Twilight Princess vs. Okami, who stole from who?

[Squeak]

So I'm playing through my EU copy of Okami right now and I'm really loving it. But the further I get into the game the more similarities between Twilight Princess and aforementioned comes up.
It's so blatant by now, that it's obvious to me that one of the dev. teams must have had an extended demo of either game and plain copied stuff from one to the other.
I'm thinking about the things like:

****SPOILERS****

- The wolf
- Thing riding on its back used as a weapon
- Fighting in magical arenas against a limited number of enemies
- Said enemies are slapping their buttocks to spite the main character in the exact same way the monkey in the forest temple in TP did it.
- "Twilight areas" that has to be abolished.
- People frozen in alternative world
- Sparkling black spots on the ground that can be dug out
- Placing a sun-sphere in the right place.

Both games had their main debut on E3 2005 (the TP teaser reel from 2004 didn't really show much gameplay) with almost all gameplay elements as they would be in the final version.
So my question is this, who stole from who?
Any educated guesses, any facts or pointers?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I havnt played okami yet so I dont know what its about but TP has been in development for something like 4+ years so I doubt Miyamoto ''stole'' some of the ideas in TP from Okami.

 

[Angelcurio]

*Spoilers ahead *

The similarities between the two games are far too much to be just a mere coincidence. I finished Okami about 4 months ago and now i am playing Zelda: TP, and the more i play it, the more similarities i can find on the game.

- Having a friend on your back (wolf form).
- Having a character talking in an unknown language (midna in zelda, issun in Okami).
- The running postman.
- Areas that need to be cleansed.
- Fighting a certain number of enemies on a closed enviroment.
- A button to "boost" your speed while in wolf form (both games feature this).
- Being able to for special things on the floor.

 

[Mordecaii]

Now that this is pointed out, I can't believe I didn't notice it earlier... I do have to wonder if someone stole ideas from the other game, because this is much more than mere coincidence.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I agree that is seems to much to be coincidence but on the other hand, being a wolf could be coincidence. having a helper isnt that strange either. More games have that. A unknow language isnt that strange either since both are fantasy games. Now the postman seems to be to much to be a coincidence but areas that need to be cleaned, need to defeat a number of enemies, a boost button etc arnt that strange imo. Those things you'll find in alot of games.

Now if someone stole something, than who would be the most likely? I doubt nitendo stole anything. Zelda has been in development for over 4 years so alot of the things mentioned would probably already been decided even before they started building the game and I dont think Okami has been in development even before zelda. And I doubt Miyamoto is the kind of person to go and find info on projects other studio's are working on and then stealing them for use in his own game.

 

[Squeak]

I just want to make it perfectly clear that this ain't a dig on Okami. It's an absolutely smashing game, that has a lot of it's own innovations.
But there are ideas in Okami, and so many of them, that bear such an uncanny resemblance to ideas in Twilight Princess that it can't just be a case of similar minds working in similar fashion.

Just when I though I had seen all duplicate ideas, about ten hours in the game I'm hearing about a fecking flying island FFS!

Thing is, these two games both had their major public unveiling at E3 2005 (the short trailer in 2004 didn't show any actual gameplay at all). So there has to have been some major industrial spying going on.

 

[Mmmkay]

Here's what Inaba thought on the matter, in march last year:

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200603/N06.0308.1629.19628.htm

GI: Can you describe the team’s reaction when Nintendo first announced that Link would be able to transform into a wolf in Twilight Princess and that it would feature predominantly into the gameplay?

Inaba: Yeah, actually I was at E3 myself and I saw that live with my own eyes. And to be honest, at first I thought, “Those sons of…. What are they doing?†Had we announced it very much prior to that then I would have felt really disappointed as if they were ripping us off, but I think that the timing shows that they may have had that idea before. I don’t think that they’re directly trying to rip us off or anything. As a creator, I’d prefer that they didn’t do that because it kind of takes away some of our thunder. But no hard feelings. I really like Zelda games so I’m cool with it.

 

[Nesh]

heheh talk about coincidence

 

[Rolf N]

Some of these elements are very common for the broader genre and/or have appeared in much earlier games. I'd suspect the inspiration for many of the less significant similarities comes rather from the Zelda series, because it has been around for so much longer.

E.g.
You could "boost" Epona in Ocarina Of Time.
There was a traveling postman, and mail-boxes, in The Wind Waker. It's a very useful concept because the player can get directions on where to go next no matter where in the world he/she was messing around. An in-game mail network can function as a more natural, more immersive "quest log".

Arguably every single dungeon room in Zelda 1 qualifies as a "closed battle arena", and so do world-map encounters in Zelda 2. The tradition has been alive and well right up to The Wind Waker, where many rooms would lock you in until you defeated all enemies.

Marking "hidden" items in some ways, be it with a glow, sparkles, slight color variations, cracks in a wall etc is a technique implemented in so many games, it's harder to name games that don't do it than listing those that do.

The thing with the floating island though is pretty remarkable IMO.

 

[StefanS]

Some of these elements are very common for the broader genre and/or have appeared in much earlier games. I'd suspect the inspiration for many of the less significant similarities comes rather from the Zelda series, because it has been around for so much longer.

Complete agreement. Okami wasn't created in a vacuum, so there's bound to be plenty of gameplay inspiration from the Zelda games and similar series. However, as for the similarities between Okami and TP, remember that the story-boards weren't written in a vacuum as well. Okami is inspired by Japanese mythology and Zelda probably took some inspirations from there as well. The wolf is regarded as a rather benign create. So it's a very fitting choice for a character. I don't think that somebody stole ideas.

 

[Squeak]

Some of these elements are very common for the broader genre and/or have appeared in much earlier games. I'd suspect the inspiration for many of the less significant similarities comes rather from the Zelda series, because it has been around for so much longer.

E.g.
You could "boost" Epona in Ocarina Of Time.
There was a traveling postman, and mail-boxes, in The Wind Waker. It's a very useful concept because the player can get directions on where to go next no matter where in the world he/she was messing around. An in-game mail network can function as a more natural, more immersive "quest log".

Arguably every single dungeon room in Zelda 1 qualifies as a "closed battle arena", and so do world-map encounters in Zelda 2. The tradition has been alive and well right up to The Wind Waker, where many rooms would lock you in until you defeated all enemies.

Marking "hidden" items in some ways, be it with a glow, sparkles, slight color variations, cracks in a wall etc is a technique implemented in so many games, it's harder to name games that don't do it than listing those that do.

The thing with the floating island though is pretty remarkable IMO.

No no no, those a things Angelcurio mentioned in his post (which mostly seemed to be a copy of mine with a few of his own points, which were not so well considered since they had been in previous Zelda games, sorry :/).
What I'm talking about is things that Clover (or Nintendo, if they were the thieves) could not possibly have known about, and have time to implement. Things that are unique for these two games.

zeckensack, I take it you haven't played both games, since you can say that it's just down to common heritage. Taken separately, maybe. But all put together in one game?! Impossible!
Just a few examples to clarify.
The digging spots on the ground look almost exactly alike. To such a degree that they could have been moved between either game without anyone taking notice.

The "closed battle arenas" are very similar also, with the swirling electrical colours and the three to four creatures that has to be killed before escape is granted.

The running postman is in Majoras Mask and a flying one in Wind Waker, but that wasn't one of my points.

The "slapping of buttocks" is also so similar that either animation could have been exchanged without anyone taking notice.

The thing with the floating island though is pretty remarkable IMO.

Well actually not. Floating islands has been in japanese and western myth and stories for a very long time (Miyazakis Laputa, and the original by Jonathan Swift, just to name two), but the fact that it should be in this game together with all the other conspicuous stuff just seals the deal. There is something fishy going on!

 

[slapnutz]

They both stole ideas from Ico and Shadow of the Colossus.

 

[Squeak]

They both stole ideas from Ico and Shadow of the Colossus.

Like what?
If anything both games a virtually polished subsets of elements from Zelda games.
I dare say no Zelda, no Ico.

 

[Little_Donkey]

Like what?
If anything both games a virtually polished subsets of elements from Zelda games.
I dare say no Zelda, no Ico.

I think you are wrong there,ex. the scene in wind waker where you have the girl with you its a total copy of ico but not that good as ico. now about okami, the whole story is build around the wolf so i dont think they copied from each other.
But i think they could skip the wolf part in zelda twilight princess. The only part i dont like to play, maybe because i just tried Okami

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

I actually liked the wolf parts because of the darkish atmosphere around those levels. Thats one of the things zelda could have done better, I should have had a more darkish atmosphere.

 

[SugarCoat]

Well actually not. Floating islands has been in japanese and western myth and stories for a very long time (Miyazakis Laputa, and the original by Jonathan Swift, just to name two), but the fact that it should be in this game together with all the other conspicuous stuff just seals the deal. There is something fishy going on!

Alot of that dungeon was pulled straight out of Level 7 (Eagle Tower) in Links Awakening. Having a floating landmass in a fantasy adventure game is hardly any reason to call something a copy in design. If anything you can blame it on the aging as well as the simplicity of the designers ideas on the genre.

 

[fearsomepirate]

- Having a character talking in an unknown language (midna in zelda, issun in Okami).

Hylian has never been a known language.

The running postman.

...was in Majora's Mask.

You don't need to stretch for similarities. Didn't the first Zelda trailer at least show a wolf?

 

[Mmmkay]

In an attempt to date some of Okami's game mechanics, here is an IGN [insider] article on the day it was revealed in Famitsu back in April 2004:
http://uk.insider.ign.com/articles/509/509836p1.html

It shows off the wolf form in screenshots and also describes the cleansing idea:

Okami takes place in a time when people still believed in the existence of God. The world has become a lifeless place, as shown in the game's use of pen-and-paper style visuals. Playing as Ama Terasu, a sun goddess who takes on the form of a wolf, your goal is to bring life back to the world.

Bringing life back to the world involves defeating lots of beasts. With each beast you defeat, the world's life force is restored just a bit, with colors and eventually people appearing. Famitsu reveals two of the game's main beasts, the Ama no Jyaku and the Nue. Ama no Jyaku has the ability to peep on what others are thinking and disturbs them by doing the opposite of what they want. Nue, meanwhile, gains strength with every sip of the alcohol that he carries with him.

Also, from July 2004 is the first promo video Clover put out for Okami, showing off over 2 minutes of footage including the cleansing animations and fighting beasts in enclosed arenas:
http://uk.media.ps2.ign.com/media/678/678618/vids_20.html