djskribbles
Legend
I don't see what hes talking about either TBH. Regardless, 720p will look better on a 1080p display than it would on a 720p display, assuming everything else was the same.
Why does my new TV look worse? *spawn
- Thread starter djskribbles
- Start date
It's the other way around. 720 will look better on a 720 tv, it will look blurrier on a 1080 tv unless the tv has an amazing scaler which most don't. My brand new 1080 tv has the same issue, XMB looks blurrier when its set to 720 mode compared to 1080 mode, it's easy to see from even 12 feet away.
In any case I'm getting the same thing, the game is looking better in 720 mode which is odd since I have a 1080 tv. The pre-game menus look razor sharp but the game doesn't. I understand some of the deficiencies in 1080 mode, like trees look worse in 1080 compared to 720 because the alpha to coverage has 4xmsaa to work with in 720 mode compared to 2xmsaa in 1080 mode. But the blur in 1080 is a mystery.
brain_stew
Regular
The thing is there really aren't many native 720ps TVs, those advertised as "720p" are almost always either 1366x768 or 1024x768. So you're scaling in both cases, and "in theory" scaling to a higher resolution will give better results but its really down to the individual scaler used in each specific case. Its why "720p" TVs really aren't a great buy as they have to scale all content you feed them, which is really far from ideal.
As to the reason the "1080p" capture is blurrier than the 720p image, its because its a 1280x1080 rendered 3D image horizontally scaled (by RSX) to 1920x1280. Whilst the 720p image outputs its 1280x720 rendered image directly without scaling. If you were to then scale that 720p image to 1080p (as it would on 1080p TV) it would appear even more blurry than the 1080p image.
djskribbles
Legend
The majority of displays have adequate scalers, so in most cases, 720p will look better on a 1080 display. Generally, the more lines of resolution the display has, the better in terms of the standard HD resolutions. Your example isn't quite the same as 720p on a 720p display vs 720p on a 1080p display... you're outputting both resolutions to the same 1080 display so of course 1080p is gonna look better.
Furthermore, as brain_stew else already mentioned, 100% of "720p" displays made in the last 3-4 years aren't even 1280x720. The last displays that I recall with this resolution, were some DLP rear protection TV's. 720p displays are usually 1366x768 or sometimes 1024x768 (42" Plasmas).
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I dont know if this is off topic or something, but I've been looking for a place to put it. I just got a 42" 1080P LCD which replaced my prior 720P (1366X768) model. The gist is, I dont know if it's just the large size blowing up the flaws, or the non-native resolution but games look much worse. A particular offender is ODST. Now maybe I see why people complain about the lack of AA in that game, but it never looked that bad on my smaller set. Now, it looks almost terrible.
Also, as to your comment about 1366 sets, somehow I think the small scaling 720P>768P isn't exactly in the same league as a 720P>1080P scale. Also, there are 720P native LCD's, albeit rare. My brother has one, bought in the last five years.
I simply fail to see how people on B3D can nitpick the smallest IQ issues, when the fact is most people are playing 720P content on 1080P fixed pixel displays, which is going to override every other IQ issue by a factor of about 10X. It's kind of ridiculous. Sure, once you're "used to it", you probably dont notice, and it's something an "average joe" wont care about either, but it's real and it's huge.
If you dont believe this, set your PC to 2/3 of your LCD monitors native res, let it upscale the rest, and see how that treats you.
brain_stew
Regular
Its the larger size, guaranteed. If you've moved from say a 32" display, the screen on your new TV is more than twice as big, so you'd need better than 1080p resolution to maintain the same pixel pitch.
You'd think so, but no, in theory having more pixels should equate to a better scaled image, though in reality its all down to the quality of the scaling hardware in the specific TV set. Since 1080p models tend to be higher end and pricier, they'll usually receive the better scaling hardware.
TVs have much better quality scalers than monitors, this comparison really is relevant and again, 95%+ of HDTVs will all be scaling 720p content anyway so the point is moot.
As to GT5, well I'm pleased there's at least an option to remove the temporal AA, I've had nothing but bad impressions of previous implementations, though I'd like to see this one in motion, I can imagine it looking deeply distracting.
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It is not "all down to the scaler" though. The best scaler in the world wont come close to displaying in native res. Anyway, I use the 360 to scale, figuring it might do a better job.
Perhaps you are right about the much larger screen bringing out the flaws. I do not obviously have a large 720P set to test. Of course none are made. It's a bit of a moot point. The good thing is that next gen should be along in a couple years to bring native 1080P games.
user542745831
Veteran
So screenshots will always look the same, regardless if captured at 'Normal' or 'Flicker reduction' image quality mode?
Will they always look as if 'Flicker reduction' image quality mode (same image quality mode as in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue as you said) was used, even if another image quality mode was selected?
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brain_stew
Regular
Obviously, but then that goes without saying. The point is though that there's very, very few HDTVs that are native 720p, so its not really an argument worth making. You're seriously underestimating the impact of having a screen nearly three times as large.
As to next gen. sorting the "problem" out, well the PC will do that for you today for about $500-$600 with cheaper games.
Rangers, have you tried setting your tv to 1:1 pixel mapping, with any fancy image processing modes turned off? Probably won't make much difference, but at least you'll know where you stand.
I use a monitor with what has always seemed to be a pretty good scaler (compared to other monitors - and miles better than the crap built in to Nvidia graphics cards), and I set it to produce quite a sharp upscaled image as that's normally what I prefer. Halo 3 almost had me reaching to turn up the softness though ...
If you buy every game new, PC can work out quite a bit cheaper. If you borrow games from friends, buy second hand (not just from shops) and sell or trade in your old games, console gaming can work out quite a bit cheaper than PC gaming. So the best thing is to have both a console and PC, IMO.
DRM might only stop a small proportion of pirates, but limited activations kills outright the second hand market and even worse, lending games to all your chums. It's no wonder that Sony and MS (and all their publisher chums) are keenly eyeing up a DD future.
I use a monitor with what has always seemed to be a pretty good scaler (compared to other monitors - and miles better than the crap built in to Nvidia graphics cards), and I set it to produce quite a sharp upscaled image as that's normally what I prefer. Halo 3 almost had me reaching to turn up the softness though ...
As to next gen. sorting the "problem" out, well the PC will do that for you today for about $500-$600 with cheaper games.
If you buy every game new, PC can work out quite a bit cheaper. If you borrow games from friends, buy second hand (not just from shops) and sell or trade in your old games, console gaming can work out quite a bit cheaper than PC gaming. So the best thing is to have both a console and PC, IMO.
DRM might only stop a small proportion of pirates, but limited activations kills outright the second hand market and even worse, lending games to all your chums. It's no wonder that Sony and MS (and all their publisher chums) are keenly eyeing up a DD future.
djskribbles
Legend
Something that makes aliasing more pronounced is the sharpness setting and/or the edge enhancement setting. Try turning the sharpness down to 0 and disable EE if enabled.
Not all TV's are alike, but assuming everything else was the same, a calibrated 1080p display should look better than a calibrated 720p.
Not all TV's are alike, but assuming everything else was the same, a calibrated 1080p display should look better than a calibrated 720p.
Are you sure your settings are correct? My ISF calibrated 1150HD looks worse than a friends calibrated 111FD and mine is 768p and his is 1080p (it doesn't look better in terms of resolution from our 8-9 foot seating distance, just contrast which makes a huge difference). I guess my point is that between those two fairly similar models the greater resolution of the 1080p set did not make 720p material look worse. The only LCD TV I've ever gamed on is a calibrated 52B750 and it looked great. Worse than my pioneer and even my panasonic 50pz800u though.
djskribbles
Legend
Yeah, most TV's look terrible out of the box. A basic setup disc is essential to get decent picture quality. Better yet, get it ISF calibrated or buy the necessary equipment (colorimeter with software etc.) and do it yourself. Even the best TV's have to be calibrated. It's not like Pioneer Kuro Elite Plasmas (the best TV money can buy) are accurate out of the box.
It's rarely 100% native so yeah even 720p displays will upscale, but the more the upscale the worse it will be. All the Panasonics, Samsungs, etc that I've seen crappify the image to an extent during the 720->1080 upscale. It's easily noticeable to me but I guess some people can't see it. 720p output on my 1080p is definitely blurrier than the same 720p output to my older 720p plasma, no question about it. Even on the same 1080 tv it's clear that 720 output looks blurrier. Native 1080 of course looks better on the new 1080 tv. Point being that 1080 tv's won't look as good as 720 tv's when displaying 720 material unless they have a very good scaler, which very few do.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
I think you are wrong on the size calculation, I'm getting 1.72 times bigger, still I would agree with conclusion that the screen size is what's killing the image quality for Rangers.
Edit: In order to get 2x screen size, the TV's diagonal lenght has to increase about 41%. Going from 32" to 42" is only about 31%.
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Billy Idol
Legend
I have the same problem and I think it is just due to the larger size: that is why I often have to switch to my 42" TV, because on the other setup (beamer + ca. 2x3 m screen) flaws such as image quality get exaggerated to an unacceptable limit!
The first game I really recognized that there is something extremely wrong was HALO3, where they stated 1080p and I was eager to try this with my HDMI elite and the new 1080 beamer setup...that was the first time I started a google search about HALO3 image quality and end up in this forum with the right explanation
So I expect that I have to wait for next-gen to get better IQ and to fully appreciate my 1080p setup...
The first game I really recognized that there is something extremely wrong was HALO3, where they stated 1080p and I was eager to try this with my HDMI elite and the new 1080 beamer setup...that was the first time I started a google search about HALO3 image quality and end up in this forum with the right explanation
So I expect that I have to wait for next-gen to get better IQ and to fully appreciate my 1080p setup...
If you can, try and fool the TV into thinking it's getting a PC source. Usually this can be done if the first HDMI also can be set as a DVI input (no difference really).
On my TV it only works on the first HDMI, and when I set the xbox to the native resolution of the TV (1360x768).
At 1280x720, Even with all the processing turned off, game mode (etc) the difference is huge. The colours are off, it seems much blurrier - and there is still a trace of dynamic contrast. Comparing a game like Geometry Wars is quite shocking in that it's noticeably harder to play.
Sure it's a cheap TV, but still. You would think a 'pure' mode would be very easy to implement.
Pity the PS3 can't output native resolution.
On my TV it only works on the first HDMI, and when I set the xbox to the native resolution of the TV (1360x768).
At 1280x720, Even with all the processing turned off, game mode (etc) the difference is huge. The colours are off, it seems much blurrier - and there is still a trace of dynamic contrast. Comparing a game like Geometry Wars is quite shocking in that it's noticeably harder to play.
Sure it's a cheap TV, but still. You would think a 'pure' mode would be very easy to implement.
Pity the PS3 can't output native resolution.
I completely agree, a 720p source displayed on 1080p displays does not look as good as it does when displayed on a 720p display. If you have a PS3 then you are screwed because there is little you can do about it, all your gaming will look blurrier when you get a 1080p display since most games are 720p. I just switched tv's as well, from a 720p to a 1080p, and PS3 games all look blurrier now. It doesn't affect the 360 since you can set its hardware scaler to 1080p and hence keep all games at the tv's native 1080p res, so all 360 games still look sharp. But I tested it on the 360 as well just to see, I set it to 720p and sure enough it looked blurry as well on my 1080 screen, so I leave it at 1080p mode to keep everything clear.
I'm shocked that some people can't notice the blur, but then again some people can't tell the different between dvd and blu-ray and others seem to like quinqunx, so I guess it's not a huge surprise. But it will look worse, I've noticed it on many Panasonics and Samsungs. Native is the way to go.
