US$199 quad core tablet - is it the end for handheld consoles?

[Exophase]

Won't be niche for long although I don't think because of Android. The Surface x86 tablets have 360 controller support standard, hdmi out standard, and with x86 hardware and ~360 level of graphics means an enormous back library of x86 games can be tweaked to also work with touch along with the standard keyboard that already comes with it with minimal effort. With millions (over time) already owning these Surface tablets means it won't be a niche form of gaming for much longer, especially once prices inevitably drop. If they allow one app purchase on the app store to let that app work on your pc, laptop and Surface x86 devices then that will help adoption even more. It may be niche today but I don't think it will be that long before it becomes mainstream.

So we agree that right now there are a lot of games that need traditional physical controls and a lot of gamers that want to play these games with these kinds of controls. Personally I don't even want to play JRPGs with a touchscreen over a controller, but I digress on that point.

What you're describing is a scenario where tablets with HDMI out and XBox controllers replace consoles. The thread is about them replacing handhelds. Carrying a tablet and controller around with you is not the same as carrying a handheld gaming device. You can't pull the tablet and controller out of your pocket and start playing it on the bus or between classes or whatever (one of Nintendo's major handheld market is children). Even during long car and plane trips it'd be a pain because you have to set the thing up somewhere while you hold the controller. Laying it on your lap would be uncomfortable to look at.

So you're back to replacing consoles. Sure, this can work for some people. Surface isn't going to have XBox 360 level graphics but it'll be able to do a lot of home games. Of course you're looking at new tablet hardware vs really old console hardware. The console hardware is the best we've got now but will be replaced eventually. Then you'll get a much bigger advantage with them. It's inevitable, you can't really fight a 100-200W+ power budget with a < 10W one.

Tablets sit between handhelds and home TV devices and computers.. they have some advantages of all of them but they can't really displace everything on their own.

 

[eastmen]

Won't be niche for long although I don't think because of Android. The Surface x86 tablets have 360 controller support standard, hdmi out standard, and with x86 hardware and ~360 level of graphics means an enormous back library of x86 games can be tweaked to also work with touch along with the standard keyboard that already comes with it with minimal effort. With millions (over time) already owning these Surface tablets means it won't be a niche form of gaming for much longer, especially once prices inevitably drop. If they allow one app purchase on the app store to let that app work on your pc, laptop and Surface x86 devices then that will help adoption even more. It may be niche today but I don't think it will be that long before it becomes mainstream.

I'm a huge fan of surface and x86 tablets in general but seriously ?

The surface will use some form of ivybridge ulv chip. Here is the performance range of that.

The thing wont be good for much more than 2 years and older games. I think its going to take an act of god to get more gaming power into the surface. Even if they get haswel since this wont be out till 2013 anyway what will we see 40% better performance ? Your looking at $800 + for the surface. A $500 2013 console will blow the surface away in every metric that matters. a $800 dedicated gaming device of 2013 or even a $200-$300 one would likely blow away the surface.

 

[joker454]

What you're describing is a scenario where tablets with HDMI out and XBox controllers replace consoles. The thread is about them replacing handhelds.

The point is that people are willing to accept certain levels of compromise to use the device they want. Consoles are a compromise, they are old and dated but they supply a satisying level of performance to a certain fanbase who keep buying them because in spite of their limitations they are good enough. Tablets are the same thing, to a certain portion of the population they will be good enough and will be able to replace both handhelds and consoles. Just like a pc gamer who can't fathom how a console player can stomach such crappy console hardware yet this console player had no idea what the pc user is complaining about since their console is good enough to them, you will next have console gamers scratching their heads how a tablet gamer can stomach such crappy tablet hardware and same tablet user will have no idea what the console gamer is complaing about because to them their tablet is good enough. How big this audience will be I have no idea, but just like many pc gamers defected to consoles because they became good enough, likewise I think many handheld and console gamers will defect to tablets as it will be a device they already own and it will provide a good enough experience. It may be able to save them money as well if the same apps that work on their x86 tablet also work on their x86 laptops and pc's, and since they support 360 controllers out of the box means broad controller support as/if needed so they wouldn't be limited to just angry birds clones (typical argument that gets made). Likewise being x86 based means there is a 30 year backlog of games that can now be converted to touch and made to run on these tablets for very low cost.

I'm a huge fan of surface and x86 tablets in general but seriously ?

Those benchmarks don't really mean anything because medium detail level doesn't mean anything. What would be more ideal is a "Tablet" detail setting customized to 10" screens running with an ivy bridge level of gpu. That way they can pick what graphical details to remove that wouldn't be considered a huge visual loss at 10" of screen space, plus they could remove the more performance draining settings that ivy bridge gpu's are weak at to get better performance bang for the buck. Current "medium detail" settings don't take any of that into account at all right now so they are not a good way to determine what real performance once could get on gaming on a 10" ivy tablet. Same for using it on a large screen, you can't just generically scale back settings and call it "medium", you need to see what ivy bridge gpu is weak at when rendering at 1280x720 and scale back from there. That's what I do when I tweak graphics settings, I don't jsut dial it all back to medium, you first scale back what your gpu happens to be particularly weak at. Finally, you picked the corest of the core games in that list, theres a million other games out there that will run plenty fine on a tablet gpu. Jsut because someone can't play one uber core game at 30fps with max detail doesn't mean they wouldn't consider just gaming on their tablet if it was good enough at most games, and saved them from having to spend another $400 on a new console or video card. I think the market for the "tablet gamer" is coming, we'll have to see how it pans out.

 

[eastmen]

Those benchmarks don't really mean anything because medium detail level doesn't mean anything. What would be more ideal is a "Tablet" detail setting customized to 10" screens running with an ivy bridge level of gpu. That way they can pick what graphical details to remove that wouldn't be considered a huge visual loss at 10" of screen space, plus they could remove the more performance draining settings that ivy bridge gpu's are weak at to get better performance bang for the buck. Current "medium detail" settings don't take any of that into account at all right now so they are not a good way to determine what real performance once could get on gaming on a 10" ivy tablet. Same for using it on a large screen, you can't just generically scale back settings and call it "medium", you need to see what ivy bridge gpu is weak at when rendering at 1280x720 and scale back from there. That's what I do when I tweak graphics settings, I don't jsut dial it all back to medium, you first scale back what your gpu happens to be particularly weak at. Finally, you picked the corest of the core games in that list, theres a million other games out there that will run plenty fine on a tablet gpu. Jsut because someone can't play one uber core game at 30fps with max detail doesn't mean they wouldn't consider just gaming on their tablet if it was good enough at most games, and saved them from having to spend another $400 on a new console or video card. I think the market for the "tablet gamer" is coming, we'll have to see how it pans out.

This is just a review but even if you spend time tweaking (which is something that the masses hate ) your still not going to squeeze water from a stone.

You state the games I picked are core games , but this is just the first review i could find on a cpu likely to be in the surface pro and they have a good mix of genres . Not to mention that in the next year or so we will see a new crop of games that are even more demanding.

Sure ivybridge ulv is prob awsome at cut the rope and where's my water , however then we are back to the same shallow experiances we find on current tablets.

Anyone semi interested in gaming would pick a dedicated device over a tablet for gaming. A next gen console and heck mabye even a current gen console would offer a better experiance while even a cheap computer will offer a better one . Even a cheap $800 desktop replacement laptop would offer better.

 

[liolio]

You think zelda OOT , Mario kart and Mario land 3d would work pretty well on a 7 inch tab? These are 3 of the best selling 3ds games and i'm going to argue that not a single one will be remotely playble on a tablet without some kind of controller which would end up making the tablet basicly a monitor

Well I'm not adverse to touch input, it's more a matter of getting use to them than anything else.
Of the three game you chose I would say only Mario land could prove non optimal as mario game are usually pretty tough.
I played I don't know which super mario on my wife's DS lite and hated it. I would prefer a touch screen. No analog stick sucks for 3d games, not too mention no dual analog sticks.
For me once you take in account multi touch and accelerometer the phone/tablet already out do the DS. They have their strength. But good luck playing, geometry war or gun bros on a DS or even a 3ds, there are no dual analog sticks.

To some extend (given triggers) I would prefer using a touch screen emulating a dual analog set-up than the super tiny one we have on the 3ds or the vita.

Honestly that whole posture against touch is way over the top. It's great, it fails at some game style still it provides a lot more option than what the original DS and Psp were provided with.

The market you speak about is more about people that don't want to move away than core gamers (which is abused and no longer means anything). It's like when I went back to gaming moving from original pad to KB+M I would have said I pass because dual analog stick sucks badly vs KB+M which is undisputable in a lot of case.
There are corner cases where I agree, you need buttons but it's not like all handled are perfect, the 3ds imho sucks whereas the PSV offers everything a phone can do as far as input are concerned and more.

Overall it comes down to how relevant how that kind of core games to the overall market of mobile gamers. Sales speak for them selves: less and less.

As a side note there are plenty of sub optimal games to say the least when it comes to touch screen implementation. It's one thing to call out a bad implementation or many another to discard touch control all together.

As for "core gamers" and Windows 8, games like mass effect infiltrators, the geow like, deep space are better indication than what we call now PC gaming.
I expect the quality of those games to improve fast if the dominant share in computing devices including now ones running windows consist in a lot of low power machines.

 

[joker454]

Anyone semi interested in gaming would pick a dedicated device over a tablet for gaming. A next gen console and heck mabye even a current gen console would offer a better experiance while even a cheap computer will offer a better one . Even a cheap $800 desktop replacement laptop would offer better.

I don't know if that's universally true anymore. Hardcore folk will buy it all, but those semi interested in gaming may not need a handheld or console especially if they already have a tablet, which millions will. I look at articles like this:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/12/06/27/epics_infinity_blade_for_ios_more_profitable_than_gears_of_war.html

...which tells me that not only is there an underserved market namely tablet owners craving better games, but also that it's possible to make good cash in that market with far less risk than traditional games. I think it's too tasty of a market to ignore, and a standard x86 tablet will be impossible to not target by publishers and developers. Like I stated elsewhere I figure devs will make games compatible on as many platforms as they can to minimize risk so I'm assuming we'll see lots of software for x86 tablets because it's already similar to the pc platform so costs to port games over are minimal. I already think handhelds are dead because of phones, and tablets will be the final nails in their coffin. Now I'm curious how many will pass on spending another $400 on a console and just stick to their pc/tablet instead. Mind you I'm secretly hoping Microsoft goes x86 on their next console as well and makes the apps cross compatible, so that I buy an app once on their app store and I can use it on my pc, tablet and console.

 

[fehu]

yah, i'm happy for epic, but i don't want an on the rail fruit ninja

make a dedicated line of Nexus Play with decent buttons and analog, and I'm sold

 

[Shifty Geezer]

even with simple old games you had the mouse and at least one button, and no one of this occupied half of the screen like your hand does

The presence of a finger doesn't stop the game being a game in it's own right. Megalomania and Populous and Cannon Fodder and Lemmings are perfect fits for a tablet, and they are 'real games'.

 

[fehu]

Ok, I was exagerating a little to explain my point of view, and my favorite games on my phone are chess and solitaire.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to have something to play on a tablet, but dumbing down the controls you necessarily have simpler games that often play it by themselves, and using your hand you cover the screen (this is mine main source of game over in traffic control for example) :/

Consoles have more than one advantage, and there's a lot of people that like that advantages.
Look at the DS vs. iPhone, someone thinks that nintendo was badly damaged or sold noticeably less for the existence of another device?

 

[V3]

I think there is a market for a dedicated gaming tablet. Something like a '3DS Tablet' with dual 8" touch screens, dual analog pads, buttons and d-pad, along with SD Card support and maybe qHD resolution and better hardware specs, would make a good product IMO. Maybe have other OS feature that can boot Android to compete with other general tablet out there.

But yeah, I think these tablets and smartphones will kill handheld consoles. Kids that grew up with these probably prefer device without buttons anyway. Games like Zelda OOT and Mario 3D Land can be adapted to just touch screen control and it should still play well, might be even easier and more accessible even. Buttons are just hard compare to touchscreen.

 

[antwan]

I think it is rather the end of the other (mostly garbage) android tablets:
all android tablets to this point were always lagging behind with regards to updates.
Buy a google tablet and you will have the update day one.

The games on android still suck, imo. Not when compared to DS or PSP Vita, but when compared to iOS.

 

[Florin]

Not that I expect them to actually come up with this, but it wouldn't be particularly hard to make a back cover with a game pad on one end (or even on both ends) that you click the Nexus 7 into. The USB port is conveniently located in the middle of one of the short edges of the tablet, and attaching such a game pad extender there would allow for both portrait or landscape mode gaming. The Tegra 3 platform already supports the XBox 360 controller (among others) in all THD games.

Making this optional peripheral would 1) do nothing to detract from the tablet's styling as a serious business or lifestyle device 2) be a starting point for a viable accessory aftermarket with cool backplate designs and 3) allow bigger and better thumbsticks than dedicated portable gaming devices tend to have.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There have been mobile adaptors in the past. A friend had a plug-in controller for his phone to play games. The problem with optional adaptors is that you can't target them as a designer, so have to target just the screens, so the games won't fully benefit from the adaptor. Something like Gaikai of PSMobile that runs the same games on diferent devices including those with full controls will promote adaptors though, until they become commonplace.

 

[antwan]

There have been mobile adaptors in the past. A friend had a plug-in controller for his phone to play games. The problem with optional adaptors is that you can't target them as a designer, so have to target just the screens, so the games won't fully benefit from the adaptor. Something like Gaikai of PSMobile that runs the same games on diferent devices including those with full controls will promote adaptors though, until they become commonplace.

I believe there was an apple patent for a universal controller attachment.
A lot of games already have (onscreen) 'analog sticks' controls, and they sell reasonably well (NOVA, etc) so these type of games could easily use such a controller; in a way they were already designed for it.
It the button layout is the same between all controllers then even Android devices could benefit from such attachments.

 

[fehu]

But yeah, I think these tablets and smartphones will kill handheld consoles. Kids that grew up with these probably prefer device without buttons anyway. Games like Zelda OOT and Mario 3D Land can be adapted to just touch screen control and it should still play well, might be even easier and more accessible even. Buttons are just hard compare to touchscreen.

This is blasphemy! :O
How can you emulate a ton of responsive buttons and analog?
I tried virtual onscreen analog and buttons even on a 7" nook, but can't play it, and the general complexity of the game was in the dumb supernes league to help with the controls handicap

I've seen a diablo clone for smartphone too, the gamepplay was simple:
- put your finger on the enemy
- move the hand to look at the enemy
- the enemy is still alive? put your finger on him
- the enemy died? put your finger on another enemy and repeat
Of course the enemy were almost static, because would be too difficult to defend your character from enemies covered by your own hand...
I'm not brave enough to call it a game

Everyone has at least one pc at home that can play games, hook a controller, surf the web ,and do a lot of useful things, still the home console market has never been so big and profitable.

And don't forget game exclusives too

 

[wco81]

Nintendo and Sony will still sell handhelds for a few years but the sales will be a fraction of tablets and smart phones.

Third-party support on dedicated handhelds is going to be shaky. Big publishers might put out games but they will be given short shrift.

In a year or two, the dedicated handhelds will only have physical controls to differentiate themselves. Google may offer a tablet with A15 cores and Rogue GPU at these price points. Would Sony or Nintendo ever offer that kind of performance on a handheld?

 

[Arwin]

Nintendo and Sony will still sell handhelds for a few years but the sales will be a fraction of tablets and smart phones.

The only relevant question is what their sales will be versus previous generations of Nintendo and Sony handhelds.

Third-party support on dedicated handhelds is going to be shaky. Big publishers might put out games but they will be given short shrift.

Again really the only question is how short shrift versus previous generations. We already know that apps on phones for a few dollars aren't necessary the most expansive experiences either.

In a year or two, the dedicated handhelds will only have physical controls to differentiate themselves. Google may offer a tablet with A15 cores and Rogue GPU at these price points. Would Sony or Nintendo ever offer that kind of performance on a handheld?

More important perhaps is that for the next four years, they won't have to. They can just use the baseline hardware to the max, get batteries that last longer, but keep the same hardware that at least for the next few years will still get cheaper, and the games keep working for five years.

I am still waiting for someone to explain me how tablets and phones vs handheld consoles isn't PC vs (home) consoles all over again.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Games like Zelda OOT and Mario 3D Land can be adapted to just touch screen control and it should still play well, might be even easier and more accessible even. Buttons are just hard compare to touchscreen.

Considering how utterly dependent on tight controls and controller feedback the Mario games are, I'd say there's actually no way to make a touch screen Mario game without fundamental changes to the gameplay. Half of the Mario experience is the joy of excellent, responsive and reliable controls.

 

[swaaye]

I'd like to see a handheld game machine in the form factor of a 7-9" tablet. I don't do tiny LCDs anymore.

For touch-only tablets though, over in the handheld forum we've chatted about this alot. They do work pretty well for strategy games that aren't too hectic, such as turn based stuff. Touchscreen maps rather well to mouse usage in those games. So if you like strategy games of that sort, a small-ish x86 tablet might make for some really awesome portable gaming opportunities.

 

[liolio]

If it's a bout to make tablet better at gaming, 2 side buttons and a proper stylet would go a looonnnngggggg way imo.