TVs and HD resolutions of Nextgen consoles

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Demo,
Do you agree with this?

There is a 10% difference in the picture quality when HD content is displayed on lower resolution (EDTV) versus high resolution (HDTV) plasma televisions- when viewing two plasmas by the same manufacturer.

Source:
http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/plasmatv-highdefinition.html

I have to say that influenced me a lot when I decided to purchase a Panasonic 854 x 480 Plasma. I like the unit a lot but have always wondered just how much detail I'm missing compared with 720p.

When I bought it last year, 720p units were about 1.5x more expensive than my unit. I didn't think it was worth the price difference.

It seemed to me (and still does) that going from analogue to EDTV is a reasonable step. And a few years from now, migrate to 1080p.

What do you think?

 

[DemoCoder]

No, it's complete BS. Never buy anything based on reviews. Go see demos for yourself to make a decision. How does one arrive at a figure of 10%? How did he measure that? It's bollocks. A 50% reduction in pixels, and he claims 10%?

If you want approximate the effect, go find a hi-res photo at 1280x720 and display it on a 1280x1024 monitor. Next, resize the image in photoshop to 854x480, put your monitor into 640x480 mode and look at the photo.

Or better yet, go buy an HDTV tuner card, put it in your PC and watch HD broadcasts at 1280x1024 and low res. Then return the card after you're done demoing it.

On a true 720p or 1080i display, when watching HD content, you'll see way more detail in people's faces. Every lit acne pit, dimple, and piece of sweat glistening. When downscaled, alot of that detail is lost. That's the "removing the veil" experience I had when I saw my first real 1080i broadcast. It was a simple talkshow, but everything looked way better than the best 480p DVDs I had.

One quick experiment u can do is to buy T2 Extreme condition and watch 1080p at 720p or 480p.

As for 480p looking better for DVDs because of upscaling needed on 720p, that's more nonsense. If you have a good scaler (like a DVDO iScan HD), it will actually look the same or better when upscaled. Sometimes it looks better because DVDO does a good job at removing artifacts and enhancing imagery, not to mention a slight anti-aliasing effect from the interpolation.

No amount of talking can convince one tho. You must look at two TVs side by side playing back a true HD program. IMHO, I can see way more detail in peoples faces, in rocks, on the floor, etc on a real HD display vs an SD one.

If HD content only looked 10% better on HD displays, we wouldn't need HD displays at all.

I am totally pro 1080p (see my comments about BluRay/HDDVD and how they *better* support 1080p)

 

[nelg]

On a true 720p or 1080i display, when watching HD content, you'll see way more detail in people's faces. Every lit acne pit, dimple, and piece of sweat glistening. When downscaled, alot of that detail is lost.

Reminds me of the saying "every princess was the fairest in the land before the advent of the camera". HD will do more to help professional makeup artists than anything else ever has.

 

[Nick Laslett]

DemoCoder,

You make a lot of good points and I don't disagree with you.

I have experience of viewing 720p output on a Sony plasma with their Blu-Ray recorder and it is very impressive.

But my point was that 720p seems like an interim step to 1080p.

I would rather go from 576p to 1080p. Not spend $3000 on a 720p device with a shelf life of 3 years.

See, I will wait until 2008 and then buy a 1080p display device, a Blu-Ray DVD player and a next-gen console. A 1080p device today is just too expensive.

But in the meantime my current SD display limits the attractiveness of all HD content. BTW, there is no real HD content in europe. The only use of a 720p device at the moment in Europe is for output from a computer.

BTW, are you sure LCD has really improved. The last time I looked it still had the problem with achieving good blacks?

I like DLP technology, the colour wheel issue doesn't effect me. I found that for PAL content the 576p DLP chip which matches 1:1 with the resolution of PAL DVD, produces a superior picture to the 720p projector. I spent a long time reaching this conclusion because I had no price restriction on what I went for. This was a year ago. I was really surprised to see that 1080p display devices had not yet become affordable. I was comparing a SIM2 Domino 20H against the SIM2 Domino 30H.

Anyway, I'm advocating 1080p which is clearly the best of all the resolutions. You can defend 720p all you like, all your arguments against 576p stand for why 1080p is the way to go. I can't wait until an affordable 1080p device arrives.

 

[mckmas8808]

See, I will wait until 2008 and then buy a 1080p display device, a Blu-Ray DVD player and a next-gen console. A 1080p device today is just too expensive.

Why buy seperate when blu-ray might be prebuilt in your PS3?
________
Grape ape marijuana strain

 

[DuckThor Evil]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

edit: 576p is either 720x576 if widescreen or 640x576 if 4:3, I have absolutely no idea where you got your numbers but they are definately wrong.

 

[Nick Laslett]

When I bought it last year, 720p units were about 1.5x more expensive than my unit. I didn't think it was worth the price difference.

It seemed to me (and still does) that going from analogue to EDTV is a reasonable step. And a few years from now, migrate to 1080p.

What do you think?

JF,

I am in the same place as you, I have a decent Panasonic plasma which handles 480p and I don't want upgrade until I can go to 1080p. 720p is just an interim step in my mind and not worth the upgrade if you have already invested a lot of money recently.

For those people with 480i sets, then going to 720p is great and I'd recommend it. I think a 7 year gap seems reasonable for upgrading display equipment.

 

[Nick Laslett]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

Tell that too my projector which has the 1024 x 576p resolution. Tell that to Texas Instruments who make the DLP chip.

Link to the projector spec:

http://www.sim2.co.uk/frameset_domino.htm

I'll see if I can get a link to the offical PAL 576p spec.[/url]

 

[DuckThor Evil]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

Tell that too my projector which has the 1024 x 576p resolution. Tell that to Texas Instruments who make the DLP chip.

Link to the projector spec:

http://www.sim2.co.uk/frameset_domino.htm

I'll see if I can get a link to the offical PAL 576p spec.[/url]

Your projector can show 1024X576 in progressive, but that has nothing to do with European 576p signal.

 

[Nick Laslett]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

Tell that too my projector which has the 1024 x 576p resolution. Tell that to Texas Instruments who make the DLP chip.

Link to the projector spec:

http://www.sim2.co.uk/frameset_domino.htm

I'll see if I can get a link to the offical PAL 576p spec.[/url]

Your projector can show 1024X576 in progressive, but that has nothing to do with European 576p signal.

Oh!

So, what is the point of this resolution if there is nothing that uses it?

I'm not questioning whether you were right. I'm just confused.

 

[notAFanB]

Oh!

So, what is the point of this resolution if there is nothing that uses it?

I'm not questioning whether you were right. I'm just confused.

there are alot of devices with funky resolutions up/downscaled or not.

our plasma is an funkified 1024x1024. dunno how that works

 

[DuckThor Evil]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

Tell that too my projector which has the 1024 x 576p resolution. Tell that to Texas Instruments who make the DLP chip.

Link to the projector spec:

http://www.sim2.co.uk/frameset_domino.htm

I'll see if I can get a link to the offical PAL 576p spec.[/url]

Your projector can show 1024X576 in progressive, but that has nothing to do with European 576p signal.

Oh!

So, what is the point of this resolution if there is nothing that uses it?

I'm not questioning whether you were right. I'm just confused.

Other than using powerstrip to output stuff from PC, I can't think of any.

 

[Nick Laslett]

[

720p resolution = 1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels
576p resolution = 1024 x 576 = 589,824 pixels
(not 720 x 576 as Dr Evil seems to think.)

720p is not twice the resolution of PAL 576p as Dr Evil and DemoCoder claim. But DemoCoder is correct that it has 25% more verticle resolution. These are both widescreen resolution. Why would you say PAL 576p was not?

That just isn't true. Widescreen 576p is 720x576!

Tell that too my projector which has the 1024 x 576p resolution. Tell that to Texas Instruments who make the DLP chip.

Link to the projector spec:

http://www.sim2.co.uk/frameset_domino.htm

I'll see if I can get a link to the offical PAL 576p spec.[/url]

Your projector can show 1024X576 in progressive, but that has nothing to do with European 576p signal.

Oh!

So, what is the point of this resolution if there is nothing that uses it?

I'm not questioning whether you were right. I'm just confused.

Other than using powerstrip to output stuff from PC, I can't think of any.

You are right, it is for PC output.

Looks like I was wrong. Well thanks for putting me straight.

I'll edit my earlier post.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

You are right, it is for PC output.

Looks like I was wrong. Well thanks for putting me straight.

I'll edit my earlier post.

you are very welcome

 

[DemoCoder]

I agree you should go right from 576p to 1080p. But I think 2008 is too far off. Like I said, 1080p sets are selling now, and in June, a bunch of DLP 1080p 10000:1 CR sets will hit the market. Samsung is selling a 1080p set for $3200. I bought my flagship Samsung 720p set last summer for almost $4k.

As for the limitations of LCD, they have mostly been eliminated. For LCD and DLP projection, the incorporation of a dynamic iris on the light source has boosted CR many times over. New DLP chips have mirrors than can bend more to leak less light plus techniques like "deep field imaging", and newer LCD triple panels can block more light because 3 panels each working on 1/3 of the light 3 times the light stopping power of a single panel trying to block a brighter source.

All this adds up to the fact that at CES, the LCDs and DLPs that I saw looked better than most Plasmas, except for really highend ($10k) PDPs. PDP is a deadend technology. Its too costly to manufacture, can't be scaled (pixel sizes still too big), and sucks up amazing amounts of power.


1080p and 10000:1 CR coming on a 56" screen in June for $3200.

 

[London Geezer]

10000:1 ??
Jesus...

Well i'm torn right now, i can get a 1080i HDTV now... or wait for prices to come down, and maybe 1080p but i'm in the UK so really what's the point of this post anyway...

 

[DemoCoder]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...ge=20&highlight=HLR5688W&pagenumber=1

Where to buy
http://www.radarcity.com/product?prod_id=8240&refer=6
http://www.wholesaleconnection.com/productDetails.aspx?product=7701&refer=1
etc

Remember 10000:1 CR means full on/off CR in dark lighting conditions. Your mileage may vary. The reason dynamic iris techniques work is because of the limitations of film: 7 fstops. In any given scene captured by a camera, the contrast ratio is at most 2^7 or 128:1. However, photographers vary the exposure and iris to capture a much wider array of the world. On the movie screen, negatives are printed to film which can show from 2500:1 to 10000:1 because a movie might switch from a very bright scene to a very dark scene.

The key insight is that no one scene will ever show much more than 128:1 CR. So, DLP and LCD projectors can take advantage of this, by putting an aperture on the light source which senses the contrast range of the scene, and narrows the CR range apropriate for that scene.

So if you show a very dark scene, it will dim the lightsource alot, and you end up with much better blacks. If it is a very bright scene, it opens the light wide open and you get very bright whites. The result is the full contrast range of 10000:1 can be achieved.

The devil is in the details, which is analyzing the frame about to be shown, an adjusting the iris accordingly, without reacting too slow, but also not overreacting, which would cause annoying flicker.

 

[function]

10000:1 ??
Jesus...

Well i'm torn right now, i can get a 1080i HDTV now... or wait for prices to come down, and maybe 1080p but i'm in the UK so really what's the point of this post anyway...

Alot of the LCD flat pannels in stores now can handle 1280 x 720 progressive. I'd be inclined to get one of those in time for the next gen (if I wasn't peasant poor atm). Seeing as 720p is looking likely (at this point anyway) to be the standard that wins out in Europe for braodcast tv I'd say you're unlikely to be wasting your money for the majority of uses.

Anyway, if you absolutely *must* have a 1080p telly, waiting a few years to get one and then shoving your current flat pannel in the spare room will still be cheaper than buying one now...

 

[DemoCoder]

What happened to HDTV in Europe, why is it so behind Japan/US/Canada/Australia/Korea/et al?


DirectTV in the US just launched its Spaceway satellite which will provide 500 Mpeg-4 local HD channels in 2005. In 2007 they are launching 2 more, which will provide 500 national HD channels, and an additional 1,000 local channels.

That will bring the total up to 2,000 channels of HD content, although in each local market, it will end up about 600 HD channels. In other words, by 2007, pretty much all of the continental US will have HD on every satellite channel.

I expect Cable to follow. For all intents and purposes, 2007 will make the US an HD-nation.

 

[London Geezer]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...ge=20&highlight=HLR5688W&pagenumber=1

Where to buy
http://www.radarcity.com/product?prod_id=8240&refer=6
http://www.wholesaleconnection.com/productDetails.aspx?product=7701&refer=1
etc

You just love flashing it in front of poor little mortal like us right...