What will Sony add to their RSX GPU development?

[leechan25]

I only see people writing about how close RSX design will be to the G70 but nobody talks about which features Sony could possibly add to their co-developed GPU based on their own GPU concepts. We should at least be asking the question! We know that Cell will play a major part in PS3 ability to produce stunning graphics. We also know Sony was thinking of using a Cell processor as its GPU but opt for Nvidia instead. The RSX is said to be design with the intent of fully benefit from Cell processing power; not the other way around. My question is in three parts:

1. What information do we know about Sony's scraped GPU plans that could make it into the RSX?

2. What parts of the G70 pc card (the base of the RSX) should clearly be not include in the PS3 GPU?

3. What future hardware graphic features (developer's input would be great) should be achievable with the processing capabilities of Cell & RSX that may not be publicly known?

thanks for the info!

Leechan

 

[Carl B]

It's like deja vu all over again!

 

[leechan25]

why

what do you mean?

 

[Carl B]

what do you mean?

Well, the questions you're asking, they've all been asked like a hundred times. Not that there's anything wrong with you being curious on the subject of course. I frequently raise these questions myself after a fashion. And also, I wouldn't wish this forum's weak 'search' feature on my worst enemy.

So I'll answer your questions quickly, and who knows maybe some sort of debate will take place as other posters join in.

1) There was never a confirmed alternative to the RSX. Theories hinged on the 'Visualizer' patent showing a Cell-based GPU adaptation, but nothing exists (publicly) to draw on whether the project was ever really funded/started or not. As it stands RSX and NVidia is all we know. Of course there have been several debates on this very topic, but whatever - they all end in basically this conclusion.

2) 'PureVideo' should not be included. Everything else, well it becomes pick and choose based on what *is* being included. Which we don't really know.


3) There's at any given time two discussions on this very topic going, whether in proper threads or off-topic in other threads. So you'll hear anything from post-processing to no interaction to AA on Cell to ray-traced backgrounds to all sorts of things. But for certain, no one can be sure until we get the final architectural layout of the PS3.

 

[Bliss]

PS3 will be probably release in Q2 2006 in Japan...and Q4 in Europe, so I see the RSX closer to Nvidia next gen GPU(G80) rather than G70...that's what I think.....
....I can't wait for final specs......

 

[version]

500-600 million transistors
4 MB tilecache
1 TB/s bandwith

 

[Guden Oden]

From listening to rumors it seems RSX taped out only quite recently. If the chip is more or less a G70 with narrower memory interface and rambus redstone I/O interface instead of PCIe, then what the hell took them so long? The chip should have been finished six months ago or more. Or are we supposed to expect that the process shrink down to .9u really would take THAT much time?

I'm a little curious myself, it seems there might be a couple more changes under the hood than just those we know of. And I don't mean just the exclusion of the purevideo stuff either mind you, which isn't something sony/NV has announced, but people have speculated about here and elsewhere. I mean something else.

 

[Andy]

Kinda off topic, what is purevideo exactly? And by taking it out, what would that mean, if anything?

 

[Carl B]

Kinda off topic, what is purevideo exactly? And by taking it out, what would that mean, if anything?

It's NVidia's onboard video-decoding element basically, included in all their recent GPU's. Removing it (since Cell is obviously capable of decoding) saves ~20 million or so transistors.

 

[Gholbine]

From listening to rumors it seems RSX taped out only quite recently. If the chip is more or less a G70 with narrower memory interface and rambus redstone I/O interface instead of PCIe, then what the hell took them so long? The chip should have been finished six months ago or more. Or are we supposed to expect that the process shrink down to .9u really would take THAT much time?

This is precisely why it's much more than just a G70 w/ slight clock bump, IMO.

 

[Thegameman]

I remeber a quote from Nvidia saying that more featureswill make it into the RSX,that were not on the G70,i just can find it,i'm looking for it right now.


But is odd that if the RSX is just a 550 mhz G70 it would take this long,taking into acount that the 7800 is been out from summer.

 

[SMOKE]

The RSX has a few surprises and the word around the streets from sources I know all point to the CES in Las Vegas on Jan. 4th and then the whole enchilada will be spilled come Feb if things go as planned after CES. The RSX thats in Final Devs kits seem to good to be true even for a consloe Machine. I guess NVIDIA has another gfx chip there coming out with soon that kills the G70.

But what do i know its all blabber from well knowns

 

[Bill]

One conspiracy theory is it's 32 pipes.

That seems to be the realistic one.

Purevideo might still be in there.

And we dont know when it taped out. It was said to be August back then.

 

[Carl B]

The RSX has a few surprises and the word around the streets from sources I know all point to the CES in Las Vegas on Jan. 4th and then the whole enchilada will be spilled come Feb if things go as planned after CES. The RSX thats in Final Devs kits seem to good to be true even for a consloe Machine. I guess NVIDIA has another gfx chip there coming out with soon that kills the G70.

But what do i know its all blabber from well knowns

Dude that information amounts to *no* information. Some information at CES? More in February at their supposed event? I could have told you that much!

@Bill: If PureVideo's still in there, that's just idiotic on their part.

 

[dukmahsik]

considering xbox's gpu history

- mhz downgrade for rsx

 

[Shinjisan]

I expect RSX to be a G71, the 90nm G70 refresh which is supposed to feature 32 pipelines, with a few technologies from the next generation GPU G80,scheduled to be introduced in late spring/summer 2006.
Nvidia will launch G71 on the market on late January/February which is also when more PS3 announcements are supposed to happen.That's a strong coincidence.
Imo at this point the theory RSX= G70@90nm has not sense anymore.Sony would never buy a chip which is behind the best the PC market has to offer at the time PS3 is released.

 

[London Geezer]

Sony would never buy a chip which is behind the best the PC market has to offer at the time PS3 is released.

Why not? A relatively small speed bump will hadly matter when in the end the PS3 will be a closed box with a powerful enough GPU to make developers happy. In the end they'll have to make do with what's there, and putting a latest gen GPU in there will be quite expensive. A GPU that's "good enough" and gets the job done is fine, obviously after a certain limit.
Also, the RSX is NOT a GPU sony "bought off the shelf" and i think the fact we still haven't seen it speaks for itself. They've been working on the chip for quite a while now so it's clear the PS3 GPU will be quite different from a GPU you'll find in a PC at the same time, if only because of the FLEXIO interface.

 

[Shinjisan]

Why not? A relatively small speed bump will hadly matter when in the end the PS3 will be a closed box with a powerful enough GPU to make developers happy. In the end they'll have to make do with what's there, and putting a latest gen GPU in there will be quite expensive. A GPU that's "good enough" and gets the job done is fine, obviously after a certain limit.
Also, the RSX is NOT a GPU sony "bought off the shelf" and i think the fact we still haven't seen it speaks for itself. They've been working on the chip for quite a while now so it's clear the PS3 GPU will be quite different from a GPU you'll find in a PC at the same time, if only because of the FLEXIO interface.

Well you know,that's simply not Sony or Kutaragi's way of doing
Kutaragi wants to offer the absolute best when his product arrives on the market,they have spent a lot of money in developing Cell,if their philosophy were "it's sufficient to have a PS3 with a CPU powerful enough to make developers happy" now we wouldn't have Cell in PS3 but a Xbox360-like CPU.
Believe me that's impossibile that Sony decided to go third party (something they rarely do) to buy a GPU which is 1 year old when PS3 launches,with just a few optimizations to work with Cell and the FLEXI/O interface.

 

[London Geezer]

Well you know,that's simply not Sony or Kutaragi's way of doing
Kutaragi wants to offer the absolute best when his product arrives on the market,they have spent a lot of money in developing Cell,if their philosophy were "it's sufficient to have a PS3 with a CPU powerful enough to make developers happy" now we wouldn't have Cell in PS3 but a Xbox360-like CPU.
Believe me that's impossibile that Sony decided to go third party (something they rarely do) to buy a GPU which is 1 year old when PS3 launches,with just a few optimizations to work with Cell and the FLEXI/O interface.

As i said, reached a certain level of performance, any extras are just unwanted expenses Sony will try to avoid at all costs, considering how expensive PS3 is already.

I'm not saying "they'll put a GPU that's good enough" as if to say they could put a NV40 and be done with it.

I'm saying that reached a certain level - say G70 level, just an example - anything extra is just unwanted cost.

Just like they could push for Cell to have all 8 SPE's enabled, but a 7 SPE's Cell is "good enough", after taking into consideration the level of performance they need.

By your reasoning, Sony would just keep adding features and more advanced hardware just to reach this utopian "best ever hardware" status, when it really isn't needed - after a certain level as i said.

1GB Ram would be perfect and make PS3 much more powerful, but will they do it? Of course not.

Sony have performance targets for RSX and will stick to them. Anything extra will be scrapped.

Consoles are all about compromise, remember. The platform will be very powerful, but not unneccessarily powerful, or we'd end up with a NeoGeo kind of scenario, with a vastly more powerful hardware than the competition that's just too expensive for anyone to care. Sony need to sell PS3 at a certain price point and will try to cut their losses any way they can.

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

I don't know why people keep expecting some magic mojo to come out of the RSX. In fact, people out right pre-suppose that it must have something special, then go on to ask what it is.

I tend to believe there won't be any magic, just a faster G70.