US$199 quad core tablet - is it the end for handheld consoles?

[Arwin]

There is a stylus from adonit call jot touch, which has pressure sensitive tip on the stylus itself (up to 240 different pressure point I think). Was suppose to come out in may but has been delayed for months. It was the main reason why I got the new ipad, that retina res + procreate + jot touch seems like a good and cheap alternative for painting than buying a wacom.

Perhaps it will need / want to wait an iOS upgrade and won't release until iOS6? No idea, but it does sound good.

I also found the following 'pens' that seem interesting - some are actually brushes:
http://www.nomadbrush.com/
Which isn't that expensive either and got very good reviews, so I decided to give this one a go. Will give impressions when I get it.

http://www.pengopaint.com/
With changeable tips

 

[Gitaroo]

no, I don't think it got anything to do with iOS, more like getting the developers to integrate that into their software. I regretted geting sketchbook pro over procreate, and procreate is suppose to be one the first to support jot touch. ipad 3 is my first iOS device, should have read more carefully when I purchase any software.

 

[Arwin]

no, I don't think it got anything to do with iOS, more like getting the developers to integrate that into their software. I regretted geting sketchbook pro over procreate, and procreate is suppose to be one the first to support jot touch. ipad 3 is my first iOS device, should have read more carefully when I purchase any software.

I have a hard time regretting something as decent as Sketchbook Pro at that price though? I think I paid like 5 euros for it? Seems ridiculously cheap?

So is ProCreate better? I'll get that as well then.

 

[Gitaroo]

sketchbook itself isn't bad, but when I found about about procreate, which has 16 layers support, compare to something like 6 on sketchbook I think. native .psd file and other format support that let you export to any graphic editing on pc to finish off your job and drop box upload etc. Just tons more features for the same price. Kind of wish they would make it for android. Would pick up a 2560X1600 android tablet with bigger screen in the future.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The ASUS tablet's don't look as slick as the rivals, but I guses there's some functionality there as there is room for holding them. I do look forward to a future of A4 and 7" tablets with virtually no bezel.

This thing is _slick_ as hell, you really gotta hold it to appreciate. It's so small. It's like a Playbook, but shorter (wider aspect ratio).

I find it's most comfortable to hold with one hand on the bezel, and one hand to do all the swiping, so the thumb-width bezel is much appreciated, it could probably be a little thinner, but unlike the 1.5lb beast that is the iPad, this is something you can easily hold in one hand, just .75lbs.

Really really love this thing... can't wait till I get mine in the mail and can stop using the work one! Without question this will replace my iPad 2 as the day to day goto.

 

[trinibwoy]

I got my shipment notification so hopefully it arrives soon. It's doubtful that I'll be able to play with it this weekend though. It'll be my first Android device. Had a chance to play with a buddy's SGS3 and wasn't impressed at all but I'm sure it will grow on me.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Do tablets with Wacom-like pressure sensitive surfaces exist (I bought myself a Wacom Cintiq last week and I'm loving the hell out of it, but it's about 10 kilos and requires a PC to function)? That would be the only thing I'd be interested in in a tablet. No need for an over-sized smartphone unfortunately.

Not sure if there are Android versions with anything similar. But there are quite a few Windows 7 slates with pressure sensitive Wacom digitizers that people use as cheap Cintiq alternatives. They lack some features that Cintiq has but on the other hand are significantly cheaper and more portable.

If you look into one for something like that, you'll want to make sure it has at least an i3 or i5 CPU however. Atom based slates aren't responsive enough for accurate drawing. And make sure to use one first before buying to make sure it fits your sketching style.

Regards,
SB

 

[liolio]

A bit OT:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...f_the_next_generation_continues_its_delay.php
Then there is this:
http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mi...ggest-gaming-platform-ever-by-the-end-of-2012

Well I think he has a point, the Android users base is awaking to gaming it seems and there is Win8 coming.
He's not saying that console would disappear but that they would not come first in players mind.
If editors were to start making good money on mobile devices while lowering the risks (dev costs significantly down) the side effect is that powerful consoles hardware may end under used quiet often.

There is also the PC world, for me the natural evolution is for discrete GPU to disappear sooner than latter. Windows being available on tab may accelerate that trend. Editors may want to produce games that run well enough on x86 tablets.

All that should happen within the life spam of next generation system.

I've something in my mind of late, it's about the hidden ace in sleeves that I would say tiny devices have vs devices connected to proper display (PC or Consoles).
I believe that the hidden ace in the sleeves they have is our eyes. As pixel density is higher, the display tinier I believe that you can use so much more tricks before the user actually notice something. It makes me think of Crytech talk about perception driven rendering.
So I believe that rendering requirement are not a factor of the number of pixel you have to push. You can cheat so much more on a tablet.

Then there is a the screen quality is imo higher than the majority of the tv out there.

I don't know how it's gonna turn out but it's definitively something to keep in mind. Tablets can achieve imo the same perceived quality as a high end system at a fraction of the cost, in a proportion greater than the difference in resolution may imply.

 

[Arwin]

But that's the same argument that says that we don't really need to go beyond 720p on consoles. Looking at some of the better looking titles on consoles, just increasing pixel sharpness is probably the least of our needs right now to have a bigger impact, and vast amounts of power for smoke effects, lots of moving and living parts and more physics is much more likely to increase the visual experience. Getting resolution up to 1080p, which would look much better on most TVs, is secondary to all of those things.

That's not to say there isn't a large market for smaller games and experiences, and for that, Android being free, I would personally probably do something like run a sandboxed Android VM on the PS4 (though knowing Sony, a version of Playstation Mobile may be more likely). The next Xbox is similarly very likely to be capable of running a lot of what appears on the Windows 8 App Store.

So yeah, I expect a lot more convergence, but smartphones and tablets are like PCs, with all the variation in performance and resolutions and different OS versions and all the headaches that come with it, so like the handhelds, I'm definitely not counting them out.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Tablets will never be my primary gaming device for the sole reason that I like to do my primary gaming sat comfortably on a couch in front a nice big tv screen i paid hundreds of pounds for for that reason.

Sure you can hook up a tablet to a tv, but why do that when you can have orders of magnitude more power in a console or PC permanently connected to your TV.

It isn't like i'm poor enough that I can't have both a tablet and a console. However my tablet is used primarily for my multi-media functions, e-reading, and I also do a lot of writing on it. Gaming is just not really suited to tablets, and especially for long periods as there is no posture that I can take that allows me to sit comfortably for long periods staring at a tablet screen. Give me a comfy couch and wireless controller in hand anyday.

I'd much rather be able to have a home console and tablet/dedicated gaming handheld duo that interface with each other. Give me a portable gaming device that i can stream to my TV through my console effortlessly if I feel that way inclined. And a console that gives me all the trimmings and power of a full on home console.

Then there's things like motion control that i'm personally rather fond of, that don't work at all on tablets (save gyros, which have limited use on their own). I love PS Move and its use in games like Sorcery, KZ3, R3, Mag and InFamous 2 etc, there's nothing on tablets that would afford me the same kind of feel and enjoyment.

 

[wco81]

There will be people who will buy tablets as well as consoles.

But there will also be a lot of people who will buy one or the other. Right now, there are more tablet (specifically iPad) buyers.

Question is whether gaming and other entertainment options on tablets will be sufficient to keep a lot of these tablet buyers from buying a console as well. Certainly looks like handhelds have been impacted by smart phones and tablets.

 

[liolio]

But that's the same argument that says that we don't really need to go beyond 720p on consoles. Looking at some of the better looking titles on consoles, just increasing pixel sharpness is probably the least of our needs right now to have a bigger impact, and vast amounts of power for smoke effects, lots of moving and living parts and more physics is much more likely to increase the visual experience. Getting resolution up to 1080p, which would look much better on most TVs, is secondary to all of those things.

That's pushing a bit, ain't it? 1080P make a difference on a tv especially a big one and if you stand not too far from it but that's not in the same ballpark as say a tablet, pixel density is way higher but more on my point the pixels are so tiny.
I notice on my phone that I don't have much complain about the textures quality because pretty much too tiny details are lost and I've a really good eye sight.
When I tried Onlive on my phone (though even tinier than a tablet) I fell like it's a bit overkill. Some details are lost.
There are plenty of stuffs tough to notice, I'm confident that for example particles render at a lower resolutions would go unnoticed. You could have way more aggressive lod without noticing.
Actually I would not be surprised if thing like dithering could go unnoticed.
I wish I could test for my self Mass effect on a really tiny display to see the impact of pixel density on the gross shadows in the game. I would bet it gets less obvious.
I'm not advocatic for shitty self shadow, just that some artefacts could go unnoticed.
Overall I do agree with you on physics, lighning/shadow, etc. It's really noticeable even on a tab.
Actually as the screen is pretty easily saturated with details I would say that it's more important that IQ overall.
But there again I expect many tricks to help and to go unnoticed.

That's not to say there isn't a large market for smaller games and experiences, and for that, Android being free, I would personally probably do something like run a sandboxed Android VM on the PS4 (though knowing Sony, a version of Playstation Mobile may be more likely). The next Xbox is similarly very likely to be capable of running a lot of what appears on the Windows 8 App Store.

Well I don't think tablet gaming is confine to tiny games, social, etc. There are more and more quality games on those devices, and it still far from mature though (still it's changing pretty fast).

So yeah, I expect a lot more convergence, but smartphones and tablets are like PCs, with all the variation in performance and resolutions and different OS versions and all the headaches that come with it, so like the handhelds, I'm definitely not counting them out.

I expect the difference in the pc world to be leveled as APU are set to kill discrete GPU.
The dynamic of having an Apps store for win8 is going to hurt ultimately pc gaming as we know it.
Why develop for high end and cut your self for all the compatible devices likely to be less powerful?
And who speak about killing the console just now? The guy just said that home console may no longer be what gamers reach first when they want to play, there is quiet a difference. I won't defend a point I didn't make or even Yerli (which I guess opinion is more relevant than mine) didn't make either.

 

[joker454]

Question is whether gaming and other entertainment options on tablets will be sufficient to keep a lot of these tablet buyers from buying a console as well. Certainly looks like handhelds have been impacted by smart phones and tablets.

I think the question is a little more involved than that. Very soon I’ll be able to buy a game and use it on my pc, laptop and x86 tablet. That’s one game purchase and the same executable is useable on multiple devices, full on high end pc, convenient laptop and go anywhere long battery life use it on the hammock tablet. So I find myself asking, why would I want to buy a console that forces me to rebuy games which only work on it, and won’t look as good as on my pc anyways and won’t be portable like tablet? Yeah there are some unique games on console, but there are more unique games on pc and tablet. So what’s the benefit to being forced to rebuy everything? It makes having a console incredibly expensive when comparatively I can just share all my existing purchases on all my other devices.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I think the question is a little more involved than that. Very soon I’ll be able to buy a game and use it on my pc, laptop and x86 tablet. That’s one game purchase and the same executable is useable on multiple devices, full on high end pc, convenient laptop and go anywhere long battery life use it on the hammock tablet. So I find myself asking, why would I want to buy a console that forces me to rebuy games which only work on it, and won’t look as good as on my pc anyways and won’t be portable like tablet? Yeah there are some unique games on console, but there are more unique games on pc and tablet. So what’s the benefit to being forced to rebuy everything? It makes having a console incredibly expensive when comparatively I can just share all my existing purchases on all my other devices.

I'm not sure that your point about games not looking as good as on PC stands when you're talking about games that are portable and playable on your PC, laptop and tablet. There's no way a game that exceeds next-gen console quality on PC will be playable on your tablet (or your laptop depending on the laptop you have). So you're "eco-system" benefit goes out the window, because those games will be playable only on the one platform in the same way that console games would be on a console.

Plus for many people, portability is not really an issue. The kinds of games you'd want to play on a console are not the kinds of games that are suited to mobile gaming on the go anyway (remember the constant parroted ramblings in the old Vita threads anyone?). So portability really is a moot point. Who cares if you can only play Halo on the NextBox. Most people would only want to play it on their Xbox anyway, because its the kind of game you enjoy when you're at home and relaxed in your livingroom/bedroom/dormroom etc, and you have a nice fast and reliable internet connection.

I can't see anyone wanting to trade their high end Halo X console experience for a stripped down, touchscreen control, poor quality clone on their tablet solely for the benefit of portability. Ergo tablets, and consoles will co-exist happily together. And the mainstream prevailing majority have and never will care about PC gaming beyond MMOs and casual facebook/browser games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure that your point about games not looking as good as on PC stands when you're talking about games that are portable and playable on your PC, laptop and tablet. There's no way a game that exceeds next-gen console quality on PC will be playable on your tablet (or your laptop depending on the laptop you have). So you're "eco-system" benefit goes out the window, because those games will be playable only on the one platform in the same way that console games would be on a console.

Joker's talking about scalable engines. Of course the mobile experience won't look anything like as good as the console or PC counterpart, but then it's portable.

Plus for many people, portability is not really an issue. The kinds of games you'd want to play on a console are not the kinds of games that are suited to mobile gaming on the go anyway (remember the constant parroted ramblings in the old Vita threads anyone?). So portability really is a moot point. Who cares if you can only play Halo on the NextBox.

It extends to more games than just the AAA. I'm playing mostly PSN titles on my PS3 these days. I'd rather have a platform where I can buy Puzzle Quest or PvZ and play it on all devices as suitable. And I'd like to be able to play games anywhere too. The idea of being able to take a tablet with you on work or holiday and continue your current game is a compelling advantage, even if it doesn't get much use. This is going to happen whether by multiple device support of the gaming ecosystem, or streamed games.

I can't see anyone wanting to trade their high end Halo X console experience for a stripped down, touchscreen control, poor quality clone on their tablet solely for the benefit of portability.

Again, there are lots of games. Some games may not work well on oprtables, but if you have controller support, that's not a huge issue. Imagine if Halo X works on both PC and tablet. You can play local separate screen coop with a friend with one on the TV and another using the tablet as a screen with a controller.

I'm actually considering whether a PS4 would make sense for me. If I'm considering upgrading PC, that money could be spent on a better PC. As PCs move towards the convenience of a console, and the console move towards the inconvenience of a PC, the value of a console is decreasing. Maybe I'd rather have an Android PC in my living room in a few years than a PS4 or XBMetro? Sony's response to this is to get a foot into the Android market with PS Mobility. They will seek to offer exactly what Joker is talking about through Android and games that run on all devices. I guess with their Gaikai purchase they'll also offer full console games on the go too.

Given all of this, what is the advantage of the console that means it maintains its worth? Traditionally it was better hardware per buck because the hardware was subsidised, better use of the hardware, and better games. The games are becoming very crossplatform. The hardware utilisation is being diminished by middleware. The price of tech two years after launch means you can pick up comparable PC parts for the same price or less. You're left with an exclusive experience (XMB is very straightforward on PS3) and exclusive games.

Consoles are definitely getting squeezed, exactly the same as Vita and handhelds only less strongly at the moment. It'll happen though.

 

[liolio]

Joker's talking about scalable engines. Of course the mobile experience won't look anything like as good as the console or PC counterpart, but then it's portable.

PC games are already scalable for most part.

It extends to more games than just the AAA. I'm playing mostly PSN titles on my PS3 these days. I'd rather have a platform where I can buy Puzzle Quest or PvZ and play it on all devices as suitable. And I'd like to be able to play games anywhere too. The idea of being able to take a tablet with you on work or holiday and continue your current game is a compelling advantage, even if it doesn't get much use. This is going to happen whether by multiple device support of the gaming ecosystem, or streamed games.

Pretty much like a laptop already. The problem is both hardware and software. Most nowadays laptops are underpowered, most nowadays software is built for 100Watts graphic cards.
I expect things to change as the gap between high-end and low is to imho to diminish.
Discrete GPU for the mass market are on their way out, won't happen all of sudden, but the up coming progress on the bandwidth front (wide IO etc.) are going to give integrated graphic solution the boost they need to take over.
Once you have decent GPU performance in most shipping product, an apps store, I would be surprised if editors continue to push on the performance front only to cut them selves of a big markets. Won't happen in one days or not all editors will default of of sudden but when I read people complaining about how consoles hold back the PC gaming it makes me smile. PC gaming is to hold back PC gaming soon.

Again, there are lots of games. Some games may not work well on oprtables, but if you have controller support, that's not a huge issue. Imagine if Halo X works on both PC and tablet. You can play local separate screen coop with a friend with one on the TV and another using the tablet as a screen with a controller.

the 360 and ps3 controller already work on Android, I suspect it's the same on iOS. The issue is more software, there is no clear support. But the gaming market is quickly evolving on those devices and windows is coming.

I'm actually considering whether a PS4 would make sense for me. If I'm considering upgrading PC, that money could be spent on a better PC. As PCs move towards the convenience of a console, and the console move towards the inconvenience of a PC, the value of a console is decreasing. Maybe I'd rather have an Android PC in my living room in a few years than a PS4 or XBMetro? Sony's response to this is to get a foot into the Android market with PS Mobility. They will seek to offer exactly what Joker is talking about through Android and games that run on all devices. I guess with their Gaikai purchase they'll also offer full console games on the go too.

I'm not sure about how relevant is Sony in the Apple/Google/Msft fight, imo they are not.
I'm not sure to get your post though. I've no idea about what I'm gonna do as both systems are still in the shadows and we know few about what they have to offer.

Given all of this, what is the advantage of the console that means it maintains its worth? Traditionally it was better hardware per buck because the hardware was subsidised, better use of the hardware, and better games.

Let see how Orbis and Durango are looking both at the software and hardware.

The games are becoming very crossplatform. The hardware utilization is being diminished by middleware.

I would not do this statement, it sounds exactly like saying lack of tools for the Cell helps hardware utilization.
The real threat is if consoles ends on the wrong side of technology evolutions.
Say they launch potent hardware next years, and at a usual price (say 399$), one year or two in the generation wide IO, memory stacking, etc are becoming standard and they face competition with potent devices sold @99$. They came wiht plain OS and many games. In two or three years I expect the gaming market on iOS, Android to have mature and found its pace.
It's extremely bothering especially for Sony and Nintendo as MS has an OS.

I don't agree with Joker about the ps4 and SOny relevance going forward, but I would be extremely concern if they try to compete head to head with MS this time around. Like Nintendo (whether they always succeed or not) they have to find their "ways".
If I were them I would not bet the house on the ps4 neither lock my self in a long generation. It's really risky. Imho they would better ship something mostly game oriented, potent enough but cheap and without taking a loss on the hardware.

Anyway point is OSes are becoming more relevant than hardware by selves on all the markets. It would be painfully obvious to Sony if for example the next box run even an incomplete version of win8 and they ends up in the same price range and ballpark wrt to 3D performances.

EDIT
To put things into perspective of the evolution in the mobile real and then considering how wide IO could make those hardware even more threatening:
http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...mate_WQXGA_Solution_with_Exynos_5_Dual_WP.pdf
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/07/arm-mali-t604-hands-on/

 

[tuna]

I think the question is a little more involved than that. Very soon I’ll be able to buy a game and use it on my pc, laptop and x86 tablet. That’s one game purchase and the same executable is useable on multiple devices, full on high end pc, convenient laptop and go anywhere long battery life use it on the hammock tablet. So I find myself asking, why would I want to buy a console that forces me to rebuy games which only work on it, and won’t look as good as on my pc anyways and won’t be portable like tablet? Yeah there are some unique games on console, but there are more unique games on pc and tablet. So what’s the benefit to being forced to rebuy everything? It makes having a console incredibly expensive when comparatively I can just share all my existing purchases on all my other devices.

How will you control the games that are playable on these 3 devices?

 

[liolio]

How will you control the games that are playable on these 3 devices?

Controller? KB=M? Touch screen?
Lot of games on PC are already supporting the first 2 options.

That's argument is getting old. More and more people play and enjoy touch controls. They aren't not perfect pretty much like pad or KB+M.
EDIT
People had teh same argument vs pad before FPS really took over in the console realm. Still a pad is no where near as good as KB+M (putting two good player on say something like Quake3 would clear any doubt...).
I don't think Diablo/Titan quest/ sacred for the arpg and play of RPG would play well on a pad whereas on a tab with a stylus it would be extremely straight forward.

 

[joker454]

How will you control the games that are playable on these 3 devices?

All those devices I mentioned support the wireless 360 controller out of the box, and I have four 360 controllers lying around. Mouse control is replaced with touch. So control is a non issue on all of those devices, it's a "problem" that's already long since been solved.

Contrast that to the console experience. I'm playing Pinball Arcade lately on the 360. I'm going on a trip next week it would be cool to play it while travelling. Can I? Nope, my purchase is locked to the 360 connected to the tv. Ok well it's a nice day outside today, I'd like to lounge on my hammock and play some pinball outside. Can I? Nope, my purchase is locked to the 360 connected to the tv. Ok well I'm using my laptop while sitting on the couch and my wife is watching tv, hmm I feel like playing that pinball game I paid for on my laptop. Can I? Nope, my purchase is locked to the 360 connected to the tv. Ok, well I'm in my office right now typing this post and I wouldn't mind playing some Pinball on my pc after I'm done with this post. Can I? Nope, my purchase is locked to the 360 connected to the tv.

Sorry but that console "user experience" long term to me is a total dead end especially since it's completely unnecessary for it to be that way. Ultimately if the Xbox 720 requires me to rebuy everything when I already have pc/laptop/tablet that can already play great games and share my same purchases then I may just pass on the Xbox 720 completely unless it can manage to provide something so astronomically amazing that I must have it. Given that it will likely be competing with the Nvidia 780 that will be in my pc at that point, I highly doubt it will win on visuals so they will need some incredible must have games for me to care, or if Kinect 2 is just that good that I have to try it. A console at this point represents extra expensive in every way shape and form as I will already have a pc/laptop/tablet regardless of games. If they want to justify a Xbox 720 purchase then it will need to share apps just like all my other Windows 8 based devices do. If not, then I'll have plenty of entertainment on my other said devices so no loss. I really hope Microsoft is smart enough to bring their next console properly into their own ecosystem.

 

[Arwin]

PC gaming is to hold back PC gaming soon.

This has always been the case though. PC games target a much larger number of PCs than those which have 1 year old high-end GPUs and have done so for a long time already. Of course, I agree that there is a chance this will get even worse in the future.

the 360 and ps3 controller already work on Android, I suspect it's the same on iOS.

You suspect wrong. iOS is a closed system that you cannot easily develop drivers for, and there is hardly any game that supports controllers on iOS. This is very different from Android. It does matter, because iOS is sitll by far the biggest of these two when it comes to gaming, and revenue from gaming.

I'm not sure about how relevant is Sony in the Apple/Google/Msft fight, imo they are not.

They may end up helping Android if Playstation Mobile becomes a success, but we'll see.

In two or three years I expect the gaming market on iOS, Android to have mature and found its pace.
It's extremely bothering especially for Sony and Nintendo as MS has an OS.

Such rapid development of the platform is a mixed blessing. It will simply mean there are a lot of devices out there that are not up to par. Perhaps the replacement ratio of portable devices is currently still high, which helped PC a lot back in the day, but this will slow down. I already know a lot of people who bought an iPad 1, who are unlikely to buy a new tablet anywhere in the new future. I think it is not that far fetched to assume a 5 year replacement rate for tablets for the mainstream.

With fragmented OSs, hardware, resolutions (including tablet display vs tv support) and input options, the iOS/Android/Win8 platforms are not quite ready yet to be a better proposition than consoles for all purposes. They fill the gap between PC, console, and portable gaming device, and while they no doubt have overlap with all of them to some extent, there is plenty of room for more devices, and services like GaiKai/OnLive won't go away either.

I predict that the market quite simply will keep growing as a whole as these types of electronic devices become ever more popular in our livingrooms. The big question for all players will be how to take and keep a meaningful, and above all, profitable share from that market.