What the Wii U hardware should have been?

Yeah that's what really gets my goat, how Nintendo could spend so damn much time coming up with a console filled with nothing but horrible hardware, the world's ugliest, slowest shittiest menu system and absolutely NO GAMES WHATSOEVER for it. It's like they totally forgot everything they learned over the course of 30 years about how to launch a console system.



I agree with you in principal, but it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo think that the hardware is quite good. They got the TDP pretty low for what it does, and by staying with PPC and the RAM+eDRAM architecture etc they can save time avoiding a retool. It wouldn't surprise me if they put a lot of weight on avoiding an architectural change.



But yeah, for the price and what they delivered as the total package (OS, games and HW) even I'm finding it a bit of a joke, and I like my Wii U.



What I've found really insulting at the moment is that they promote Pikmin by using Wii Remotes and Nunchucks, and MK8 is currently using the GamePad as a fucking horn. So even Nintendo aren't giving a shit about the controller that stole BoM away from the core tech in the machine. It feels like the 3DS in a way. Some cool feature thats relegated to gimmick status by Nintendo themselves.
 
In and ideal world where there was no internal politics, stupid egos and such: What Nintendo should have done when they first saw the massive cash-flow from the Wii, was to think ahead and take the logical step of making a platform that above every thing else would allow extremely rapid and smooth development.

Cost of development is above anything else, what is holding the industry/art back.
Compared to other much more mature media, such as movies, litterature, and music, it takes a disproportionate amount of resources to get a game made.

One ultimate way of doing this would have been to implement an architecture in FPGAs, meant solely for running high level interpreted languages (such as Python and Lisp) at very high speed, just like the much loved B5000 and the Lisp machines of the 70's and 80's.
Some FPGAs could be optimized for GPU/SIMD like functionality and others for more CPU like. An array of FPGA's could be completely optimized to a given task or game.

FPGA's would also mean extremely low power consumption, which in turn would mean a much smaller box and smaller PSU.

Of course the main bulk of the budget should be spent not on the actual hardware, but on specialized tools that went hand in hand with the HLL oriented architecture.

A killer feature would have been a VR headset combined with enhanced wiimotes, either (realistically) optionally from day one or as a packin.

But of course all of this would have taken guts and imagination, something which the whole computing industry seems to have be totally devoid of for a very long time.
 
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Jesus. I'm sorry to say this, but talk about being delusional...!

Where do you propose to find games programmers that know how, or are even willing to program in LISP in this day and age? How would development be rapid and smooth as you claim when devs would have to throw away every single piece of code in their source library as well as all middleware, because none of it runs on Nintendo's wacky FPGA-powered LISP machine? :LOL: This sounds like complete and utter madness.

What devs like is for hardware to be predictable and straight-forward, with good development software system. First having to design the hardware and program it into a set of FPGAs before being able to write a game for it doesn't sound like something that fosters rapid development. Who amongst today's top leading software developers would even be able to design a CPU from the ground up, or shit, a GPU for that matter. These things take years and hundreds of the smartest, brightest people you can find on this earth. If you want no games whatsoever to come out for Nintendo's next machine, this would clearly be the way to go...! :LOL:

Also, FPGAs tend to not be cheap, and an array of them sounds like costs could easily gallop with no performance gains to show for it. FPGAs have terrible efficiency compared to an ASIC, they're much slower and use multiples more transistors for the amount of logic gates they hold.

If you just want some low-powered shit that is good at playing adobe flash type games, there's already Ouya and whatnot. Why go to this extreme crazy length with FPGA arrays and wacky obsolete programming languages from 30, 40 years ago?
 
High game costs aren't going to be solved by changing programming languages. Not having to worry about the kinds of careful micro-optimizations that PS3 and XBox 360 needed should help a little, but I expect the bulk of game development costs will still be in generating the assets, especially graphics.

Programming language specific processors never really took off not just because they were too domain specific but because in the long term they weren't actually faster than good implementations on general purpose CPUs. A good compiler or even JIT takes down a lot of the benefit of hardware acceleration of most languages, then you have to consider that general purpose CPUs have had many years of incremental improvement behind them, supported by huge development budgets. This comparison is for a real custom CPU too, not one implemented on an FPGA which would be multiple times less efficient in every metric (performance, power consumption, and cost).

Doing the GPU on an FPGA is even less practical..

A VR headset could be cool but I think launching a console around it right now would be suicidal. The industry needs way more time to figure out how to properly develop and utilize this, and the additional costs would be huge.
 
Jesus. I'm sorry to say this, but talk about being delusional...!

Where do you propose to find games programmers that know how, or are even willing to program in LISP in this day and age? How would development be rapid and smooth as you claim when devs would have to throw away every single piece of code in their source library as well as all middleware, because none of it runs on Nintendo's wacky FPGA-powered LISP machine? :LOL: This sounds like complete and utter madness.

Lisp is one of the of the greatest programming languages ever thought up. There is no doubt about that.
It is hugely influential but none of the (partial) imitators have been able to match the power and productivity of real Lisp or one of the close variants.
You clearly need to read up on this.
And Lisp in games and 3D graphics? Naughty Dog does part of their game engine in Lisp (Scheme) precisely for power and productivity reasons. Some of the early 3D in movies and TV (whilst the two Lisp machine companies were alive) where done in Lisp.
The drawback of Lisp is that it runs rather slow compared to say, C on the current hyper souped-up but essentially neanderthal hardware of today (no offense to any neanderthals reading this :).
A real language specific machine made with todays fab process and bandwidth would blow any of todays CPU away on Lisp. And not by a little.

But the great thing about an FPGA language architecture is that it is almost completely flexible. You could take just about any great language and make it run many times faster when interpreting.
And late binding in general (done right of course) makes for much faster development, smaller code and easier maintainability and malleability, among other things.

What devs like is for hardware to be predictable and straight-forward, with good development software system. First having to design the hardware and program it into a set of FPGAs before being able to write a game for it doesn't sound like something that fosters rapid development. Who amongst today's top leading software developers would even be able to design a CPU from the ground up, or shit, a GPU for that matter. These things take years and hundreds of the smartest, brightest people you can find on this earth. If you want no games whatsoever to come out for Nintendo's next machine, this would clearly be the way to go...! :LOL:

Predictable and straight-forward will only get you predictable and straight-forward results. IE incremental change.
What I'm talking about is a game changer.
Of course Nintendo would have to do all the hard work of defining the architecture(s) and making a whole sleek and ultra developer friendly package available from day one. If they had started in 2006 guns blazing, they could have been finished in 2011 or 12.

The difficulty of designing a CPU/GPU is overrated. Complexity-wise CPUs are much simpler than even moderately large programs. The ARM CPU was done by a small team, and the design team at ARM is still comparatively very small.
Much of the complexity in for example Intel CPUs is artificial/for other reasons than pure power and utility.
A clean slate design wouldn't be too complex for a company such as Nintendo to handle.

Also, FPGAs tend to not be cheap, and an array of them sounds like costs could easily gallop with no performance gains to show for it. FPGAs have terrible efficiency compared to an ASIC, they're much slower and use multiples more transistors for the amount of logic gates they hold.

FPGA's can be much better tailored and optimized to a specific purpose all while having very deep pipelines and dissipating very little power.
That's worth more than lot's of potential, but ultimately non-usable power from many more transistors on an ASIC.
Given an advance order of several million (or licensing) I think Xilinx would be able to respond with a very favorable price.

If you just want some low-powered shit that is good at playing adobe flash type games, there's already Ouya and whatnot. Why go to this extreme crazy length with FPGA arrays and wacky obsolete programming languages from 30, 40 years ago?

FPGAs are used in some supercomputers, exactly because of their great value for money. That is even with FPGAs that are not yet optimized for general purpose computing from the manufacturer.
C and C++ and all their variants are older than 30 years and are much more "obsolete" than, say Lisp for example.
Again you clearly need to read up on this.
The only thing moving in the computing field is Moores law. Just about everything else has essentially been standing still or regressed in various ways for the last 30 to 40 years.
Complexity has gone up, sure. But complexity is most of the time a sign of regression caused by an overhvelming task, lack of clearness and coherence. Not of greatness.

High game costs aren't going to be solved by changing programming languages. Not having to worry about the kinds of careful micro-optimizations that PS3 and XBox 360 needed should help a little, but I expect the bulk of game development costs will still be in generating the assets, especially graphics.

Asset generation is deeply intertwined with the how the engine works, if done right.
The solution to the asset problem is through programming, better modeling tools and methods and a less is more approach to the whole gameworld. Your game isn't going to be any better by taking place on a whole meticulously grafted tropical island with zero value to the gameplay and fun of the game.

Programming language specific processors never really took off not just because they were too domain specific but because in the long term they weren't actually faster than good implementations on general purpose CPUs. A good compiler or even JIT takes down a lot of the benefit of hardware acceleration of most languages, then you have to consider that general purpose CPUs have had many years of incremental improvement behind them, supported by huge development budgets. This comparison is for a real custom CPU too, not one implemented on an FPGA which would be multiple times less efficient in every metric (performance, power consumption, and cost).

That is pure BS. You are essentially arguing that specialized hardware doesn't pay off, which has been proven wrong too many times to be worth mentioning.
What went wrong with the Lisp machines was a mixture of arrogance, geek cat fighting and not having access to the newest fabbing like Intel and Sun.
But look at how coveted and loved the Lisp machines where and still are by the lucky few.
HLL language specific machines is an idea whose time has come (again).

Doing the GPU on an FPGA is even less practical..

There would be less to gain surely, but you'd be able to reclaim and reconfigure power much more easily than with a GPU. So overall it would be worth it.

A VR headset could be cool but I think launching a console around it right now would be suicidal. The industry needs way more time to figure out how to properly develop and utilize this, and the additional costs would be huge.

The tech to do it (good enough (tm) and cheaply) has been with us for some time (motion tracking and large cheap high res LCDs). It's the industry's complacency and mutual FUDD that has held it back. It came to the point where even a kid in a garage could make it, before things started rolling.
It would probably have been a bad idea to ship the console with it, only for cost reasons. But it could have been a relatively cheap and strongly endorsed, 1st party supported extra.
Think of how close the WiiU controller already is. The LCD would have to have double the resolution, and you would need some optics in front of the screen but otherwise it's not far.
And you wouldn't have to pay for miscellaneous, like the antiquated resistive touchscreen, the buttons, sticks, IR bar and camera.
 
That is pure BS. You are essentially arguing that specialized hardware doesn't pay off, which has been proven wrong too many times to be worth mentioning.
What went wrong with the Lisp machines was a mixture of arrogance, geek cat fighting and not having access to the newest fabbing like Intel and Sun.
But look at how coveted and loved the Lisp machines where and still are by the lucky few.
HLL language specific machines is an idea whose time has come (again).

No, I'm not arguing that specialized hardware doesn't pay off, I'm arguing that specialized programming language accelerators don't pay off for that vast majority of programming languages that anyone would use for game programming today. This is especially true when it comes to doing it in an FPGA.

I've known some of the developers of the fastest Scheme compilers (I went to Indiana University for grad school, put two and two together on this). I think THEY would argue that you are full of crap when you say that Scheme is very slow compared to C/C++, if programmed with performance in mind of course. Why don't you describe exactly what it is that you think hardware would greatly accelerate here?

There would be less to gain surely, but you'd be able to reclaim and reconfigure power much more easily than with a GPU. So overall it would be worth it.

Enough hand waving, start giving some real concrete examples.

The tech to do it (good enough (tm) and cheaply) has been with us for some time (motion tracking and large cheap high res LCDs). It's the industry's complacency and mutual FUDD that has held it back. It came to the point where even a kid in a garage could make it, before things started rolling.

Big VR evangelists like Carmack disagree with that we've had it for some time.
 
FPGAs are used in some supercomputers, exactly because of their great value for money.

They're only a value for the money because the volume is to low to justify the cost of ASIC or custom processor development.
 
FPGA's can be much better tailored and optimized to a specific purpose
Then you first have to have a specific purpose. Building a general purpose CPU out of FPGAs is incredibly wasteful.
all while having very deep pipelines and dissipating very little power.
and achieving very little performance compared to an ASIC.
That's worth more than lot's of potential, but ultimately non-usable power from many more transistors on an ASIC.
[..]
FPGAs are used in some supercomputers, exactly because of their great value for money.
It appears you have a serious misconception about FPGAs. They are used because of their flexibility to model the behaviour of basically arbitrary logic/memory combinations. But this comes with a severe overhead (power, performance, die size [cost]) compared to an ASIC which integrates that directly (where you lose the flexibility of course). As others have said, the most common use of FPGAs is often to avoid the very steep costs of designing a manufacturing an ASIC for a specific purpose if the target market is relatively small.
FPGAs can of course beat general purpose CPUs on some algorithms which are not suited to a CPU. But there is no way they beat them across the board. And you don't want to reprogram the FPGA each time you do something slightly different (your code calls some subroutine). And there is also no way it will beat a GPU on graphics related tasks. After all, a GPU is an ASIC build for such tasks. You would need A LOT of FPGAs to rival the performance of a GPU.
That is even with FPGAs that are not yet optimized for general purpose computing from the manufacturer.
How would one do that?
 
No, not unless they basically use something drastically different for developers than what they offer up on the Wii U. Nintendo has software issues. Their developer tools and documentation is extremely anemic. Their entire OS is anemic. Their online network infrastructure is anemic.

Seems like they just need to outsource all of their network and OS development and to partner with a company that can eat the loss on hardware necessary to make a high-end console.
 
Strictly hardware, it would have been nice if they were able to incorporate a little more power while retaining backwards compatibility. Their intricately designed CPU could possibly eat up a lot of their R&D resources, but redesigning that CPU is almost pivotal to get good backwards compatibility.

I don't know if I anyone knows enough about the GPU to write it off yet. So I won't comment. But of course more RAM is always good too.

Nintendo has a lot of experience in OS design though. They even have an open-source OS floating around on Google Code somewhere that they made. In my experience, it is very hard to program an OS when you are not even 100% sure what is going to be put into it. In that case, it is easiest to make it as modular as possible, like what Android does where everything runs in its own VM. I think Nintendo attempted something similar and just got caught in a rough spot.

I believe the Wii U OS will mature nicely.
 
I've already said this, maybe even in this thread, but the ideal Wii U hardware probably would have been the Xbone design without any ESRAM. Maybe 32MB of straight EDRAM if anything.

That would have been cheap as crap (DDR3+a quite small SOC) and still pretty powerful.

As always, it still would have gotten them nowhere though. "Almost as good as the other guys" is a dead end for Ninty as Gamecube showed.

Actually in this case it may have stood them well, IF they hit hard on price (299) and they would have had a year headstart...

I still think it would have been a terribly uphill battle with only maybe a 10% chance of winning, but better than Wii U's zero percent...

But for Ninty it's probably better to fail horribly in a binary fashion (the quicker to try again) than string out a slow agonizing defeat with the false temptation of hope. Again, the latter scenario was basically Gamecube.
 
That would have been cheap as crap (DDR3+a quite small SOC) and still pretty powerful.

And would have been pretty bandwidth limited.. if you're going to drop it you'd may as well drop some of the other GPU resources because you'll have a hard time utilizing them well.

Also don't think the 400mm^2 SoC would have been quite so small after removing the 32MB of eSRAM, it's not like that eSRAM takes up 250mm^2!
 
And would have been pretty bandwidth limited.. if you're going to drop it you'd may as well drop some of the other GPU resources because you'll have a hard time utilizing them well.

Also don't think the 400mm^2 SoC would have been quite so small after removing the 32MB of eSRAM, it's not like that eSRAM takes up 250mm^2!

Remove half off the GPU. Or there abouts.
 
Remove half off the GPU. Or there abouts.
Maybe a four core Kabini with doubled or maybe tripled GPU part (4 to 6 CUs, single but full speed frontend [Kabini is quite limited there]) and 4GB DDR3-2133 at an 128bit interface? That would be half a Durango without the eSRAM and probably really cheap.
 
And would have been pretty bandwidth limited.. if you're going to drop it you'd may as well drop some of the other GPU resources because you'll have a hard time utilizing them well.

Also don't think the 400mm^2 SoC would have been quite so small after removing the 32MB of eSRAM, it's not like that eSRAM takes up 250mm^2!

It does take up 1.6B transistors and presumably up to 1/3 of the 400mm XBO SOC.

A Cape Verde is only 123mm^2 or something like that, go from there to imagine Wii U small SOC possibilities....

the 32MB of EDRAM on Wii U doesn't seem too bulky, as it's integrated in a 150mm GPU on 40 or 55nm...maybe go that way.
 
It does take up 1.6B transistors and presumably up to 1/3 of the 400mm XBO SOC.

A Cape Verde is only 123mm^2 or something like that, go from there to imagine Wii U small SOC possibilities....

the 32MB of EDRAM on Wii U doesn't seem too bulky, as it's integrated in a 150mm GPU on 40 or 55nm...maybe go that way.

You can't use transistor counts to estimate how much of a die some component takes up because transistor density isn't uniform. Big SRAM blocks often achieve much higher than average density because they're so uniform.

At any rate, even 267mm^2 is hardly a quite small or cheap as crap SoC.
 
Maybe a four core Kabini with doubled or maybe tripled GPU part (4 to 6 CUs, single but full speed frontend [Kabini is quite limited there]) and 4GB DDR3-2133 at an 128bit interface? That would be half a Durango without the eSRAM and probably really cheap.
Well it would definitely a tempting low end set-up but that was not doable for a launch in 2012.
If they went with an (AMD) APU they were stuck with bobcat and @40nm process.
Either way they had to pass on an APU, still what CPU?
Going with IBM you end pretty much with the WiiU.

On the ARM side, may be a quad core A15+ high end SGx or Mali GPU, on a 128bit bus with fast ddr3.
Not boutique process involved could have make room for the wider bus, faster memory. Still would that be enough for more RAM? I'm not sure (don't think so). Either way they could have cut the WiiUmote but go with just a Wii refresh with competent hardware.

It get worse when you consider timeline, to sit in between this gen and the up coming one, launching in 2011 was a better option. Though on the hardware side it makes things even more complicated. No A15 available, no 28nm process.

For a launch in 2011 may be a quad core bobcat+Turk GPU (vliw5, 6SIMD, 8ROP) in a SoC was may be the best thing doable within their budget.
A 4 bobcat cores +cache should be south of 40mm^2, HD 6670 are south of 120mm^2, pretty much that would be the same size as the WiiU GPU or close.
They could have afford faster RAM and a bigger bus, with a more reasonable OS footprint (256MB max) in 2011 2GB could have looked like a lot for the people impatient for a new toy.
If they could have get it priced @ 199$ with a BRD drive (but no BRD playback to save money), no HDD but 16GB of flash as late ps3 slim, it could have met success with core gamers for say ~3 years.
The issue is they would have bring nothing to casuals, kids, etc. The issue here is actually more on the handheld side of the equation that in the home console design. Nintendo missed the opportunity to design a new DS and a new Wii hand in hand.
 
You can't use transistor counts to estimate how much of a die some component takes up because transistor density isn't uniform. Big SRAM blocks often achieve much higher than average density because they're so uniform.

At any rate, even 267mm^2 is hardly a quite small or cheap as crap SoC.



The XBO specs dont match up with an 8 core JAg and 12 CU's very well to come over 400mm. I guess we'll need to see the PS4 SOC to get a better idea though (even then of course it wont be concrete).

But heck, how about just DDR3 68 GB/s? This is Nintendo here, we're not asking to send people to the moon. The 7770 has 72GB/s, so it's close enough, even allowing CPU.

Yes, such system would be BW constrained, but again, it's Nintendo, and it would destroy the Wii U by a factor of several without asking any questions. And be cheap.

I guess in reality maybe do 4GB DDR3 and 8-10CU's, DDR3 256-bit and no EDRAM. Anything like that.

This would still get Nintendo exactly nowhere of value (they would do much better than Wii U, they would have tons of fanboys during the pre PS4/XBO grace period, but likely lukewarm at best long term success regardless with a machine that is still "not quite as good") so I'm not sure why I'm discussing it, other than elegance of the design.

The whole thing would be eons simpler if you also just disregard the stupid tablet. then you could attack at a 299 price point and try to get early volume adoption. Yet again I'm still not sure this leaves you with any long term chance. They are better off failing horribly than slowly, probably.
 
The XBO specs dont match up with an 8 core JAg and 12 CU's very well to come over 400mm. I guess we'll need to see the PS4 SOC to get a better idea though (even then of course it wont be concrete).

But heck, how about just DDR3 68 GB/s? This is Nintendo here, we're not asking to send people to the moon. The 7770 has 72GB/s, so it's close enough, even allowing CPU.

Yes, such system would be BW constrained, but again, it's Nintendo, and it would destroy the Wii U by a factor of several without asking any questions. And be cheap.

I guess in reality maybe do 4GB DDR3 and 8-10CU's, DDR3 256-bit and no EDRAM. Anything like that.

This would still get Nintendo exactly nowhere of value (they would do much better than Wii U, they would have tons of fanboys during the pre PS4/XBO grace period, but likely lukewarm at best long term success regardless with a machine that is still "not quite as good") so I'm not sure why I'm discussing it, other than elegance of the design.

The whole thing would be eons simpler if you also just disregard the stupid tablet. then you could attack at a 299 price point and try to get early volume adoption. Yet again I'm still not sure this leaves you with any long term chance. They are better off failing horribly than slowly, probably.
I would think that that is above Nintendo budget /BOM. Without the tablet they had nothing to attract new people, really just a Wii refresh, they would have needed to be cheap, like max 199$.

I wonder if it was doable with an AMD chip, even with a bobcat/Turk SoC launching in 2011 (as I was thinking).
So may be they should have gone with ARM. The A9 ain't a fabulous CPU (neither are Bobcat though) but it was available and it can clock pretty well. On the GPU side high end Mali GPU were not powerful enough, though I wonder how far the high end of PowerVR could have gone in 2011.
I think they need something that pushed say half a TFLOPS (/north of that).
If it was doable may be it could have done not that bad. I think lot of enthusiasts would have given the system a try (with a low price it is not a risk) and actually some people that may have jumped in this gen pretty late (once price were "low") may have gone with Nintendo for their IPs.
Launching in 2011 that would have given Nintendo some time at the top of the hill as far as perfs are concerned. Looking at the price and availability (unknown now but usually they are tough to get at launch) lots of people could have waited till 2014 before considering an upgrade, may even later depending on how prices of the next generation systems evolve.

Now that is where it could have been interesting, Nintendo while still focusing on cheap (but good...) hardware may have decide to break away for the average and pretty slow refresh rate in the console realm. Now say in 2014 they announced a new system, potent but cheap, it could have an influence on people attitude toward Sony and MSFT systems (which are pretty costly TCO is high thanks to the paywall).

Though all that assumes that Nintendo would be OK selling a console without gimmick, just relying on their IPs (and so releasing those IP on time...), that they would have a proper business plan (cheap hardware but close to optimal hardware, faster refresh rate), and that they would be OK to work with either a Chinese or Korean company, as to do such a system they need people to put it together for them.
Looking at the conservative people at the top of Nintendo, well versed in tradition, working with either Chinese or Korean might be close to a heresy.
 
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I kind of agree. I think WiiU is a products that's just not at the right time. Depending on how you want to look at it, it's either too late or too early.

Releasing a WiiHD in 2010 as an upgrade to a Wii would have worked out better for Nintendo. Or releasing in 2014 with a hardware spec similar to X1 would have been better too.

I really hope that they are panicking now and scrambling to get a new system out by late 2015. IMO, they either have to switch to x86 or ARM. When the other two consoles are both x86 based and AMD GPU, anything different will be a hindrance to 3rd party support. They could probably ask for an SOC in between X1 and PS4, it should be cheap in two years. I suppose they could go for an A57 based APU as well since AMD will have that.
 
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