Who Says Nvidia faster in Doom3?

How's that ancient mud slinging document related to the issue at hand anyway?

Is it Carmack's or NVIDIA's fault that ATI hasn't paid enough attention in the Z/stencil part of their chips?

Yes it is going to be released next year which by the time ATI will have next generation hardware out and won't have a problem with it most likely. If then Radeons turn out to be faster under all conditions against NV's sollution will your theory still stand?
 
With everything said, what should I buy? A radeon or an Nvidia card?
I feel if I buy Nvidia will be a card just for Doom3, nothing else..... with ATI I think i can enjoy different games with max quality... What do you think? :?:
 
Ailuros said:
How's that ancient mud slinging document related to the issue at hand anyway?

It doesn't. It just makes an amusing reference to how far Doom3 has been delayed so far. Alongside contemporaries like Giants:CK and B&W... ;)

russo121 said:
I feel if I buy Nvidia will be a card just for Doom3, nothing else.....

Well, also anything else using that engine, of course. ^_^

Though just using the engine doesn't mean games will make as extensive use of stencil shadowing, so the performance gap may end up being the same as usual. <shrugs>
 
If Carmack is using 12 bit for the nv30 path, why not use fixed function for the ATI cards too? How high does ATI's fixed function go? 8 bit? If 12bit is good enough for nv30 why isn't 8 bit good enough?


Not that I really want to see him do this. Just curious.
 
jjayb said:
If Carmack is using 12 bit for the nv30 path, why not use fixed function for the ATI cards too? How high does ATI's fixed function go? 8 bit? If 12bit is good enough for nv30 why isn't 8 bit good enough?


Not that I really want to see him do this. Just curious.

Because ATI's fixed function is not inherently faster than it's floating point. (Or said another way, ATI's floating point is not inherently slower than it's fixed function.)

Actually, he already doies have a fixed point path for the R300 cards...the R200 path. IIRC, radeons have 16 bit fixed point precision.
 
So what you are saying is that they could use fixed point *IF* their fixed point path was full 32-bit. Since it's 16-bit, it wouldn't have the precision. Correct?

-M
 
How's that ancient mud slinging document related to the issue at hand anyway?

How long the game has been delayed, and the hardware that was supposed to run it :D
I look at this way, Carmack is endorsing a inferior chipset as the 'DOOM 3 Card to have'. It is inferior in so many ways, from IQ, FSAA, Pixel Shader Power. Now what IF all devlopers took the marketing deal money, not because its 'better' but just simple cash payout..

Now we have the market flooded with inferior graphic processors all based off...money. Games optimized for FX and FP 16 formats.

I look forward to see HL2's shadows and lighting.
 
Mr. Blue said:
So what you are saying is that they could use fixed point *IF* their fixed point path was full 32-bit. Since it's 16-bit, it wouldn't have the precision. Correct?

-M

Not sure I get your question.

R300 doesn't physically have any fixed point pipelines. It's floating point 24 pipeline accepts fixed point data (required for backwards compatibility.)

In any case, FX12 and FX16 are perfectly fine for just about all of Doom3 rendering. There won't be too much of a quality difference between what R300 produces, NV30, and what R200 produces for that matter.
 
Mr. Blue said:
So what you are saying is that they could use fixed point *IF* their fixed point path was full 32-bit. Since it's 16-bit, it wouldn't have the precision. Correct?

-M

From previous comments, Carmack noted that R200 was the fastest path on ATi cards, but ARB2 didn't run much slower, so most developers would choose to take the quality enhancements for a slight dip. This being the case, I would agree with most developers. There might be a few situations to use R200 for specific enhancements, but it doesn't seem necessary nor particularly desirous for the DX9 products. (Perhaps moreso when lower-end products get DX9 functionality and need to concentrate more of delivering proper framerate.)
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Not sure I get your question.

R300 doesn't physically have any fixed point pipelines. It's floating point 24 pipeline accepts fixed point data (required for backwards compatibility.)

Thanks, you answered it.:)

-M
 
Doomtrooper said:
I look at this way, Carmack is endorsing a inferior chipset as the 'DOOM 3 Card to have'.

Yes and no.

It's certainly inferior in floating point performance. That doesn't make it inferior for his game.

Where consumers will get "confused" about which cards are "the best at bleeding edge games", will be the likely assumption that Doom3 requires the latest "tech", because well, it's "an Id engine." This is very untrue.

Doom3 requires old, DX7 level tech....but requires that it be very, very fast.

By design, the best card for Doom3, is not necessarily the best for DX9 games.

The best cards for doom3:

1) Most effective multitexturing fill-rate
2) Most bandwidth
3) Support for fast stencil
4) Support for fast "fixed function dot-3 shading"

Those have little to do with DX9 capability.

The current 5900 has more multitextured fill-rate, more bandwidth, equal (maybe better?) stencil support, and fast dot-3 shading when in integer / fixed funtion precision. So it's not surprisng that the FX (with current specs) would beat a 9800 Pro by an amount that the fill-rate / bandwidth specs would suggest.

What's really interesting in this regard, is the Volari duo V8. It has TONS of raw pixel fill rate, this could potentially make it a very intersting doom3 card if carmack makes a special path for it. (And if XGI exposes special extensions for him to do so.)

If carmack doesn't make a special path for it, it will be forced to use the ARB2 path (floating point) to be fully featured, which might cut its performance in half.

...Now we have the market flooded with inferior graphic processors all based off...money. Games optimized for FX and FP 16 formats.

I wouldn't worry about it. Half-Life is going to be a staple in benchmarks much like Doom3, and Half-Life is basically here now. These two benchmarks represent a nice contrast: performance in highly stressful "old architecture" apps (Doom3), and performance in new tech apps (Half-Life).
 
It's certainly inferior in floating point performance. That doesn't make it inferior for his game.

Doom3 requires old, DX7 level tech....but requires that it be very, very fast.

By design, the best card for Doom3, is not necessarily the best for DX9 games.

The best cards for doom3:

1) Most effective multitexturing fill-rate
2) Most bandwidth
3) Support for fast stencil
4) Support for fast "fixed function dot-3 shading"

Does it means the goodies like HDR and others will not be used? Is this an updated quake3 engine with shadows or more than that?
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Doomtrooper said:
...Now we have the market flooded with inferior graphic processors all based off...money. Games optimized for FX and FP 16 formats.

I wouldn't worry about it. Half-Life is going to be a staple in benchmarks much like Doom3, and Half-Life is basically here now. These two benchmarks represent a nice contrast: performance in highly stressful "old architecture" apps (Doom3), and performance in new tech apps (Half-Life).

*cough*

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7942

I hope this isn't a trend........ :?
 
Doom 3 will be faster on NV hardware primarily due to the optimized stencil operations that the new GFFX line make possible. It's not really a DX 8 or 9 title, pixel shaders are only used to collapse passes.

NV took a gamble, and thought that most game engines would be like Doom 3 around now and built hardware that supported that kind of usage (primarily _fast_ stencil ops).

If Doom 3 had come out half a year ago, everybody would be talking about how ATI has some catching up to do.

Alas HL2 comes out before D3 and the situation looks like it does.

Cheers
Gubbi
 
Doomtrooper said:
How's that ancient mud slinging document related to the issue at hand anyway?

How long the game has been delayed, and the hardware that was supposed to run it :D
I look at this way, Carmack is endorsing a inferior chipset as the 'DOOM 3 Card to have'. It is inferior in so many ways, from IQ, FSAA, Pixel Shader Power. Now what IF all devlopers took the marketing deal money, not because its 'better' but just simple cash payout..

Now we have the market flooded with inferior graphic processors all based off...money. Games optimized for FX and FP 16 formats.

I look forward to see HL2's shadows and lighting.

That´s still not my point.

NV´s weakness is with anything higher than FP16 in the specific game right? He was able to help there with or without any possible motivation under the table.

ATI´s weakness in comparable cases is though that FXs just look to be handling faster stencil ops and there wasn´t a cure for that without actually altering the whole atmosphere of the game or if you prefer it´s most marketed feature.

I have a R300 in my system and I´m well aware of any differences to FXs; it was a very conscious choice mind you ;)
 
What's really interesting in this regard, is the Volari duo V8. It has TONS of raw pixel fill rate, this could potentially make it a very intersting doom3 card if carmack makes a special path for it. (And if XGI exposes special extensions for him to do so.)

Speculative math:

350 * 8 = 2800MPixels/sec
350 * 8 * 2 = 5600MTexels/sec

(assuming one Z unit per pipe):

2800MPixels/sec stencil fillrate

NV35 = 3600MPixels/sec stencil fillrate

***edit: Xabre had already early-Z
 
russo121 said:
Does it means the goodies like HDR and others will not be used? Is this an updated quake3 engine with shadows or more than that?

runs on a gf2. says it all?

it uses perpixellighting with non-hdr lightsources. simple dot3 and attentuation and some multiplications to combine-them. and stencilshadows. yes, its very old-style. still, no game till now HAD EVEN THAT! i have a gf2 wich got announced to be "the perpixellighting card" by nvidia and about no game really does show me yet any full perpixellit scene. doom3 will..

but i have a radeon9700pro now and hdr lighting is much nicer:D
 
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