the world wont come close to displaying in native res.

You're right; it will be better.

 

[djskribbles]

+1. As I said in another thread, 720p upscaled to 1080p will look better than 720p -> 720p unless the scaler is absolute crap. There isn't any way you can prove otherwise either because no two TV's are alike. But generally speaking, taking a lower resolution and scaling it to a higher resolution will result in a better picture. Furthermore, it's rare to find a 720p native display... all "720p" displays these days are either 1366x768 or 1024x768 so scaling is needed regardless.

If the picture looks worse, it's because the TV is worse, the TV's settings are not set correctly, or again, the scaler is garbage.

 

[SG79]

+1. As I said in another thread, 720p upscaled to 1080p will look better than 720p -> 720p unless the scaler is absolute crap.

That's basically it. Unless we're talking SD upscaling, the scalers in today's TV's are more than adequate, unless we're talking budget sets like Konka or Westinghouse.

That said, my two year old XBR4 does a good job upscaling SD content like DVD's even in comparison to mid-range upscaling DVD players. Old PS1 games (original hardware) look adequate notwithstanding the black level differences between LCD's and CRT's.

 

[joker454]

That is just a result of poor scaling.

I agree. The problem is that I have yet to find a tv that does great scaling. All the popular consumer models that I've had first hand experience with, namely Panasonics, Samsungs and Vizios (three brands which represent a huge chunk of the market) all degrade 720p source on their 1080p displays. I have not tried that Sony model that manux mentions, nor have I tried a Kuro.

That's basically it. Unless we're talking SD upscaling, the scalers in today's TV's are more than adequate, unless we're talking budget sets like Konka or Westinghouse.

The scaling on my Panasonic P65S1 is blurry on PS3 when it's set to 720p mode, you can't miss it, so it's not just budget sets. Same thing with many other Panasonic models.

 

[djskribbles]

The scaling on my Panasonic P65S1 is blurry on PS3 when it's set to 720p mode, you can't miss it, so it's not just budget sets. Same thing with many other Panasonic models.

What are you comparing it to, though?

 

[djskribbles]

It's rarely 100% native so yeah even 720p displays will upscale, but the more the upscale the worse it will be. All the Panasonics, Samsungs, etc that I've seen crappify the image to an extent during the 720->1080 upscale. It's easily noticeable to me but I guess some people can't see it. 720p output on my 1080p is definitely blurrier than the same 720p output to my older 720p plasma, no question about it. Even on the same 1080 tv it's clear that 720 output looks blurrier. Native 1080 of course looks better on the new 1080 tv. Point being that 1080 tv's won't look as good as 720 tv's when displaying 720 material unless they have a very good scaler, which very few do.

What sizes are the two displays?

Also, it could be simply due to the settings you are using on your TV. No two TV's are made the same and most TV's look like shit out of the box.

Or, it could simply be that your 720p display is better than your 1080p display.

The only fair way to compare, would be to have two identical TV's save for the native resolution receiving the same 720p feed. Otherwise, there's literally no way you can compare. If you have two displays that are the same size, technically speaking, a 720p image will look better upscaled to a higher resolution.

This should also be moved to the other thread.

 

[SonComet]

I agree. The problem is that I have yet to find a tv that does great scaling. All the popular consumer models that I've had first hand experience with, namely Panasonics, Samsungs and Vizios (three brands which represent a huge chunk of the market) all degrade 720p source on their 1080p displays. I have not tried that Sony model that manux mentions, nor have I tried a Kuro.




The scaling on my Panasonic P65S1 is blurry on PS3 when it's set to 720p mode, you can't miss it, so it's not just budget sets. Same thing with many other Panasonic models.

Games look perfectly sharp to me in 720p on the ps3 when displaying on a 50pz800u, 1150hd, and 111FD. They are all only 50"es, but the xmb looks like a blurred mess when set to 720p even on the 768p 1150HD. I've never understood why the XMB is so blurry when in 720p mode compared to menus in the actual games. It has always bugged me. If 720p games are abnormally blurry on the 65s1 well I can't explain that as I have never used one in a home environment. The largest TV I've played games on in a home environment with a well set up tv is a 58pz800u and that looked fine to me. Granted it was COD4 on a 360 which isn't the sharpest game in the first place, but it didn't look abnormally blurry for the size of the set to me anyways. Maybe when I get next years 58" model (I have my money saved panasonic, please don't make me wait until august!) I will see what people are talking about on a tv that large.

 

[specwarGP2]

I agree. The problem is that I have yet to find a tv that does great scaling. All the popular consumer models that I've had first hand experience with, namely Panasonics, Samsungs and Vizios (three brands which represent a huge chunk of the market) all degrade 720p source on their 1080p displays. I have not tried that Sony model that manux mentions, nor have I tried a Kuro.

You should try Sony. I have a 40" XBR9 and 720p and 1080p look very close when I compare how XMB looks between those 2 resolutions. There is a little softness in 720p (expected) but the only reason you notice it is because of the text. I seriously doubt I'd be able to tell the difference in a game.

 

[SG79]

The scaling on my Panasonic P65S1 is blurry on PS3 when it's set to 720p mode, you can't miss it, so it's not just budget sets. Same thing with many other Panasonic models.

I've not tested that particular model extensively and other Pannys are just fine, but if you're finding all 720p sources blurry, I'd look into it. Compare other sets of the same model or have a technician check it out (hey, it's under warranty ). For the record, I test TV's at a closer distance than most people place them in their living rooms/theatre rooms.

SonComet mentioned a good point about the PS3 XMB in 720p. It's quite blurry for some reason and in-game is another matter altogether.

Nice TV choice btw.

 

[joker454]

What are you comparing it to, though?

To itself mostly. The 360 makes it pretty easy to test this. Once I got the 1080p tv I had to decide whether to keep the 360 at 720p, or set it to 1080p. So I tried both modes. Because of the 360's hardware scaler, it makes it easy to see the quality of the tv's scaler. I checked on both the dashboard and on games, the comparison being:

1) 720p source -> 360 hardware upscaled to 1080p -> result displayed on 1080p tv
2) 720p source -> tv hardware upscaled to 1080p -> result displayed on 1080p tv

I thought it would take a lot of back and forth to decide which way to go but that was definitely not the case. The 360's scaler is much better than the one in the Panasonic P65S1, on both the dashboard and games, it was no competition. So I set the 360 to 1080p output and all my games are razor sharp. Well...non 600p games that is, MW2 still looks soft.

I finished Assassins Creed 2 on 360 on this tv and it looked super sharp all the way through. Then I switched to Uncharted 2 on PS3 and that's where UC2's softness hit me like a ton of bricks. It simply didn't have the sharpness that AC2 on 360 did. So I a/b'd 720p and 1080p on XMB on the same 1080p tv and the blur was just as obvious as it was on the 360. Except in this case there is nothing I can do about it because the PS3 has no hardware scaler, so I just finished UC2 having it looked soft.

I have two other older tv's as well, a Panasonic 50px60u and a Panasonic 42px60u, both 720p tv's. I tried UC2 on both. On the 50" Panny it got it's sharpness back, UC2 looked sharp and actually looked better on that older 50" 720p tv that it does on my new 1080p tv. This is in contrast to the 360 which looks better on my new 1080p because of it's hardware scaler. I also compared UC2 on the 42" Panasonic to the 50" Panasonic but the 42" didn't look as good, it looked a bit grainier.

I've have done similar checks in the past on tv's at work which are a mish mash of brands, with similar results. The conclusion is that while tv scalers are probably acceptable for most, they still soften the image when doing the 720->1080 upscale, and they are clearly worse than the 360's scaler, for games anyways. I've never had Pioneers or Sony's at work though so I guess I would need to check those someday for curiosity sake.

 

[joker454]

SonComet mentioned a good point about the PS3 XMB in 720p. It's quite blurry for some reason and in-game is another matter altogether.

It's in game as well alas. It's not dvd to blu-ray difference as far as the softness hit, but I definitely see the hit. It's not the end of the world since all my other sources are 1080p (directv, expressvu, 360, pc, etc..), and blu-rays on the PS3 are 1080p native as well. It's only on PS3 exclusive games where I'm taking the softness hit. Alas there doesn't seem much I can do about it For reference, all sources are hdmi to a Sony a/v receiver, then hdmi to the tv, but as far as I know the receiver passes all data unmolested.

 

[SG79]

It's in game as well alas. It's not dvd to blu-ray difference as far as the softness hit, but I definitely see the hit. It's not the end of the world since all my other sources are 1080p (directv, expressvu, 360, pc, etc..), and blu-rays on the PS3 are 1080p native as well. It's only on PS3 exclusive games where I'm taking the softness hit. Alas there doesn't seem much I can do about it For reference, all sources are hdmi to a Sony a/v receiver, then hdmi to the tv, but as far as I know the receiver passes all data unmolested.

I just don't see any noticeable IQ softness in-game at all compared to the XMB (where the icons simply lose their near 3D depth in 720p), though it may have to do with with some image detail options that I have turned on with my set. Or perhaps Sony's scalers are better than Panny's. I'll test things out further and post back if I notice any differences I may have missed out on. I have a feeling that this is partially a case of motion reproduction differences between plasma and LCD; you'd have the upper hand since plasmas are better particularly with regards to sustaining motion resolution.

I'm not familiar with Sony receivers at all, but I assume that they have Faroudja scalers. You'd have to turn it on though, otherwise it's a direct pass (which is naturally better for games of course).

 

[djskribbles]

To itself mostly. The 360 makes it pretty easy to test this. Once I got the 1080p tv I had to decide whether to keep the 360 at 720p, or set it to 1080p. So I tried both modes. Because of the 360's hardware scaler, it makes it easy to see the quality of the tv's scaler. I checked on both the dashboard and on games, the comparison being:

1) 720p source -> 360 hardware upscaled to 1080p -> result displayed on 1080p tv
2) 720p source -> tv hardware upscaled to 1080p -> result displayed on 1080p tv

I thought it would take a lot of back and forth to decide which way to go but that was definitely not the case. The 360's scaler is much better than the one in the Panasonic P65S1, on both the dashboard and games, it was no competition. So I set the 360 to 1080p output and all my games are razor sharp. Well...non 600p games that is, MW2 still looks soft.

I finished Assassins Creed 2 on 360 on this tv and it looked super sharp all the way through. Then I switched to Uncharted 2 on PS3 and that's where UC2's softness hit me like a ton of bricks. It simply didn't have the sharpness that AC2 on 360 did. So I a/b'd 720p and 1080p on XMB on the same 1080p tv and the blur was just as obvious as it was on the 360. Except in this case there is nothing I can do about it because the PS3 has no hardware scaler, so I just finished UC2 having it looked soft.

I have two other older tv's as well, a Panasonic 50px60u and a Panasonic 42px60u, both 720p tv's. I tried UC2 on both. On the 50" Panny it got it's sharpness back, UC2 looked sharp and actually looked better on that older 50" 720p tv that it does on my new 1080p tv. This is in contrast to the 360 which looks better on my new 1080p because of it's hardware scaler. I also compared UC2 on the 42" Panasonic to the 50" Panasonic but the 42" didn't look as good, it looked a bit grainier.

I've have done similar checks in the past on tv's at work which are a mish mash of brands, with similar results. The conclusion is that while tv scalers are probably acceptable for most, they still soften the image when doing the 720->1080 upscale, and they are clearly worse than the 360's scaler, for games anyways. I've never had Pioneers or Sony's at work though so I guess I would need to check those someday for curiosity sake.

Whether the 360's scaler is better than TV scalers is irrelevant. The question is does 720p output look better on a 1080p display or a 720p native display. And again, there's no fair way to compare unless you have two identical TV's except with one being 1080p and the other being 720p. Smaller TV's naturally look sharper. All you really have to compare is 720p going to your 65" S1 and 720P output going to your 50" PX60U, but his isn't a fair comparison in so many ways.

Agree to disagree. We can argue all day, but the fact of the matter is, there's no way to fairly compare.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...And again, there's no fair way to compare unless you have two identical TV's except with one being 1080p and the other being 720p. Smaller TV's naturally look sharper.

If you had two TVs in the same range, only one being a smaller 720p (32") model and one a larger 1080p (40"), and then viewed them from a different distance each so that they occupied the same field-of-view, you could do a 'fair' comparison. Or you could view from distance so the pixel size is the same, and compare the larger screen space experience.

 

[V3]

Panasonics, Samsungs and Vizios

Those are like some of the worst offenders in term of scalers, well to be fair they make good TVs, is just that either signal processing is not their strength or maybe with Bluray and all the HD talk they just don't consider scaler to be that important. I am especially disappointed with Panasonic, since I was looking at their Plasma range.

The salesman told me that some of the newer high end receivers can upscale really well. So I guess if you really need to upscale you can test drive them. Though good upscaling is the last thing I look in a receiver.

 

[Billy Idol]

It's in game as well alas. It's not dvd to blu-ray difference as far as the softness hit, but I definitely see the hit. It's not the end of the world since all my other sources are 1080p (directv, expressvu, 360, pc, etc..), and blu-rays on the PS3 are 1080p native as well. It's only on PS3 exclusive games where I'm taking the softness hit. Alas there doesn't seem much I can do about it For reference, all sources are hdmi to a Sony a/v receiver, then hdmi to the tv, but as far as I know the receiver passes all data unmolested.

Why don't you consider buying a dedicated external hardware scaler? The beamer setup I use to play has a dedicated additional box for scaling...I can't remember how much this box costed and I cannot tell you if it is a better scaler compared to TV scaler, but it is definitively an option?!

 

[green.pixel]

Or you could view from distance so the pixel size is the same

How could it be, when 1080p set has ~2x the pixels?
Is there some kind of "formula" to measure visual acuity and pixel size, but also includes distance as a parameter?

 

[manux]

How could it be, when 1080p set has ~2x the pixels?
Is there some kind of "formula" to measure visual acuity and pixel size, but also includes distance as a parameter?

This should do it