Warren Spector critizes Rockstar with GTA Series

[London Geezer]

I kinda agree with him, because personally i just don't like the whole sad gangsta culture in videogames (though they sell lots because kids love that), but it has to be said that GTA3 isn't the only free-roaming game out there.

If someone wants a free roaming game without the whole gangsta crap, there are a few others to choose from, from the Jak franchise, to Rathet&Clank, which are both much better games than GTA will ever be in my own opinion. And there's more.

We have a choice, if we don't like certain things, we don't buy it.

I do worry sometimes though, that kids just seem to prefer this whole gangsta culture. Very dangerous if you ask me, but it's certainly not videogames that put those idiotic ideas in their minds. If there's something to worry about, it's not gangsta videogames, it's gangsta people and how they affect the culture and the people around them.

 

[.Melchiah.]

Another point that is normally missed by the thought police: You don't have to beat up every single pedestrian in the game with a baseball bat, in fact, it's kind of counter-productive.

Cheers
Gubbi

Exactly.

Some journalist in Finland made a big fuss about how she beat up pedestrians and drove over them, and shagged hookers in GTA, eventhough none of those acts are mandatory in the game. IMO, it tells something about her, that she actually CHOSE to beat up pedestrians to bloody pulp.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I've never really gone along with the 'it's not real so who cares if it's violent' mentality. If people enjoy pretending to be gangsters with realistic thuggery, doesn't that reflect somewhat on their mentality? I don't like the idea of pretending to beat people up - not realistically. Something like Tekken or whatever that's fantastical and unreal in presentation is okay. But when it's trying to be real, is it really a good idea? If there's nothing wrong with it, how's about a game where you play a rapist, and have to rape as many victims as you can while avoiding the police? Or if as long as it's a fantasy it doesn't matter, how's about leveraging next-gen visual graphics to release a child-molesting game with photorealistic representations of your victims? If the paedophiles enjoy it and can live their fantasies without actually doing anything wrong in the real world, is it okay to feed those fantasies?

By my reckoning, people who enjoy watching suffering or the morally dubious activities people can do aren't really healthy. But that includes an AWFUL lot of people. From the Roman circuses and people enjoying the brutality there, to enjoying graphic representations as good as the circuses made on a TV screen, if they get a thrill out of seeing suffering and like to imagine themselves commit such acts, that don't seem right to me, yet it's mainstay of contemporary media. Personally I'd rather hang out with people who when they have spare time to themselves think 'I'd like to play that sport sims/save the world from aliens game/breed some new farm animals/pop bubbles with my dragon' rather than those that think 'I want to pretend to smack people around with a baseball bat/steal cars and run over pedestrians/gun down law enforcers/rape every living thing I come across'. People that think that way are surely closer to doing those things than people who can't stand the thought of such games?

I don't see that the bad is needed in games. People used to enjoy badger and bear baiting, but it's been baneed and since then most people would hate to have to watch that level of violence. I'm sure if people used to enjoying violence moved away from it, after a while they'd get pretty sick of it. Maybe.

 

[Gubbi]

I've never really gone along with the 'it's not real so who cares if it's violent' mentality. If people enjoy pretending to be gangsters with realistic thuggery, doesn't that reflect somewhat on their mentality? I don't like the idea of pretending to beat people up - not realistically. Something like Tekken or whatever that's fantastical and unreal in presentation is okay. But when it's trying to be real, is it really a good idea?

So where do you draw the line ? Is Counter-Strike too real ? Is Ghost recon ?

Ultimately the market places decides what is over the line and what isn't (that and the different ratings the games receives). Your child molesting simulator would spell instant death (interpret that in any way you like) for any developer/publisher pushing it.

I don't see that the bad is needed in games. People used to enjoy badger and bear baiting, but it's been baneed and since then most people would hate to have to watch that level of violence. I'm sure if people used to enjoying violence moved away from it, after a while they'd get pretty sick of it. Maybe.

Face it, it's just a bigger thrill to look down the barrel of a shotgun (at either end), or beat somebody to a pulp with a kick-punch-punch-kick combo than grapping fruits and flipping turtles on your Nintendo.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[Gubbi]

Rant: The fundamental problem is that parents in general have zero interest in their kids and what they are up to. To them a computer or console is just about the greatest babysitter EVAR.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think there should be more of a balance between violent and non-violent games. Right now, I'd say 90% of games are very violent. You've got some sports games to cover the rest, and a few other things.

I think his problem is that people are making all these really great designs for games that open up all kinds of possibilities for different gaming experiences that a broad audience could enjoy, but they always end up being killfests, which narrows the audience to teenagers and young men, mostly.

And it definitely doesn't do much to attract positive attention towards games.

 

[fearsomepirate]

it, it's just a bigger thrill to look down the barrel of a shotgun (at either end), or beat somebody to a pulp with a kick-punch-punch-kick combo than grapping fruits and flipping turtles on your Nintendo.

Then why did the port of Super Mario Bros to the GBA sell so well? Why is there more clamor among gamers for Mr Miyamoto to get with it and get done with Mario 128 than for GTA MCXVIII?

Just dealing with one example, if the terrorists in Counterstrike had to fly jet planes into sky scrapers, and if you win you have to watch people scream and die for 10 minutes, it would be a different story. Or if the terrorists' goal was to suicide bomb a bus full of Israeli schoolchildren. There's a level of abstraction in that game that keeps it pretty fake.

Another thing is that once you push a boundary to mainstream, it pushed the boundary way back. Maybe rape games aren't sellable now, but 20 years ago, neither was GTA. GTA took what was a marginal idea (you'd seen this kind of mayhem before in Postal, but it was always considered on the boundaries of good taste) and made it mainstream. Now a game like Manhunt is considered marginal. It's what we always point to as being on the absolute boundary of good taste. If they manage to make a straight-up murder simulator mainstream (sell 5 million units or something), it won't any longer be considered to be a marginal case, i.e. on the edge of what a violent game can be like. So someone else will make something even more extreme, and that will be the marginal case that everyone talks about and goes "oh man, nothing beyond this will sell!" But then that becomes mainstream, and then...

40 years ago, you couldn't show more than a flash of a breast in a film and have more than a few swear words. 30 years ago, long nude scenes and endless strings of f-bombs were almost unthinkable. 20 years ago, no one thought full frontal nudity would ever be in a feature film. It's a good example of how once the margines are made mainstream, they create new margins, which remain marginal only until someone figures out how to make them mainstream. Will you ever be able to go into a rated R movie and watch a hardcore sex scene? Maybe not next year, but in 30 years?

Romans didn't just wake up one day and start having gladiator fights and watching people get ripped to shreds by lions, you know.

Oh, and for what it's worth, how do you AVOID driving through people in GTA? The controls are so horrid that I always inadvertently end up rolling over a few pedestrians.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Rant: The fundamental problem is that parents in general have zero interest in their kids and what they are up to. To them a computer or console is just about the greatest babysitter EVAR.

Cheers
Gubbi

*Standing Ovation*

 

[Scott_Arm]

40 years ago, you couldn't show more than a flash of a breast in a film and have more than a few swear words. 30 years ago, long nude scenes and endless strings of f-bombs were almost unthinkable. 20 years ago, no one thought full frontal nudity would ever be in a feature film. It's a good example of how once the margines are made mainstream, they create new margins, which remain marginal only until someone figures out how to make them mainstream. Will you ever be able to go into a rated R movie and watch a hardcore sex scene? Maybe not next year, but in 30 years?

Not that this is relevant in any way, but there was full frontal nudity in films in the early 70s and plenty of swearing. There was also brief nudity or maybe even full frontal in the late 60s. Your point still stands though.

 

[London Geezer]

Didn't Taxi Driver have the F-word being shouted something like 200 times? That was what, 30 years ago or so?

 

[digitalwanderer]

I really don't see what the fuss is about, what is so family unfriendly about GTA?

It's wholesome good family fun. Me, my wife, and my kids all play and love the series.

 

[Powderkeg]

40 years ago, you couldn't show more than a flash of a breast in a film and have more than a few swear words. 30 years ago, long nude scenes and endless strings of f-bombs were almost unthinkable. 20 years ago, no one thought full frontal nudity would ever be in a feature film.

I think you're about 20 years off on your estimates. 40+ years ago Jayne Mansfield was doing full frontal nudity in Promises, Promises, 30+ years ago Al Pachino was dropping F-Bombs left and right in The Godfather.

27 years ago Brooke Shields starred in Pretty Baby. Don't even suggest nudity was off limits if you haven't seen that. I'm still amazed that it's even legal.

 

[Blade]

Remember the MPAA and the rating system.

Back in the 70's, you really had to earn R ratings. R-rated movies were knock-your-socks-off sexual/violent.

 

[ban25]

You guys are missing the point, our industry is becoming really one-sided. If your game isn't overly violent then you don't get approved with a huge budget for the game, which cuts the quality and cuts on the exposure(advertising).

Shadow of the Collossus? Forza Motorsport?

Kameo(one of the very few big-budget family adventure games that we've seen recently is an exception), which makes me appreciate it even more. Could you imagine the type of game Rockstar could make if they were to put the same effort and money into a non overtly violent game as they do with GTA?

Jak 2?

In today's world if you don't like violent games you are really getting the short end of the stick because not as much effort(as a whole) goes into these games anymore. Which is a stark contrast to the 16bit and 32bit days...

You must not have been around for Mortal Kombat and Night-trap.

 

[ban25]

Maybe rape games aren't sellable now, but 20 years ago, neither was GTA.

Speaking of 20 years ago...

http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=119

20 years ago, no one thought full frontal nudity would ever be in a feature film.

Watch 1984 for a 21-year-old movie with plenty of full frontal nudity.

 

[see colon]

i'm a parent. my daughter is young (just turned 2) so i won't be letting he play "M" rated games any time soon. but when the time, i'm sure she'll besome a violent sociopath because of the mind poisoning powers of videogames. check out how violent we've become, as a nation...

source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/index.html

keep in mind that GTAIII was released in october of 2001. it's mind poisoning effects are apparent just one year later! look at violent crime shoot through the roof, spiraling out of control like an unmaned unicycle on a stunt course.

videogames are such a violent media that 17% of games in 2004 had to be rated "M" by the ESRB. the MPAA found it fit to rate only 54% of movies in 2004 "R".

 

[Scott_Arm]

I don't think anyone here is worried that violence in games is going to create violent people. I think it's more just a grip that 90% of games are violent and that violence does not appeal to everyone. As long as such a high percentage of games are violent, gaming will always be targetting by certain groups and there will be regulations and blah blah blah. I think Warren was just a little more upset that we're pushing new and interesting technology in games, but all it's being used for is mindless killing games.

 

[mckmas8808]

I kinda agree with him, because personally i just don't like the whole sad gangsta culture in videogames (though they sell lots because kids love that), but it has to be said that GTA3 isn't the only free-roaming game out there.

If someone wants a free roaming game without the whole gangsta crap

I do worry sometimes though, that kids just seem to prefer this whole gangsta culture. Very dangerous if you ask me, but it's certainly not videogames that put those idiotic ideas in their minds. If there's something to worry about, it's not gangsta videogames, it's gangsta people and how they affect the culture and the people around them.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down chief. Man you sound like somebody's daddy. What's going on with you l-b. I thought you were cool lol. This whole gangsta thing didn't start with GTA and it sure didn't start with Rap music (like a lot of people think). Haven't you seen the classic movies like Scarface, The Godfather, Goodfellas, Boys N Tha Hood, Menece to Society, hell even The Sopranos?

This form of entertainment has been around for over 50 years. I seen a black and white movie that was about Al Capone. The dude in the movie was cool as hell with that Tommy gun too. Most rappers favorite movies are these gangsta movies. They name themselves after the characters in the movie.

Again this form of media has been around for ages. It's games like GTA III that have started to bring that same kinda of media that's been around for over 50 years to the consoles and PCs. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a person has a problem with GTA type games and want to critize the volience then they shouldn't like volient movies or TV shows either.

 

[London Geezer]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down chief. Man you sound like somebody's daddy. What's going on with you l-b. I thought you were cool lol. This whole gangsta thing didn't start with GTA and it sure didn't start with Rap music (like a lot of people think). Haven't you seen the classic movies like Scarface, The Godfather, Goodfellas, Boys N Tha Hood, Menece to Society, hell even The Sopranos?

I never said gangsta culture started with Hip-Hop music or GTA or whatever, did i?

My point is that i just don't think it's a good culture to be in at all.

This form of entertainment has been around for over 50 years. I seen a black and white movie that was about Al Capone. The dude in the movie was cool as hell with that Tommy gun too. Most rappers favorite movies are these gangsta movies. They name themselves after the characters in the movie.

I know.

Again this form of media has been around for ages. It's games like GTA III that have started to bring that same kinda of media that's been around for over 50 years to the consoles and PCs. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. If a person has a problem with GTA type games and want to critize the volience then they shouldn't like volient movies or TV shows either.

My point wasn't that GTA brought anythng to the table.

My point was that the whole gangsta culture (which started with italians funny enough, decades ago, and has now been embraced by all kinds of ethnic groups, from asian to black to grannies to giraffes) needs to die. hard. with a bullet in da head ya no'!!

 

[mckmas8808]

I never said gangsta culture started with Hip-Hop music or GTA or whatever, did i?

My point is that i just don't think it's a good culture to be in at all.


I know.


My point wasn't that GTA brought anythng to the table.

My point was that the whole gangsta culture (which started with italians funny enough, decades ago, and has now been embraced by all kinds of ethnic groups, from asian to black to grannies to giraffes) needs to die. hard. with a bullet in da head ya no'!!

I know you didn't say it. I was generalizing because that's what a lot of people say. I love watching the gangsta lifestyle myself. But I can understand your position.

I don't think anyone here is worried that violence in games is going to create violent people. I think it's more just a grip that 90% of games are violent and that violence does not appeal to everyone. As long as such a high percentage of games are violent, gaming will always be targetting by certain groups and there will be regulations and blah blah blah.

Slow down Scott. You must have missed this post.

videogames are such a violent media that 17% of games in 2004 had to be rated "M" by the ESRB.

That means 83% of games sold were Teen or lower. You have 83% to pick from what do you want? Where are you getting this 90% volient game stuff from? Most games are not that super volient at all.