transcoding discussion * spin-off

For a start, I hope all my songs on the PS3 will be automatically tagged in some distant firmware upgrade.

The CDDB functionality is already built into it. I would never want it to 'auto-select' for me when I put CD's in. Just going through the multiple choices now for multiple entries is sufficient. It takes an extra 3 seconds to confirm you are tagging it correctly, instead of Sony/PS3/CDDB deciding for me. It already automatically sorts items into folders it doesn't belong, I don't want to have to go back and re-tag anything on top of it.

On another note, this downright blows if they are going to make everyone one pay for licenses to use CDDB moving forward. Since a majority if not all the music software I use is linked to it, its a lil scary.

Good for Sony I guess, bad for me. I'll wait and see how this pans out though.

While we are here, they need to abandon the CBR support or at least add in VBR support for ripping. CBR to space hungry for the higher bitrate encodes and doesn't sound as good.
 
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I really don't get what all this discussion is about. Neither machine would qualify as a media center "in a vacuum" so to speak. Both are at most media extenders. I think people are being really loose with their definition of media center. In my case, here are the criteria I use and the way each machine ranks:

Archive Purposes:
One of the main reasons to have a "media center". HTPCs and other media centers are designed to rip, store, and replay various types of media. Of course there are three main types that most people use - still photos, videos (both home video and movies), and music.

Music: Both the XBox and PS3 provide ways to rip music to hard drives, so are both pretty equal in this aspect. Where and when you can play them (for instance, requiring that you be able to play them during game play) is more a function of a game console than a media server to me. However, the XBox does allow this so it gets a +1 in the "both media server and game console at the same time" category.

Video: Neither console provides meaningful ways to rip DVDs for archival purposes from the console itself. Both would not qualify as a media server in this regard. However, the PS3 can run Linux so can do some limited ripping. I would give it a +.5 in the media server category for this. It is not a perfect solution, but it is something. Depending on model, the PS3 can rip hope video straight from several popular camcorders. However, the solution is still not perfect. Give it another +.5.

Note that BOTH can use media that has been transfered to readable formats by a computer. So neither gets any bonus for that.

Still photos: Both consoles provide viewing tools, slide shows, and easy transfer for photos. Some models of the PS3 come with memory card readers so can read them straight from camera memory. Not all models do, so this cannot be used as a validating factor. It is worth noting here though that there are at least 3 features that are model dependant for the PS3 that would give it a serious leg up on the Xbox: SACD playback, memory card reader, and native HDMI 1.3. Only one version of the 360 supports HDMI natively.

The other aspect to the archival category is storage space. Here the PS3 has a clear advantage. The hard drives for the PS3 are not proprietary and can be easily upgraded. That allows for 500+ Gigs storage (though you need an external casing to get above 500 gigs right now). For use as a pure media server, large amounts of storage are a definite plus. However, not giving a point addition for this as it is something that is hard to measure.

So all in all in this category:
Xbox: +1 in the "game console and media server at the same time" category
PS3: +1 in the "can be configured as a pure media server" category

Media Playback:
This category is rather broad. One of the reasons people buy media servers is to limit the number of players in their racks. This has both advantages and drawbacks. Very rarely is a media center player equal in quality to a stand alone player. That means this category is mostly meant for media stored on the media center itself. However, we do need to count it. As such, the maximum IMHO a console can get in any subcategory here is a +.5

DVD playback:
The XBox is not a very good DVD player. It fails many of the tests from professional suites like the HQV suites. It does however play DVDs. It also does limited (although quite poorly done) upscaling. Keep in mind that this is NOT in reference to the HD HQV tests where there was a problem with the interlace tests that made many top of the line players fail. This is soley in regards to DVD playback.

The PS3 on the other hand is a decent if not "good" DVD player. In my opinion, it does not upscale as well as say the XA2, but it does a decent job. It is probably in line with the oppo and some of the older Denon receivers. The main problem I have with it right now is some odd color balance issues when upscaling. IE - It changes the settings I would need to use on my television to get proper hue and saturation levels set. However, +.5 for the PS3 here.

HD Media playback:
There are really two seperate categories people look at when looking at HD playback. Audio and Video. I'm condensing them here.

The XBox 360 with an HD DVD addon gives "par" performance for video playback. In other words, the picture comes out as you'd expect. It is similar to other players, even top of the line players. It is however more limited in the audio department. Here once again we run into the different model problems. Optical outs do not have the bandwidth to support lossless formats. I do not have an HDMI version of the XBox to see if it will output lossless formats. However, given that HD DVD is no longer a competing format and the limitations most 360s have in regards to audio, I do not think I would recommend it as a player. Especially when you can buy firesale HD DVD players like the XA2 for less than the cost of the 360 addon that are far far better players.

The PS3 is a solid Blu Ray player. It does not have EVERY feature possible (mainly missing bitstreaming audio, an IR remote, and analog outs), but its feature set make it arguably the best player on the market right now. There is really nothing more to say here. The PS3 would have a place in most home theaters as a Blu Ray player even if it had no other media options. +.5 for the PS3.

Media Streaming:
This means streaming media from one device (say a PC) to your home theater. There are reasons for doing this, even on a standalone HTPC. Unfortunately, this category is very need specific. I will try and be broad here.

Both boxes stream video. There is one notable difference:
The Xbox will extend Microsoft's "Windows Media Center". This gives it an automatic +.25 as most HTPCs probably end up running Windows Media center anyway. It also allows some other actions if you already own a PC with windows media center. Note that this is only half full score. That is because the PS3 can do most if not all of what the XBox can do - it just isn't as easy.

The PS3 can be set up to stream most types of files. I've even had success with .mkv files using the proper transcoder.

Digital Recording (ie - home made tivo):
Neither currently has viable solutions in my opinion (at least in the US). Play TV has a possibility, but it is not out right now. No points awarded for future promises.

VOD:
The Xbox currently has access to a pay as you watch VOD service with decent selection. +.5

The Playstation promises to have a service this summer. No points awarded for future promises.

Music:
I am not awarding points here. However, it is worth noting that the 60 gig model of the PS3 does support SACD. This is a good place to interject a disclaimer:

I have tried to be model unspecific. Before you argue that "XXX model of YYY can do this though!" keep in mind that if we take the best model of PS3 against the best model of XBox, the PS3 will have several media features that the XBox doesn't. However, not everyone has those features so it is pointless to use them as a basis for scoring.

End result:
Xbox: +.75
PS3: +1

Other Uses:
Don't think this is a cop out category. Rather, these are things that are selling points for HTPCs that do not have easy replication in the AV world. However, I would bet most people would consider these "peripheral" uses so will give at most .2 for a top score.

Internet Browsing:
Yes, there are reasons to do this on your television. Yes, it is a plus even if you own a computer. The XBox does not have its own browser. The PS3s browser is not perfect, but it is at least there. +.1 for the imperfect browser on the PS3.

Added Devices:
By this I mean mouse, keyboard, headset, remote, ext. Both devices have a slew of addon devices that you can use. However, the PS3 supports Blu Tooth with in my opinion is superior for this type of device. With both USB and Blu Tooth support, you can use your favorite keyboard or mouse with the PS3. I give it another +.1. Not a full score, but it is a slight step up. The reason it doesn't get a full .2 is because of lack of native IR support. An adapter is needed to integrate with high end remotes.

Operating Sound
All the XBox's I've heard sound something like a jet airliner taking off when the DVD spins up. That may just be a bad experience though, so I wont give points to the PS3 for being quieter. I did think it worth mentioning.

Gaming:
The only way you could award a winner in this category is with "fanboy" arguments. Both consoles have a good variety of decent games available.

End result:
+.2 PS3

Summary
So in summary, I would give the PS3 a 2.2 compared to a 1.75 for the XBox in advantages. Still, if you read through my reasoning you will see several reasons that they both make poor media centers. I would say the PS3 has the potential to be upgraded into at least a viable media center. I still wouldn't recommend it over a solid HTPC though.
 
The CDDB functionality is already built into it. I would never want it to 'auto-select' for me when I put CD's in. Just going through the multiple choices now for multiple entries is sufficient. It takes an extra 3 seconds to confirm you are tagging it correctly, instead of Sony/PS3/CDDB deciding for me. It already automatically sorts items into folders it doesn't belong, I don't want to have to go back and re-tag anything on top of it.

If you're talking about the ripping software, Don't the new ones auto-fill them today ? I did mine long ago, and a lot of them are not tagged properly, if at all. :(

On another note, this downright blows if they are going to make everyone one pay for licenses to use CDDB moving forward. Since a majority if not all the music software I use is linked to it, its a lil scary.

Good for Sony I guess, bad for me. I'll wait and see how this pans out though.

Did they say Sony will charge the consumers ?

Currently, it collects license fees from corporate users instead of the end users right ? Initially, Gracenote will probably benefit Sony in marketing (Knowing what songs are most popular in real-time, recommending related songs to other people, etc.).
 
Still photos: Both consoles provide viewing tools, slide shows, and easy transfer for photos. Some models of the PS3 come with memory card readers so can read them straight from camera memory. Not all models do, so this cannot be used as a validating factor.

Just a quick note, on the PS3 if the camera acts as a usb mass storage device (I think most do these days?) then you can plug the camera straight into a usb port and view or copy the photos. Don't know if the 360 supports the same thing.
 
If you're talking about the ripping software, Don't the new ones auto-fill them today ? I did mine long ago, and a lot of them are not tagged properly, if at all.

I was speaking more to PS3 ripping functionality as compared to other 3rd party software.

Did they say Sony will charge the consumers ?

Currently, it collects license fees from corporate users instead of the end users right ? Initially, Gracenote will probably benefit Sony in marketing (Knowing what songs are most popular in real-time, recommending related songs to other people, etc.).

I'm not sure of how Gracenote collected license fee's at this point. I'm also not sure of how Sony will change anything if they do going forward. My concern is strictly over if they do change things, and makes me shell out more $$. CDDB is a great feature, and has grown exponentially over the years and is a great tool. I'd be saddened to see it change to make it unusable to future use. Maybe we could get the folks over at discogs.com to jump into the battle and have their own non-web based DB.
 
I see. I doubt Sony is that stupid. There are money to be made on top without exploiting and angering the consumers. Today Gracenote recovers $$$ from the use of CDDB (from iTunes, Nero, etc.)


EDIT: I didn't know PS3 can rip CDs >_< Looks like I have to re-rip them to get the tags.
 
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Is photo and slideshow slow in PS3 ? I didn't realize it at all. One of my favorite things to do on PS3 is to leave my slide show running with background music while I work.

It's definitely usable on PS3, but it's much slower than the 360's implementation. The big problem with the PS3's implementation is how slow the thumbnails come up. When you go into a folder it takes a long time for it to create thumbnails. On 360 they come up instantly. I assume at some point though that Sony will implement a similar caching/preprocessing scheme to what Microsoft is currently doing.
 
It's definitely usable on PS3, but it's much slower than the 360's implementation. The big problem with the PS3's implementation is how slow the thumbnails come up. When you go into a folder it takes a long time for it to create thumbnails. On 360 they come up instantly. I assume at some point though that Sony will implement a similar caching/preprocessing scheme to what Microsoft is currently doing.

For me at least - "a long time" in your post would translate to less than 5 seconds to bring up thumbnails of over 100 pictures on the PS3.

That would definitely not qualify as any sort of a drawback for me. Maybe yours is behaving differently, but on my PS3 there is no delay between switching photos (I would say less than 250ms) and almost no delay at all for bringing up thumbnails (a few seconds for every photo in my folders and I tend to dump entire 2 gig flash cards straight from my camera on them frequently).
 
Okay, I know what you're refering to now. For remotely hosted photos, yes... it takes 1-2 seconds to display each thumbnail (Total about 12 per screen). They tend to stagger the loading, but overall performance depends on your NAS setup and network conditions.

I have a few other albums kept locally for historic reasons. Those are also thumbnailed on the fly but much faster. The thumbnails will appear in about 2 seconds total. Like the PS Stores, the system will continues to generate the thumbnails beyond the current screen.


It is possible they don't want to write/cache to the local disk when accessing remote user media (for security reasons). Time will tell.
 
Okay, I know what you're refering to now. For remotely hosted photos, yes... it takes 1-2 seconds to display each thumbnail (Total about 12 per screen). They tend to stagger the loading, but overall performance depends on your NAS setup and network conditions.

Yeah that's about what I'm seeing. Oddly though, both the 360 and PS3 are on the same gigabit network and accessing the same remote raid drive, which is why it strikes me as odd that the 360 would be so much faster. It seems to be more of a software issue than a network issue. I notice similar issues when playing videos. On the 360 I can use the right bumper button to hop forwards many minutes at a time with each press, and I can skip ahead in videos quickly with little delay. With the ps3 it seems like it has more stalls and stutters when dealing with videos. Again though, both machines are on the same network and accessing the same raid drive running the same Twonkymedia server.

It is possible they don't want to write/cache to the local disk when accessing remote user media (for security reasons). Time will tell.

I wish they would just offer it as an option, where you can dedicate a chunk of the hdd just to dlna related caching. Then it could cache the thumbnails once and be done with it. They really need to leverage their hdd advantage better on PS3, since its so easily user upgradeable.
 
Yeah that's about what I'm seeing. Oddly though, both the 360 and PS3 are on the same gigabit network and accessing the same remote raid drive, which is why it strikes me as odd that the 360 would be so much faster.

Your images may not have embedded thumbnails. That's why PS3 is generating one from scratch. If your images are large, then it may take a little more time to process the entire picture.

It seems to be more of a software issue than a network issue. I notice similar issues when playing videos.On the 360 I can use the right bumper button to hop forwards many minutes at a time with each press, and I can skip ahead in videos quickly with little delay. With the ps3 it seems like it has more stalls and stutters when dealing with videos. Again though, both machines are on the same network and accessing the same raid drive running the same Twonkymedia server.

What is the original video format in ?

I wish they would just offer it as an option, where you can dedicate a chunk of the hdd just to dlna related caching. Then it could cache the thumbnails once and be done with it. They really need to leverage their hdd advantage better on PS3, since its so easily user upgradeable.

The easiest fix is to have the server generate them (externally or embedded). The PS3 and 360 internal HDDs are limited. It's best to keep the thumbnails on the NAS anyway.

I have this issue with my music as well though, which is why I find it interesting you give the nod to the PS3, because in my setup when I scroll through my music list it needs to reload all info even if it was previously loaded, so mine does not appear to cache for more than what is visible on the xmb. Maybe this weekend I will try and copy enough music to the hdd to see how it differs.

What info do you want it to cache ? The music playlist plays fine, and the song listing in XMB also runs fine. Plus, the Earth visualizer is awesome.

My only complain here is they took away SACD playback over optical link. Give it back to me, Sony.

As I had mentioned previously I had no joy with trying to get the PS3 to play my wmv files. I had tried after every firmware update they did not play after 2.3 nor from being copied to the hdd...strangely, after updating MediaLink to 1.3.4 the wmv files will now play, sadly without audio....BUT almost there... :smile: the medialink update in no way explains why in the world the files would not play from the hdd but now they will...

As Scott_Arm pointed out, your WMV files may contain WMA Pro 5.1 sound, which is not be supported by PS3 yet. Stereo WMV should play fine. This is why I stick to standard format. :) ... so that I can play the same thing on my iPhone some day.
 
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I have this issue with my music as well though, which is why I find it interesting you give the nod to the PS3...

The problem I have with the way the 360 handles music is that it always insists on "building current playlist" before it lets you do anything. With my music collection this takes forever, so long in fact that I lose patience and cancel out. On the PS3 I can go to music, go right to the folder I want and bam, play the track. The other issue is that there is no "folder" option on the 360 for surfing music. It insists on going by albums, artists, playlists, songs and genres. What if my track tags aren't all 100% correct? Sometimes I just want to be able to surf via folder names, it's often faster and more direct. By the way, to give you an indication of how long the 360 takes to build a music playlist, I selected the "songs" option before typing this post. It's still "building current playlist". Ugh.

EDIT: Oh yeah, as patsu says, the Earth visualizer is awesome :)

patsu said:
What is the original video format in ?

I think it was avc, not 100% sure though.
 
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I only get copy and information on the PS3 until I drill all the way to the files, any way around that?

For local music files, you should be able to play at the group level (Group by Album, Genre, etc). Not sure about local folders.

For DLNA music files, you can only play at the leaf levels. I agree they should enhance this.

Otherwise, you'll have to create playlist. I don't know if the playlist format follows any standards. I think DLNA servers like Tversity supports playlists (You have to add them explicitly in setup/settings -- .m3u or .pls), and these will be listed in a separate playlists folder. But I have not explored there yet.

I didn't even know PS3 could rip CDs until yesterday. :oops:

If patsu would ever stop playing Resistance I may have to pick his brain for an hour or so :LOL:

Hey, I played the Echochrome demo, another round of GT5P, and also tried to get into MGO 3 times yesterday. Does the friends list show if I'm in slideshow mode ? (If I'm not in Resistance or Folding, I'm usually in Slideshow + Music playback mode).
 
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I didn't even know PS3 could rip CDs until yesterday. :oops:

That's one of the better features in PS3. Nowdays when I buy new cd I first pop it into ps3 and forget about the physical media. PS3 is easier for me than what the pc alternatives offer.

edit. I just wish there was easier way to manage data. i.e. copy from ps3 to dlna server and delete content from server. Then I could rip my originals and copy to pc more easily and also delete stuff I don't need anymore on the server.
 
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PS3 has a definite hardware advantage however the firmware still needs a lot of work. X360 fully supports windows media but had trouble supporting full HDDVD spec (1080p/24). Software can be fixed....
 
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