Value of Hardware Unboxed benchmarking

[troyan]

What do you mean "proper" upscaling? Is DLSS the only "proper" upscaling? Plus, they've highlighted that DLSS is better than other options repeatedly, from what I've seen.

I think there's good arguments to criticize their discussion of latency when Nvidia had reflex and AMD had not release anti-lag+ yet.

DLSS is one of these PC gaming archivements which has transformed how we play games. It is on the same level as 3dfx Glide (and Voodoo cards). Now look how this channel has approached upscaling. For them it is "native" rendering only.

I don't know exactly what this means, so I'm just going to talk about raytracing support. Raytracing is a visibility test with pros and cons. You can have complex visibility tests, but normally at the expense of resolution, performance and noise. It can provide elements of realism in light "transport" that other methods cannot handle as accurately. Realism is not objectively better. In fact some people have very good arguments about why realism is bad for graphics.

See this thread for a discussion on image formation vs physically based rendering etc (read back through more of the thread than the thumbnail)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711090482384667080

"Realism" depends on the artist. When an artist wants reflections why is SSR acceptable but hardware raytracing isnt? Do you think a game with missing reflections is looking better than having "realistic" ones?

DLSS and Raytracing are tackling different kind of aspects of rendering. Independently both representing the exact opposite of the gaming spectrum.
So with this in mind its a paradox with this channel: They dont like better image quality and they dont like more performance withlower lantency. So what do you they like? I guess every option which makes AMD GPUs look better.

 

[Kaotik]

DLSS is one of these PC gaming archivements which has transformed how we play games. It is on the same level as 3dfx Glide (and Voodoo cards). Now look how this channel has approached upscaling. For them it is "native" rendering only.

It most definitely is not comparable to Glide&Voodoo. It might be that big for some, but for others it's trash like every other scaler out there

 

[Malo]

I get the feeling that the disappointed reviews of HUB's reviews here are largely based on forum members' personal GPU vendor bias.

A few specific members being the Nvidia Marketing Team, or Nvidia Defense Force, call them what you want. It would be easier if they were on more ignore lists, we wouldn't get sections of the forum locked and threads locked.

And for the record I'd say I'm Nvidia fan myself. I just don't need everyone else to be that too.

Yes, that's a majority of us. It makes no sense to consistently push a company's agenda and products for years so vehemently unless there's a direct significant financial gain, at which they are basically marketing shills.

 

[DegustatoR]

A few specific members being the Nvidia Marketing Team, or Nvidia Defense Force, call them what you want. It would be easier if they were on more ignore lists, we wouldn't get sections of the forum locked and threads locked.

But then they would still be locked because of the few members who are on AMD Marketing Team or Defense Force. It would be much better if people like you stop trying to explain everything which you don't like by labeling others.

 

[Remij]

I think it's actually good to have two different perspectives come from the same outlet. There are more than one type of gamer out there, and having and informing the user about each is a good thing.

 

[trinibwoy]

I don't mind subjectivity, but I do like to hear a somewhat coherent and consistent reasoning behind it.

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[pjbliverpool]

It might be that big for some, but for others it's trash like every other scaler out there

This feels like a good time to remind you of your own recent post in the FSR3 thread (which I agreed with) in response to someone who claimed FSR2 is the worst upscaling solution available:

It's BS posts like this that really drive the negative tensions around here.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

I think it's actually good to have two different perspectives come from the same outlet. There are more than one type of gamer out there, and having and informing the user about each is a good thing.

Yeah. HUB has definitely changed their review approach for the better over the past few weeks. Likely the reason they surpassed 1m subscribers with the most recent video posted in the FSR 3 thread.

 

[troyan]

It most definitely is not comparable to Glide&Voodoo. It might be that big for some, but for others it's trash like every other scaler out there

Sure. I think most people want to have a 4K display for work from home and using the same display for playing. DLSS performance gives 85%+ of the native 4K quality for >2x the performance.
A 4060 gets over 80 FPS in AC Mirage in 1080p: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/...ge-benchmark-test-performance-analysis/5.html

 

[Scott_Arm]

...

"Realism" depends on the artist.

I think realism is attempting to make things look like real life. If I see a chair in my room, how do I reproduce an accurate look through art. That seems non controversial.

When an artist wants reflections why is SSR acceptable but hardware raytracing isnt?

Why are you directing this question at me? Who is arguing this point?

Do you think a game with missing reflections is looking better than having "realistic" ones?

It depends on a million other things.

Which of these paintings is better? Is there any way to determine that objectively? Realism is not the only goal. It's a goal. I think a game could look great without reflections and I think a game could look great with realistic ones.

Here are two paintings of boats on water. This is impressionism (left) vs realism (right). Do you think there's some objective way to measure that realism is better? Is the painting on left less good because it is less concerned with accuracy? Those answers will be highly subjective. The real goal for rendering technology should be to make both of these avenues equally possible so artists (devs) have freedom to make what they want.

 

[Kaotik]

Sure. I think most people want to have a 4K display for work from home and using the same display for playing. DLSS performance gives 85%+ of the native 4K quality for >2x the performance.
A 4060 gets over 80 FPS in AC Mirage in 1080p: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/...ge-benchmark-test-performance-analysis/5.html

Meanwhile according to Steam only 3.29% of users have 4K primary display, whopping 61.17% have 1080p and 16.61% have 1440p.

This feels like a good time to remind you of your own recent post in the FSR3 thread (which I agreed with) in response to someone who claimed FSR2 is the worst upscaling solution available:

And I still stand by it, my post doesn't go against it either - there are people who think all scalers are trash (me included) and people who think it's the best thing since sliced bread (and everything in between).
It's in no way comparable to a post it was in response to, which represented these claims as a facts (not just "fsr2 is worst"), not as subjective opinions.

FSR is actually horrible. It is worse than the basic resolution scale sliders we used to have. Those would soften the image. FSR fills nearly every moving pixel of the screen with eye searing artifacts.

 

[troyan]

Which of these paintings is better?

View attachment 9800View attachment 9801

The discussion shouldnt be about what is "better". In both cases the artist has displayed reflections on the water. Now think about a critique erasing these reflections from the image. Would you call it "better looking"?

This is what this youtube channel is doing. They are changing the vision of the artist.

 

[DavidGraham]

The real goal for rendering technology should be to make both of these avenues equally possible so artists (devs) have freedom to make what they want.

Real Tracing is not about realism, we can do realism with Rasterization just fine. Bake everything to the brim and voila, there you have it.

However, ray tracing is about dynamism, making everything not static. Reflections, lighting and shadows become more dynamic, then even your stylized world become more immersive and far less incoherent or distracting.

No it's not, it's a feature in the latest DX version among countless other features. And no, it wasn't the only new feature in the latest DX version either.

It's the major feature, it's even called DXR after Ray Tracing! Also, no there are no other countless equal features, VRS, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback have yet to find any meaningful adoption, while DXR is featured in hundreds of games as of right now.

 

[Kaotik]

Real Tracing is not about realism, we can do realism with Rasterization just fine. Bake everything to the brim and voila, there you have it.

However, ray tracing is about dynamism, making everything not static. Reflections, lighting and shadows become more dynamic, then even your stylized world become more immersive and far less incoherent or distracting.

It's the major feature, it's even called DXR after Ray Tracing! Also, no there are no other countless equal features, VRS, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback have yet to find any meaningful adoption, while DXR is featured in hundreds of games as of right now.

Regardless of adoption rate you simply can't condense DirectX 12 Ultimate to just DirectX Raytracing or DXR for short. DXR is definitely getting the spotlight spot, but that comes more to the fact it's easily marketable feature.
DirectX 12 Ultimate isn't called DXR, usually it's either DirectX 12 or DX12 (which are inaccurate, but Ultimate marketing never really kicked off and in the end it's just few added features over DirectX 12).

The discussion shouldnt be about what is "better". In both cases the artist has displayed reflections on the water. Now think about a critique erasing these reflections from the image. Would you call it "better looking"?

This is what this youtube channel is doing. They are changing the vision of the artist.

Right, because reflections can't exist without raytracing? There's a difference with raytraced reflections and others, but they're still reflections.

 

[DavidGraham]

Regardless of adoption rate you simply can't condense DirectX 12 Ultimate to just DirectX Raytracing or DXR for short.

I can actually, DXR has existed alone for two years, from 2018 to 2020. Then Microsoft released DX12 Ultimate with 4 other features that has seen close to zero adoption, while DXR continues to flourish unhindered and with an accelerating pace. Thus the only thing that truly mattered for 5 years straight has been DXR, which should get tested extensively by any outlets that is considered respectable under the sun. Imagine ignoring testing DX11/10/9 games for 5 consecutive years because of: reasons!

 

[Daozang]

Here are two paintings of boats on water. This is impressionism (left) vs realism (right). Do you think there's some objective way to measure that realism is better? Is the painting on left less good because it is less concerned with accuracy? Those answers will be highly subjective.

I'd like that Monet a lot more than I already do, if I just got a bit of illumination from those orange tones on the rest of the environment.

 

[Putas]

However, ray tracing is about dynamism, making everything not static. Reflections, lighting and shadows become more dynamic, then even your stylized world become more immersive and far less incoherent or distracting.

That is just your subjective view.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

That is just your subjective view.

I think that's the view of most pundits in the field.

 

[trinibwoy]

I think that's the view of most pundits in the field.

I'm guessing he's referring to the "more immersive" stylized world comment. That is subjective. Don't think anyone would argue about the dynamic lighting bit.

 

[Putas]

I'm guessing he's referring to the "more immersive" stylized world comment. That is subjective. Don't think anyone would argue about the dynamic lighting bit.

True. Also, I take issue with incoherence being a negative. There are artistically desirable incoherences.
I am terrified of settling on realistic ray-traced lighting. I hope it can be bent against the laws of physics or we are stuck in a very boring (and static) box.