Why are handhelds so.......weak?

[Crazyace]

flat shaded...

I know what I mean when I say slow - as a programmer it was always more difficult to pull data into VDP1 memory, especially as the display lists had to live there as well. ( PS1 had an advantage that display lists lived in main memory.. )
Many things have been touted as being arcade perfect when all that is true is that they are more true to the arcade than other similar games...
But at the time the 4M cartridge gave the best capcom games...



Regarding VF2, OK - when I say flat shaded I actually mean not shaded at all ( Just put it on again just to make sure that my memory hadn't given up on me... )

Regarding latency - I'm sorry if I dont believe you, I'd rather believe the chip documentation.... - the latency in clock cycles was far higher, mainly because the R4300 was clocked 3 times faster than the PS1, however the real killer was the unified memory system, where frame buffer and Z buffer also hit main memory ( If you didn't use a Z buffer you could get much more out of the N64, as there were no longer the RMW issues... )

Yup it was 5 scroll planes at zero hit, but the memory was the biggest advantage, as running 5 scroll planes wouldn't take a huge hit on the PS1...( The Mode 7 style rotating playfields were excellent, but the 'true' transparency sucked in reality )

About Dracula X - maybe the reason it attempts to do everything on VDP1 was because they couldn't do the effects on VDP2 - Hey, if they replaced the 3D backgrounds with 2D and reduced the complexity of the sprites they could have done it on the SNES


Again, playing Quake on Saturn ( couldn't find quake 2 PS version.. ) it is pretty reasonable, but the characters suck big time...

Regarding the graphically way behind comment - I haven't played Shining force - but I do know the technical limitations, which were crippling in some ways - especially the gourard shading and lack of dithering, one area where the PS1 shot ahead... just compare Sega Rally to Ridge Racer 4 - or even Daytona CCE to the Ridge Racer full speed version found packed with RR4 ( which ran at 60Hz 320x480 - very nice )

 

[Tagrineth]

Re: flat shaded...

I know what I mean when I say slow - as a programmer it was always more difficult to pull data into VDP1 memory, especially as the display lists had to live there as well. ( PS1 had an advantage that display lists lived in main memory.. )
Many things have been touted as being arcade perfect when all that is true is that they are more true to the arcade than other similar games...
But at the time the 4M cartridge gave the best capcom games...

But the speed of copying doesn't tell the whole story.

And have you played Street Fighter Zero 3 on Saturn?

Regarding VF2, OK - when I say flat shaded I actually mean not shaded at all ( Just put it on again just to make sure that my memory hadn't given up on me... )

It uses some pretty good textures though.

Regarding latency - I'm sorry if I dont believe you, I'd rather believe the chip documentation.... - the latency in clock cycles was far higher, mainly because the R4300 was clocked 3 times faster than the PS1, however the real killer was the unified memory system, where frame buffer and Z buffer also hit main memory ( If you didn't use a Z buffer you could get much more out of the N64, as there were no longer the RMW issues... )

Unpredictable performance = defies chip documentation.

Yup it was 5 scroll planes at zero hit, but the memory was the biggest advantage, as running 5 scroll planes wouldn't take a huge hit on the PS1...( The Mode 7 style rotating playfields were excellent, but the 'true' transparency sucked in reality )

There's a difference between zero hit and not taking a huge hit, especially if you're doing a lot in the foreground.

About Dracula X - maybe the reason it attempts to do everything on VDP1 was because they couldn't do the effects on VDP2 - Hey, if they replaced the 3D backgrounds with 2D and reduced the complexity of the sprites they could have done it on the SNES

No, the game's literally much too big for SNES.

But anyway, they wouldn't have needed to reduce sprite complexity, just replace background effects. In fact, if they'd replaced some of the 3D backgrounds with 2D animations (for example, the lava down in the abandoned mine could be done on a "Mode 7" plane), they could have LEFT the sprites at full quality without having to replace transparency effects. =)

Again, playing Quake on Saturn ( couldn't find quake 2 PS version.. ) it is pretty reasonable, but the characters suck big time...

I suppose, but consider that Saturn Quake doesn't slow down either. =)

Regarding the graphically way behind comment - I haven't played Shining force - but I do know the technical limitations, which were crippling in some ways - especially the gourard shading and lack of dithering, one area where the PS1 shot ahead... just compare Sega Rally to Ridge Racer 4 - or even Daytona CCE to the Ridge Racer full speed version found packed with RR4 ( which ran at 60Hz 320x480 - very nice )

Technical limitations aren't the most useful things in the world. Shining Force 3's visual majesty defies explanation - one theory is that it's one of the VERY few Saturn games to use non-coplanar vertices. =) And using convex/concave quads properly could easily have Saturn rivalling even modern consoles in visual quality. Though they'd be INCREDIBLY painful to sort. ^_^;

 

[Crazyace]

Just looked at Shining force 3 screens ( about 150 different views ) and there's not much there that's impressive.. maybe compared to SNES, but definitely not current machines... just looks like low poly models on top of mode 7 floors, with sprite characters. If you have any screenshots that you believe support your claims I'd love to see them ( I'm not really buying Saturn games these days - it only came out of the cupboard today because of the comments about VF2.. )
Lots of games used non coplaner quads - pretty much a mainstay of 3DO and Saturn rasteriser..
Haven't played SFZ3 on Saturn - never really much of a fan - got Xmen and Xmen vs Street Fighter though.. enjoyed them both - Virtua Cop 2 and Sega Rally were the reason to buy the Saturn...

The trouble with your zero hit argument, is that if there is a 25% hit to achieve that effect, but general foreground operations are twice as fast you are still better off.

Last Bronx had a much better implementation of the VF2 engine - the ring no longer seems to be floating , but the characters are very blocky - and when it frames out you see the dreaded interlacing problems...

 

[Tagrineth]

Just looked at Shining force 3 screens ( about 150 different views ) and there's not much there that's impressive.. maybe compared to SNES, but definitely not current machines... just looks like low poly models on top of mode 7 floors, with sprite characters. If you have any screenshots that you believe support your claims I'd love to see them ( I'm not really buying Saturn games these days - it only came out of the cupboard today because of the comments about VF2.. )

Did you look at Scenario 1, 2, or 3?

Also I guarantee the characters aren't exactly low-poly... you can see the models and such way up close on the SF3 Premium Disc, which gives you options much like Panzer Dragoon Orta's dictionary-thing.

Lots of games used non coplaner quads - pretty much a mainstay of 3DO and Saturn rasteriser..

No... they didn't. The working Saturn emulators that use hardware acceleration convert the quads to simple pairs of two triangles, and from what I've seen, everything still looks like it should in nearly all supported games... which would NOT be the case if "lots of games" used curved quads.

Ideally they'd be rather common, as the visual impact can be pretty tremendous.

Haven't played SFZ3 on Saturn - never really much of a fan - got Xmen and Xmen vs Street Fighter though.. enjoyed them both - Virtua Cop 2 and Sega Rally were the reason to buy the Saturn...

SFZ3 is more or less totally identical to the arcade version.

The trouble with your zero hit argument, is that if there is a 25% hit to achieve that effect, but general foreground operations are twice as fast you are still better off.

Depends on how you do things, and what kind of operations you're talking about. 3D? Yes, Saturn loses. 2D? Not so sure in all situations.

Last Bronx had a much better implementation of the VF2 engine - the ring no longer seems to be floating , but the characters are very blocky - and when it frames out you see the dreaded interlacing problems...

Note to self, find and grab Last Bronx... (I think I saw it on an FTP the other day, hmm)

 

[Rockman]

I mean, look at the poly counts, they´re obviously very, very, very low, the complexity of the scene is quite poor, there´s no signs of the special effects that could be used in PSX, I don´t want to know how crappy the collision detection must be, nor the framerate the thing is running at. The color pallette used also lacks any sort of variety, etc, etc, etc. All in all, it looks terrible, I really don´t know how someone can think that approaches PSX graphics.

I don´t even want to know how it sounds either.

60fps, solid.

And I did say roughly; I know PSX games tend to look a heck of a lot better than that.

Pocketeers are using a combination of tris and quads. =) And how much of it did you look at? Obviously not much; the colour palettes are just fine, especially in the Football mini-video (numerous different-coloured ads, lots of people on the field...).

I tend to agree with you most people have forgotten how bad ps graphics were. Too much fmv has made them forget they should dust off the ps and fire it up because what I am seeing on the website definately compares to the 1st and maybe 2nd gen ps games.

 

[Rockman]

Lastly, Nintendo is getting ready a new FX technology for the GBA, important to those who were around for it the first time

Edited for the mentally challenged

 

[PC-Engine]

Lastly Nintendo is getting ready a new FX technology for those who were around for it

8)

 

[Tsmit42]

Final Fantasy 9 for ps1.
http://psxmedia.ign.com/media/previews2/image/ff9usa/ff9_409.jpg

Summoner for Ps2
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/summoner/summoner_9.jpg


I know that Final Fantasy used pre-rendered backgrounds and summoner didn't, but the fact that Summoner for Ps2 doesn't look much better remains the same.

 

[zurich]

Lastly Nintendo is getting ready a new FX technology for those who were around for it

 

[Tagrineth]

Look up SuperFX.

 

[marconelly!]

I know that Final Fantasy used pre-rendered backgrounds and summoner didn't, but the fact that Summoner for Ps2 doesn't look much better remains the same.

Yeah, and I guess when one day we get a game with realtime graphics rivaling that of FF:TSW, you will be saying "but I had just the same visuals on my 10 years old DVD player!"

You honestly have to be blind to not see the enormous jump from the PS1 graphics to PS2. Either that or to be joking.

And using convex/concave quads properly could easily have Saturn rivalling even modern consoles in visual quality.

Pllllease... do you even hear what you are saying? Don't make that poor Saturn into some kind of divine miracle, when we know all too well how poorly it's hardware was designed for 3D graphics. We can theorize all day what could or could not be done, but even if the theoretical limit of that hardware was achieved, it would be incredibly poor for today's 3D graphics standards. Jump from any 3D game on Saturn/PSX to even Dreamcat 1st gen games was just mindnumbingly big.

 

[Tagrineth]

And using convex/concave quads properly could easily have Saturn rivalling even modern consoles in visual quality.

Pllllease... do you even hear what you are saying? Don't make that poor Saturn into some kind of divine miracle, when we know all too well how poorly it's hardware was designed for 3D graphics. We can theorize all day what could or could not be done, but even if the theoretical limit of that hardware was achieved, it would be incredibly poor for today's 3D graphics standards. Jump from any 3D game on Saturn/PSX to even Dreamcat 1st gen games was just mindnumbingly big.

True enough, there would be no texture filtering.

But with heavy use of curved quads, you could get 100% smoothly curved surfaces (not possible with triangles, unless you use one heck of a lot of them).

Also remember that Saturn is capable of full res, which PSX couldn't and N64 couldn't quite do. =)

I know it's a long shot, but it's possible, if you get coders and artists skilled enough. And it'd probably be nothing better than a demo.

 

[zurich]

Look up SuperFX.

I know what the SuperFX chips were, but I had no idea wtf Rockman was saying. That sentence was grammatically challenged

So in otherwords, Nintendo's cooking up another SuperFX chip for the GBA?

 

[marconelly!]

True enough, there would be no texture filtering.

No filtering of any kind, even the basic bi-linear. Does Saturn at least have perspective corrected texture mapping? I know PSX doesn't...

But with heavy use of curved quads, you could get 100% smoothly curved surfaces (not possible with triangles, unless you use one heck of a lot of them).

Yeah but what would you model with those curved surfaces? How much you can control that curvature? The way I see it, that would be a modeling nightmare, and would probably result in completely unpredictable results - or even if pulled off properly - why do you think it would look very good? Some nicely curved surfaces, big deal when the poly count and texturing is pathetic compared to today's games...

Also remember that Saturn is capable of full res, which PSX couldn't and N64 couldn't quite do. =)

Well, if the best it could do in that res was VF2... I mean just look at it for goodness sake, that game looks sooooo old for today's standards.[/quote]

 

[Tagrineth]

No filtering of any kind, even the basic bi-linear. Does Saturn at least have perspective corrected texture mapping? I know PSX doesn't...

Not really. It doesn't "Map textures" per se - each quad IS a single texture. So basically, it's perspective-correct as long as you align the quads correctly. And the quads are projected with accurate perspective as long as the calculation is right.

Yeah but what would you model with those curved surfaces? How much you can control that curvature? The way I see it, that would be a modeling nightmare, and would probably result in completely unpredictable results - or even if pulled off properly - why do you think it would look very good? Some nicely curved surfaces, big deal when the poly count and texturing is pathetic compared to today's games...

Curve can be controlled by distance between vertices and selective sorting.

And poly count wouldn't be that big a deal, since most of the polys of today's games are from approximating curves, whereas Saturn could just do a perfect curve with one quad. =)

The texturing is great though, by the way. Minus the lack of filtering that is. Some Saturn games have incredible textures, and they don't seem to have as much of a 'Horribly grainy' problem as PSX's.

Well, if the best it could do in that res was VF2... I mean just look at it for goodness sake, that game looks sooooo old for today's standards.

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure there are other games that use full res, though I haven't encountered any offhand. There are other games that use the VF2 engine, BTW. And VF2 uses planar quads only.

 

[Tsmit42]

Dude, I the big difference of PS2 and PS1 games. All I was trying to say is that crappy developers came make a good system look just as bad as great quality last gen games using certain methods. Now if you look at some title like Tekken Tag, then you will see a very big gap.

 

[marconelly!]

And poly count wouldn't be that big a deal, since most of the polys of today's games are from approximating curves, whereas Saturn could just do a perfect curve with one quad. =)

The texturing is great though, by the way. Minus the lack of filtering that is. Some Saturn games have incredible textures, and they don't seem to have as much of a 'Horribly grainy' problem as PSX's.

10-20MPolys/sec on today's consoles vs. 100x less than that on Saturn And no, you cannot model everything using curves, nor would it really matter than much in the end, even if you could. 20-50MB memory for textures vs. 10x less than that on Saturn... I say, just look even at 1st gen DC games, and don't fool yourself

 

[chaphack]

Saga Frontier 2 and Legend o Mana have good PS1 2D graphics, if that means anything

 

[Almasy]

So, finally someone outdid the sillyness of Lazy8s´s Shenmue arguement, I never thought I´d see the day.

 

[Crazyace]

Definitely rose tinted hindsight

Tagrineth:

The method that Saturn uses to distort sprites is only really good at generating 'bow tie' shapes - not general curves ( You would find it impossible to generate a spherical shape.. ) Maybe you are getting confused with the NV1 - A PC based graphics card that generated quadratic surfaces, which had saturn compatible joystick pads...

Saturn poly's have problems clipping as well, with front plane clipping looking worse than PS1 in many games , and if you think the texture mapping is perspective correct you are spending too much time looking at emulators.. For a good comparision look at Burning Rangers or Last Bronx against Spyro or Tekken 3....

Full res dropped the bit depth of polygons to 8bits - so things like gourard shading disappeared - not useful for 3D if you want lighting...

PS1 could generate a full res screen pretty easily - but most games didn't generate full overscanned displays as there was no need - ( Also a lot of games converted from NTSC to PAL had borders - a problem found on many consoles... ) There wasn't much difference between 640x480 NTSC or 704x576 NTSC if most of the extra info would be lost in the border areas...

A Saturn with enough memory will produce good ( almost perfect ) versions of older titles such as SF3 etc - but I think it would choke on something like guilty gear X - However a PS1 , with ENOUGH MEMORY to hold the animation frames, would be able to render the visuals...