United European Army?

[MrsSkywalker]

Slavery has been abolished in Sweden for a thousand years.

And before it was abolished it was practiced. As it was in virtually every culture throughout history. We can't say that we've had slavery abolished for a thousand years, b/c we haven't been around that long. You can't take the moral high ground on this one...you have never owned a slave, and neither have any of us. We're all on the same moral plane on this one.

To get back on topic, I personally feel that a united European Army may be a good idea, as long as it is designed properly. IMO, every nation involved should have fair representation...it is definitely a concern that some countries would be well represented, while others go ignored. If there was a threat to Croatia, would it be taken as seriously as a threat to Germany? And what happens to the countries who DON'T want to join?

 

[CosmoKramer]

And before it was abolished it was practiced.

Yes. Did the kingdom of Sweden anno ~1000 have a written constitution delaring all men equal?

Give it up Skywalker.

 

[Gubbi]

The only reason the Soviet Union didn't fall was because of (primarily) British and American support. If England hadn't declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland, the Soviet Union would have fallen (Germany wouldn't have wasted alot of their air force in The Battle of Britain).

With the Soviet Union down, Germany would have secured resources to continue their campaign. It would also have allowed the Japanese to break out of Manchuria where the Soviets had stopped them prior to the outbreak of WW 2.

Alot of what ifs...

As for the U.S. pumping $$$ into Nato: True, but every single imaginary WW 3 scenario had Western Europe as the (nuclear) battle field, which probably suited the Soviets and the U.S. just fine.

Also: the U.K. spent as large a fracion of their GDP on defense as the U.S. did up until the fall of the Soviet Union.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[aras]

WW2 is a complex topic 8)

But any American and/or British claiming to have contributed the most to overall victory is forgetting that Germany had allocated in the area of 85% of its entire army and industry to the war in Russia.

Now imagine a western europe theater without operation Barbarossa.

 

[MrsSkywalker]

Yes. Did the kingdom of Sweden anno ~1000 have a written constitution delaring all men equal?

Oh, that's right. Your government didn't say all people were equal until 1974. Human rights stuff is in Chapter 2, and then the restrictions to these rights are laid out in the same chapter, articles 12,13,and 14.

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/sw00000_.html

(I got a real kick out of Chapter 4, Article 8...there are a few senators and congressmen over here that would LOVE a law like that!)

While on google I stumbled upon this article on civil rights in Sweden:

http://www.iraniancivilrights.com/sweden.htm

...this too...

http://www.centrumforrattvisa.se/cfr.asp?T=English

It's good your government seems to finally be addressing the issue.

You consistantly trash the US for having civil rights issues to deal with. As I have told you before, you have absolutely no idea what real cultural diversity is. You also have no real idea how difficult it is to get millions of people belonging to hundreds of races, religions, nationalities, and creeds to "be nice to eachother".

It only took us about 200 years into our nation's life to realize the stupidity of our ways. It took Sweden thousands of years. And BOTH nations still have issues. As I said, we are on the same level here. You are the one that needs to give it up.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Oh, that's right. Your government didn't say all people were equal until 1974. Human rights stuff is in Chapter 2, and then the restrictions to these rights are laid out in the same chapter, articles 12,13,and 14.

You were saying how many amendments to your constitution are there?

(I got a real kick out of Chapter 4, Article 8...there are a few senators and congressmen over here that would LOVE a law like that!)

Your congress is not equal in relevance to our parliament - you have a President with great powers. Here, the Parliament is the highest level of authority. Think about that and maybe you'll understand the motivation for Ch4Ar8.

http://www.iraniancivilrights.com/sweden.htm
http://www.centrumforrattvisa.se/cfr.asp?T=English

Your point?

You consistantly trash the US for having civil rights issues to deal with.

I do? I believe I mentioned something about it once in an old thread. Quit acting like a girl bringing up all sorts of irrelevant nonsense and take a look at the first page of this topic. Hint: It's about a European Army.

As I have told you before, you have absolutely no idea what real cultural diversity is.

I have told you before, we have relatively more first and second generation immigrants here than you. You are getting tiresome.

You also have no real idea how difficult it is to get millions of people belonging to hundreds of races, religions, nationalities, and creeds to "be nice to eachother".

Considering it's impossible to do worse than you in your segregated society I'd say you're way off base (as usual) here.

It only took us about 200 years into our nation's life to realize the stupidity of our ways.

Do you understand why most people believe that democratic societies based on the rule of law should be more responsible for their actions compared to despotic ones? That means most of us belive that a democracy should be able to treat its citizens more fairly than a dictatorship.

Americans are the ones who like to brag about how their form of government is superior to everyone else's, how you are more free (what a joke) than everybody else. Meaning that (given your history, current and otherwise) it leaves a sour taste in the mouth when a democratic republic such as the USA constantly, while acting like a bully, wants to be percieved as having the moral high ground.

I guess you have to learn how to deal with foreigners confronting these "truths". Or go watch Michael Moore...

It took Sweden thousands of years.

It took less than a century to abolish slavery however, despite being ruled by despots... Btw, Sweden is not that old.

And BOTH nations still have issues.

Sure. You are however the superpower. I wouldn't give a damn about you or your society if not your country was so intent on meddling in the affairs of other democratic countries.





But....to go back to the issue at hand.. The reason I brought up the liberation war, slavery etc. was that JR thought that I owed him something for a war 60 years gone. By bringing up those examples I was trying (too subtly I guess) to show that noone can be expected to let their actions be constrained by gratitide ad nauseum. Why the formation of a European army is a sign of ingratitude is beyond me however...


The USA and the European NATO countries helped each other during the Cold War. Hopefully we will continue to respectfully help each other in the future.

 

[John Reynolds]

The USA and the European NATO countries helped each other during the Cold War. Hopefully we will continue to respectfully help each other in the future.

Ahh, yes, but let's just hope that NATO is forgotten as soon as possible.

and I go to McDonald's as much as the next guy.

Oh, and your facade of not being anti-American almost had me fooled.

 

[John Reynolds]

I suspect your used to the post-war US propeganda that only the mighty US of A saved the world from Hitler and the Soviets. The truth is that the US played a huge portion in both but it didn't do it single handed.

Of course, because we Americans are all just uneducated.

I don't know how many times I've argued with other Americans that the Russians destroyed most of Germany's army and probably would've defeated Hitler without western aid, especially if the west aided with war materials.

There's a reason why after Pearl Harbor Churchill wrote, "All that now remains is the proper application of overwhelming force."

 

[CosmoKramer]

Ahh, yes, but let's just hope that NATO is forgotten as soon as possible.

Yes, because:

1) The US is actively tring to undermine any EU defense cooperation
2) The US is currently not being a respectful partner - they expect NATO to be their lapdog to help lowering the expenses for their colonial wars.

But...I'd personally love to see a new defense treaty between the US and the EU in the (likely distant) future. There are other powers rising that I think will make it necessary for us to keep the bonds.

Oh, and your facade of not being anti-American almost had me fooled

Oh, and your facad of not being anti-EU almost had me fooled

 

[John Reynolds]

You need to return to reality (were you ever here?). Without Britain maintaining a second front and thus tieing up german troops in the west Russia would likely have fallen.

Snickers. And you need to learn your history a wee-bit better.

Sigh, the mortal sin of Anti-Americanism. I have never been anti-American per-se but certainly anti-Bush, anti-fascist and anti-imperialist.

Oh, I'm sorry. Those nice little polls you like to start threads over American intelligence must've been really intended as a love letter for pax Americana. Seriously, had you been even remotely joking would've been one thing but anyone who follows your posts knows damn well you weren't.

Slavery has been abolished in Sweden for a thousand years.

Nice sophistry. Yes, but thanks to your European brothers we Americans had pre-existing slave markets through which to import/export the slaves. I also wonder if the Iraqis feel anything similar to what so many third world nations felt when experiencing predatory European colonialism in the 16th-19th centuries. Is that why a Muslim once asked me if I belonged to a European devil race?

We can keep this pissing match up all you want. In the future, though, you might want to choose your words a little more carefully because you're already backpedalling on NATO and while you claim to not be anti-American and instead anti the Bush administration, I'm not so sure I buy it. So many of your posts are not anti the current administration; they're just vitriolic attacks on anything even remotely American. Don't make me burn my ABBA CDs in retaliation.

 

[John Reynolds]

You consistantly trash the US for having civil rights issues to deal with.

I do? I believe I mentioned something about it once in an old thread. Quit acting like a girl bringing up all sorts of irrelevant nonsense and take a look at the first page of this topic. Hint: It's about a European Army.

Anyone willing to do a search on your posts will find quite a trove of anti-American commentary that is in no way related to the Bush administration. As above, perhaps you need to start choosing your words a bit more carefully.

Oh, and your facad of not being anti-EU almost had me fooled.

Oh, I trash the EU all the time. Please find one post I've made to support your claim. I'm serious. Words come easy and are obviously cheap to you, but in the meantime substantiate your claims that I'm anti-European. While you're doing that I'll dig out pictures from the two-week vacation across Europe my wife and I just took last fall.

 

[Humus]

While on google I stumbled upon this article on civil rights in Sweden:

http://www.iraniancivilrights.com/sweden.htm

...this too...

http://www.centrumforrattvisa.se/cfr.asp?T=English

It's good your government seems to finally be addressing the issue.

These are recent issues, issues not related to Swedish culture but imported culture which immigrants bring in that does not line up well with Swedish laws and mentality. When these imported cultures disrespect human rights the government needs to take action of course. It's common-place in some parts of the world to kills a daughter that stains the honour of the family by for instance going out with "non-approved" boys. With all possible respect for foreign traditions and culture, we just can't allow murders taking place within our borders, regardless of what's accepted among Kurds.
This is not an issue with Sweden, it's an issue these people have brought to Sweden and we have to deal with.

 

[CosmoKramer]

And you need to learn your history a wee-bit better.

Wow. What an argument. I believe you have been decisively put in your place by others meticulously explaining the role of Britain in WW2. Get over it.

Oh, I'm sorry. Those nice little polls you like to start threads over American intelligence

I have started polls about american intelligence? You just went beyond ridiculous - now you're just sad.

must've been really intended as a love letter for pax Americana.

Oh, make no mistake - I'm definitely anti that fascist and imperialistic nonsense. (http://newamericancentury.org). I believe the authors of that doctrine should be locked up.

Nice sophistry.

You are way off base here. Ok, it wasn't a thousand years (I have now looked it up) but slavery has been abolished in Sweden since 1335.

Yes, but thanks to your European brothers we Americans had pre-existing slave markets through which to import/export the slaves.

None of those countries were democratic republics with written constitutions declaring all men equal. Democracies shouldn't get involved with the devil (figuratively speaking).

I also wonder if the Iraqis feel anything similar to what so many third world nations felt when experiencing predatory European colonialism in the 16th-19th centuries.

I'm sure they did. However none of those countries were democracies with written constitutions declaring all men equal.

We can keep this pissing match up all you want. In the future, though, you might want to choose your words a little more carefully

What words? I stand by my every word. Or is that a threat? Fine, ban me.

because you're already backpedalling on NATO

Just exactly what goes on in your head? Explain where I am backpedalling on NATO. My point of view is consistent throughout this thread.

and while you claim to not be anti-American and instead anti the Bush administration, I'm not so sure I buy it.

First of all, stop acting like it's some kind of mortal sin to be anti-American. Quit that primitive monkey "you're either with us or against us" mentality.

Second of all, I have had no reason to be anything but anti-Bush until I started seeing how americans behave on the net and how high his approval ratings are. As I clearly stated before that makes me suspicious that not only Bush&Co have gone completely bonkers, but large parts of the american public as well. I am eternally anti-Bush and his bunch of merry fascists but my level of anti-americanism is subject to change. I saw a debate between Bob Dole and Bill Clinton on 60 minutes the other day. Clinton was a great president. Elect someone like him again (if they let you) and you'll see the level of cross-atlantic tension decrease drastically. While increasing your influence. Paradoxical, no

So many of your posts are not anti the current administration; they're just vitriolic attacks on anything even remotely American.

Must be entertaining to have such a vivid imagination.

Don't make me burn my ABBA CDs in retaliation.

Please do anyway.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Anyone willing to do a search on your posts will find quite a trove of anti-American commentary that is in no way related to the Bush administration. As above, perhaps you need to start choosing your words a bit more carefully.

Give me specifics and I'll happily defend any post I've made. I'm eternally against fascism, slavery, imperialism, stupid people in power positions etc regardless who the guilty party is. Even if it is the great USA - the champion and the rolemodel of the world.

Please find one post I've made to support your claim.

Well, I must admit that that statement was a mirror to you to make you see how stupid you look constantly bringing up "anti-americanism" (Oh, help us God) as an argument.

But...what about that blatantly racist remark about Nordic blood (hurry to edit!)?

While you're doing that I'll dig out pictures from the two-week vacation across Europe my wife and I just took last fall.

Cute. So according to that logic you support the politics of every country you visit. Remember that when you go to China.

 

[MrsSkywalker]

you have a President with great powers.

What "great powers?" He has power over the military...what else? He's not a king...he can't arbitrarily make new laws, or raise taxes, or do anything else "powerful." Are you aware of how our government over here works??? That every new law or tax has to be passed in the House of Representatives and then the Senate by representatives that we get to choose? We don't let our president run all willy-nilly doing whatever he wants.

And, no. I do not understand how a country does not expect it's leaders to follow the law. (Ch4Art8) If you don't expect your leaders to follow the law, then why should the citizens??

I am going to try one more time to get this idea in your head, and then if you don't get it, the deficiency lies with you, not the rest of the world. You talk about first and second generation imigrants. From where? Look up the stats and you will find that the majority of imigrants in your country are from OTHER EUROPEAN NATIONS. There are imigrants in this country right now from almost every nation in the world. You have imigrants from what, 20 countries? And they are almost all white and Christian. Your argument that you have as many different cultures living together in Sweden is a farce, and I bet every single person on this board EXCEPT YOU gets it. We are all wrong? World Almanac is wrong? YOUR NATIONS OWN STATISTICS ARE WRONG?? Oh, sorry...forgot you were the "all knowing, all powerful, CosmoKramer" Until you deal with it day to day, you cannot possibly understand.

And as far as you personally owing the US something, I was saying in my other post that the sins of the father cannot be placed on the child. Well, the reverse is mostly true, as well. You cannot be expected to pay back a debt that your father owes. However, WWII is still solid in the world's memory. Do I think that you shouldn't create a EU Army? No. I think it's a fine idea. But I reassert my reservations about the "lesser" European countries.

What kind of safety net does this proposal provide for them? And the countries that don't want to join up? I think the fear over here is that somehow the great Nazi power will rise again and take over Europe (or similar wacko group...not sure if you know this, but Nazis are still very feared over here). I think that is truly one of the great fears of a EU army. Maybe it's just too soon after WWII...I mean, yes it's been 60 years, but there are still a lot of people who remember it. As long as it's remembered, as long as the word "Nazi" strikes a chord of fear into Americans, I don't think the US will support an EU army.

 

[MrsSkywalker]

This is not an issue with Sweden, it's an issue these people have brought to Sweden and we have to deal with.

Exactly the point I was trying to make! Thank you! That's the crap that's been going on in the US, but on a larger scale, with a wider variety of cultures. I was trying to point out that it isn't the governments as much as the lack of influence of governments on citizens. It's an extremely difficult thing to try to ignore and at the same time embrace differences. I was trying to point out that no country is perfect, and no matter what's written in a constitution, no matter what law is, different cultures have different ways of living, different beliefs, old, inborn hatreds....and when you throw them all into somewhere and say, "There. Get along." it doesn't always work. Is that the fault of the government? No. That was the point I was trying to get through. It's not hypocritical of the government to say all men are free, then have citizens fighting amongst themselves. I meant no disrespect to Sweden, or the citizens. I was trying to illustrate that EVERYONE has some type of "civil rights" issues when it comes to imigrants. You can't say you are a free society if you hinder certain "acceptable" practices (let's use your example of killing the daughter who shames the family), b/c these practices have been going on for centuries, and it's their belief system...but you can't say you're a free society if you sit back and let an innocent girl get murdered. It's a sticky wicket, to say the least.

 

[DeanoC]

I suspect your used to the post-war US propeganda that only the mighty US of A saved the world from Hitler and the Soviets. The truth is that the US played a huge portion in both but it didn't do it single handed.

Of course, because we Americans are all just uneducated.

I don't know how many times I've argued with other Americans that the Russians destroyed most of Germany's army and probably would've defeated Hitler without western aid, especially if the west aided with war materials.

There's a reason why after Pearl Harbor Churchill wrote, "All that now remains is the proper application of overwhelming force."

I'm sorry my comment was out of order. My apologies.

 

[DemoCoder]

the USENET group soc.history.what-if has run hundreds of these WW2 scenarios over the years and have it down to a fine art. If you make the assumption that the US stays neutral in the war, that Hitler defeats/contains the UK and owns North Africa, and that Japan cleans up in Asia, then the Soviets lose.

No way those tank factories in the Urals get to keep running if the Soviets get no aid, and the Japanese navy are decimating their ports. (the Japanese ROCKED the Russians in the Russo-Japanese war, which was responsible for the rise of Japan as a world power) The germans could have held the soviets if there was no western front.

Fact is, the Allies had an untouchable foreign base (North America) which was guaranteeing them a constant supply of materials and food. Was any one factor "decisive"? No, WW2 was won because of hundreds of factors.

But having a country which can produce staggering amounts of food, ships, tanks, and other weapons, with impunity and relative immunity from attack was certainly a huge factor. Your infrastructure gets bombed every night, meanwhile, thousands of miles away, dozens of tanks roll off the assembly line everyday.

If you play RTSes, and someone is harassing your base, you know how easily you can be outplaced quickly in arms production.

The problem Hitler had was he had the German airforce wasting their time on the UK when he should have been hitting Soviet supply lines after securing a base through Chinese territory held by Japan. He was a moron of a general.

 

[Deepak]

WWII win was a collective effort of all allied nations not just a single country....if you take out a single nation then Hitler wins....imagine if Germany hadn't attacked USSR (they had a no-war pact!)...and if Japan hadn;t attacked Peral Harbour, US and USSR wouldnt have been drawn in the war and then today UK/France would have been German colonies...

 

[Evildeus]

Not sure it's the right topic but well...

Its not a silly regulation, its a fundemental human right. Certainly more of a right than carring firearms! But I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the importance of that kind of privacy.

Well, the right to protect yourself and your privacy is essential. I'm not sayint that you need to have a firearm, but in situation where no poiliceman goes in your district, then how do you protect your rights?

So what privacy are you talking about? Privacy to me is the right to do what I want without somebody, anybody interfering or looking in?

Going to nitpick, with/in your property. Important precision from my point of view, otherwise, anything can be legal, even breaking your rights.

If I understand what your saying, your government can't know too much due to privacy laws. The data protection act applies to the governments equally as to private companies. Even a election ballot paper has to ask you to agree to the storage and counting of the infomation

Agree

In Europe, only matters of national security can override the DPA. Nobody even the Prime minister (I'm British) or the like can invade my privacy without major legal problems.

Agree but don't forget that the british law is more like the american than the europeans ones.

Its why were not bothered by lots of CCTVs over here, it protected at the highest level from use against us. The protection is higher than the government of the country. EU citizens have a court even higher than the government (in US terms, we can over the presidents head!)

Well, don't understand your point here. It's the case in the USA also :/ perhaps even more (actually it should be but well, interpretations...). The prosecution of ministers/president in France is quite hard