transcoding discussion * spin-off

[NavNucST3]

It's an expense that could make the 360 have a higher TCO than the PS3 (media/gaming purchases aside).



PS3 is a better media center than 360. Sorry, there's no debating this one. MS has an excellent online gaming service, but if they think they can shift as much media or build a bigger community than Sony can they're in for a surprise.

Considering I have already gone and re-converted my DVDs to be WMVs and NONE of them play on my PS3 yet all of them play on my 360, not to mention the MASSIVE number of TV shows that I purchase from Video Marketplace, the 360 still gets the nod from me as a better network entertainment device, especially considering I can listen to my music in-game and in-dash. I would imagine if my media collection was pirated I might consider the PS3 the better network entertainment device, but for me it only has silence and the phenomenal photo viewer as an advantage. Maybe when I finally get a 7.1 setup it will get the surround sound nod as well, but my A35 holds its own...

Also, I thought we were done with the "just wait until..." mantra months ago

 

[manux]

I would imagine if my media collection was pirated I might consider the PS3 the better network entertainment device, but for me it only has silence and the phenomenal photo viewer as an advantage. Maybe when I finally get a 7.1 setup it will get the surround sound nod as well, but my A35 holds its own...

Why choose a microsoft standard for conversion? Would have been better to convert to .mp4 which would have been non microsoft standard and playable on ps3?

I suppose people see the main media feature as movie/tv-series in divx format with subtitles. Subtitles are important for people that speak different language than english or more generally to those masses who watch stuff that has dialog in some foreign language. Would be pretty difficult for me to watch the japanese anime without subtitles or the french films, or... And dubbing just plain sucks.

 

[mrcorbo]

Why choose a microsoft standard for conversion? Would have been better to convert to .mp4 which would have been non microsoft standard and playable on ps3?

Because of the 360's ability to transcode multi-channel WMA as found in WMV files into Dolby Digital on the fly, it allows you to maintain 5.1 sound when connected via S/PDIF. For anyone who has a receiver that doesn't support HDMI or AAC decoding there is absolutely no way to get discreet surround sound output when playing files in MP4 format (the closest you could get would be to create a matrixed stereo track in DPLII format -- and this assumes your receiver supports that, otherwise you're stuck with standard Pro Logic) and the 360 won't play back multichannel AAC at all.

This wouldn't be a problem if the MPEG group included AC3 audio as a supported audio format in MP4, bit unfortunately they didn't. This is one of the main reasons that Matroska is so favored by the encoding community with MP4 being pretty much limited to portable applications where lack of surround sound isn't an issue.

 

[manux]

This wouldn't be a problem if the MPEG group included AC3 audio as a supported audio format in MP4, bit unfortunately they didn't. This is one of the main reasons that Matroska is so favored by the encoding community with MP4 being pretty much limited to portable applications where lack of surround sound isn't an issue.

But am I hallucinating because I do have some mkv->.mp4 and mkv to vob remuxed files that have the 5.1 audio track intact . 5.1 Audio works on remuxed files with both pc and ps3. Or is there some difference that I'm not understanding?

edit. I read again, so if I understand correctly it's mainly xbox360 .mp4 support issue. XBOX360 could very well decode AAC and pack it in ac3 and output via spdif. Naturally MS wouldn't do such a feature as they have their own format to favour

 

[manux]

I'm certainly not here to argue movie/tv show piracy; I took issue with the "fact" that a box that does not play all of my media, that does not allow me to listen to my music from wherever I am on the machine, that does not offer Movies nor Television shows is supposed to be seen as a superior media center in my eyes, outside of its 7.1 support and the photo slideshow.

Majorly off topic, but I still decided to post this here. Perhaps there is a better topic where these posts could be transferred to or maybe a new thread about what makes a closed box good media solution?

Goodness of tv-series/movie renting on XBOX360 depends where you live(i.e. in finland one cannot buy tv shows via xbox360). So that "tv series" point is not valid everywhere.

As for media, it just depends on the format, one can argue both ways depending to which formats one wants to encode his media to.

As for why I value ps3 is the features(internet media, blu-ray, mediaserver features, web browser(youtube)) it already has and the promise of the even better future(playtv, movie/tv series renting IF available outside NA). There actually is a web based tv recording service in finland which actually works with ps3, so I could replace my tv with ps3(12e a month).

Oh, and the one prequisite for a mediabox is that it's silent. I don't put noisy devices to my living room while watching a movie or listening music.

 

[mrcorbo]

But am I hallucinating because I do have some mkv->.mp4 and mkv to vob remuxed files that have the 5.1 audio track intact . 5.1 Audio works on remuxed files with both pc and ps3. Or is there some difference that I'm not understanding?

edit. I read again, so if I understand correctly it's mainly xbox360 .mp4 support issue. XBOX360 could very well decode AAC and pack it in ac3 and output via spdif. Naturally MS wouldn't do such a feature as they have their own format to favour

It's not a valid format for almost anyone using S/PDIF (there are apparently some receivers that can decode an AAC bitstream, but I've never seen one) as the PS3 doesn't re-encode to DD when outputting over S/PDIF. It just downmixes to stereo. The PS3, at least, can decode multichannel AAC, though. So it's support is still better than the 360. The .vob thing is a nasty, nasty hack and not suitable for serious backup purposes since the PS3 is the only device likely to be able to play those back as it is not spec compliant.

The moral of the story is both MS and Sony should be expected to fully support these formats if they are going to support them at all. It shouldn't be on the users to work around their deficiencies.

@NavNucST3 I know what you were getting at since manux specifically mentioned turning .mkv's into .mp4 and .vob which if you were doing your own backups wouldn't make a lot of sense since you would create the target format directly, so this is not directed at you. But to defend Matrsoka a bit, I wan't to point out that in my case it's a quality issue. I have a program called AutoMKV that automates the process of DVD->MKV all the way from the ripping stage on and the end result leaves the audio, whether Dolby Digital or DTS, untouched. Because I'm using an HTPC for playback, the format support is there so using that container provides me with the best results. And it scales upward to allow for archiving HDTV recordings and doing HD disk backups, as well. It's a better choice for me because of it's flexibility.

 

[mrcorbo]

The argument about which is a better media center is OT, but the issue really is the intitial blanket statement that the PS3 is a better media center than the 360. It all depends on how you intend to use it. It may be for YOU. But it clearly isn't for NavNucST3 and I find them both unsuitable for my needs.

 

[manux]

The argument about which is a better media center is OT, but the issue really is the intitial blanket statement that the PS3 is a better media center than the 360. It all depends on how you intend to use it.

This I agree 100%, it just depends on the use case and needs. I actually didn't want to support shaidarhans statement. I wanted to make a case that ps3 could also be relevant as mediacenter as opposed to the message drawn in NavNucST3 post.

 

[patsu]

Because of the 360's ability to transcode multi-channel WMA as found in WMV files into Dolby Digital on the fly, it allows you to maintain 5.1 sound when connected via S/PDIF. For anyone who has a receiver that doesn't support HDMI or AAC decoding there is absolutely no way to get discreet surround sound output when playing files in MP4 format (the closest you could get would be to create a matrixed stereo track in DPLII format -- and this assumes your receiver supports that, otherwise you're stuck with standard Pro Logic) and the 360 won't play back multichannel AAC at all.

This wouldn't be a problem if the MPEG group included AC3 audio as a supported audio format in MP4, bit unfortunately they didn't. This is one of the main reasons that Matroska is so favored by the encoding community with MP4 being pretty much limited to portable applications where lack of surround sound isn't an issue.

Don't want to derail the thread. Just a quick clarification.

mrcorbo, I think the format you're looking for is AVCHD (which is supported by many [all?] software players, PS3 and HDV + miniDV camcorders). It plays H.264 video and AC3 5.1 audio (or 7.1 LPCM). It is essentially the Blu-ray format structure, so should be playable by most if not all Blu-ray players too. It should also be (relatively) easy to remux AVCHD to WMV with AC3 and video quality intact for Xbox 360... if you need a cross platform way to do things today. mkv is not supported by 360 or PS3 to my knowledge. You'll have to remux or transcode for both platforms and it's not supported by the camcorders too.

In any case, I agree with the assessment that it depends on how you want to build out your home media infrastructure. Both PS3 and 360 have exciting future in this area. My personal preference is to do away with a media PC where possible.

 

[mrcorbo]

Don't want to derail the thread.

I think it's too late for that.

Just a quick clarification.

mrcorbo, I think the format you're looking for is AVCHD (which is supported by many [all?] software players, PS3 and HDV + miniDV camcorders). It should play H.264 video and AC3 5.1 audio (or 7.1 LPCM). It is essentially the Blu-ray format structure.

That last bit is a problem for me specifically. I prefer to not have to replicate the file/folder structure of a disc-based format if I don't have to. Plus the tools available to create MKV files offer some more flexibility and functionality than what is available for AVCHD authoring. And they're free.

It should also be (relatively) easy to remux AVCHD to WMV (with AC3) for Xbox 360... if you need a cross platform way to do things today.

If you could put AC3 into the WMV container (actually you technically can, but playback support isn't there, so it is effectively useless) I would be using that instead. 360 playback isn't a concern for me.

mkv is not supported by 360 or PS3 to my knowledge. You'll have to remux/transcode for both platforms and it's not supported by the camcorders too.

Camcorders?

 

[patsu]

That last bit is a problem for me specifically. I prefer to not have to replicate the file/folder structure of a disc-based format if I don't have to. Plus the tools available to create MKV files offer some more flexibility and functionality than what is available for AVCHD authoring. And they're free.

AVCHD is just one file. What file/folder structure are you refering to ? Like other media format, each file has embedded structures.

AVCHD is one of the export formats for existing free tools (e.g., ffmpeg, Avidemux, MEncoder, ...) or paid ones.

Camcorders?

Many camcorders record to AVCHD (.mts) format so no conversion is needed for direct playback. Just plug/copy and play.

mkv is a good choice too but AVCHD has its advantages.



EDIT:

If you could put AC3 into the WMV container (actually you technically can, but playback support isn't there, so it is effectively useless) I would be using that instead. 360 playback isn't a concern for me.

Ok, I didn't realize WMV only supports WMA Pro 5.1 and not AC3. That means one has to go the AVI route (AVI with embedded AC3) for Xbox 360 then. It should play them fine right ?

 

[Scott_Arm]

My experiences with the PS3 and Xbox360 were both fairly poor. I have a lot of random video files and was using tversity with my bros PS3 and a lot of them wouldn't play, even though they were divx/xvid files. I'm not sure if it was an audio codec thing. Maybe I didn't have tversity setup right. Tried tversity and media player with my 360 and had mostly the same problem. Just a lot of files that wouldn't play. The biggest issue to me is that the PS3 and 360 don't give you detailed information as to what the problem is. It's been a while so I don't remember what the exact messages were, but I didn't find them helpful. So, neither is a really desirable solution to me, as there are obviously sound/video formats they don't support. My downloads come in formats of all formats. That said, it's not an issue for me because I tend to rent all of the movies/tv shows I want to watch. There's a local independant video store that I like to support because of the fantastic ownership.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Strangely, I have no interest in Apple TV precisely because I own a 360 and PS3 and for me that device pales in comparison to both of the consoles.

AppleTV is cool if you hack the shit out of. My friend has one. But the 360 and PS3 have better out of the box support, which is preferable if you already own one or have interest in getting one. To me, buying something that only works well if you hack it is not worth spending money on. If Apple would just constantly update the codecs for the AppleTV to support more formats, which they could easily do, it would be a fantastic device.

 

[patsu]

My experiences with the PS3 and Xbox360 were both fairly poor. I have a lot of random video files and was using tversity with my bros PS3 and a lot of them wouldn't play, even though they were divx/xvid files. I'm not sure if it was an audio codec thing. Maybe I didn't have tversity setup right. Tried tversity and media player with my 360 and had mostly the same problem. Just a lot of files that wouldn't play. The biggest issue to me is that the PS3 and 360 don't give you detailed information as to what the problem is. It's been a while so I don't remember what the exact messages were, but I didn't find them helpful. So, neither is a really desirable solution to me, as there are obviously sound/video formats they don't support. My downloads come in formats of all formats. That said, it's not an issue for me because I tend to rent all of the movies/tv shows I want to watch. There's a local independant video store that I like to support because of the fantastic ownership.

You might want to try again in the future.

It is true that DLNA + Media playback for PS3 was hit and miss. It has come a long way though. I am quite happy with DLNA and MP4 playback these days. Earlier on, I found out through the net that it had the following problems:
* Can't play AC3
* Can't play > 2Gb AVI
* Stuttering due to excessive B-frames
* Stuttering audio with 48kHz audio
* Out of sync audio with certain files (May be an encoding issue when the encoder changed the framerate)

Most (all ?) of these problems have been fixed. However I still see occassional posts about broken MP4 streaming even in firmware 2.30. In particular, PS3 does not seem to like MP4 Profiles higher than 4.1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels). If you label a video file as Profile 5.1, PS3 will choke. But if you relabel it as Profile 4.1, it should play the file correctly. I am not sure if this nuance has been fixed.

Then there are idiosyncracies in the container formats themselves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_container_formats)

And then, there may be implementation issues with the DLNA servers. These can be verified by playing the file locally. We have a DLNA thread here if you are interested in our experiments. I think the DLNA servers can be improved further. For now, I prefer TwonkyMedia.

Finally, some encoding software, even commercial ones, may generate dubious (almost non-conforming) media files. These may range from string values that forgot to null terminate themselves, to duplicated entries. These files will affect other players too, but some seasoned players may have already worked around these bugs.

Overall, I prefer to standardize on one or two formats, and avoid transcoding. I am experimenting with MP4 (.mp4, .mpg) and AVCHD (.m2ts, .mts, .mpg). Am staying away from WMV, DivX and AVI so far. Basically, I want H.264, AAC and AC3, but I don't want containers with too many variants (like DivX vs Xvid advanced features) or proprietary extensions. It's too painful to track. I am still very early in my exploration though. So any feedback is welcomed.

Again, thanks and no thanks to Sony for giving us great software, but half-way support with no clear position. At least give me a whitepaper so that I know what to expect and can tailor my shopping list appropriately. On a related note, I look forward to Blu-ray Managed Copy and Portable Copy in a future PS3 firmware revision.


EDIT: If you settle on .mkv, here's a link to convert .mkv files to .m2ts for archiving to discs: http://www.bitburners.com/articles/...r-avchd-for-playstation-3-using-tsmuxer/4019/ It is possible to store a 720p movie in a DVD-R according to the net. PS3 should play these discs without problem.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Thanks, Patsu. It was a little over a month ago when we tried it out on my bros PS3. I'll have to give it another go with TwonkyMedia. I thought Tversity was pretty ugly and I didn't have good results.

 

[patsu]

I forgot to mention that TwonkyMedia is not free.

I agree that Tversity 0.9.x client UI s*cks. They are preparing a 1.0 release (Check http://tversity.blogspot.com/ for their development blog and some screenshots on the 1.0 stuff).

If you have a Linux box, you can try MediaTomb too (but I have no personal experience with it yet).

 

[patsu]

Cool, I'll try Orb when I get into the office next week. On Windows, TVersity 0.9.x works ok for the most part but can be quirky for basic operations. It also has not shown much improvement for the past few months.


TwonkyMedia is the best for embedded devices like my TeraStation Live. That way I don't have to keep a PC on all the time. I only need a PC for transcoding or remuxing from time to time.

According to Orb's press release: http://www.orb.com/en/orb_opens_architecture_licenses_technology_to_ce_manufacturers

Buffalo (manufacturer of TeraStation) has ported Orb to its NAS platform. Keeping my fingers crossed that I will get it in a new firmware upgrade in the future.


On Linux, MediaTomb seems to be most active but don't quote me on that.


For remote access, RemotePlay or TwonkyMedia's web interface should work (The second method requires some port forwarding and dynamic DNS set up).

In any (or all the above) cases, we still need to be careful about media file format support. I believe MP4 + AVCHD gives the most "lean" and cross platform support so far (without much tweaking). mkv is probably the most flexible.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think I'll give Orb a shot.

 

[Silent]

If you have a Linux box, you can try MediaTomb too (but I have no personal experience with it yet).

Works great with the PS3, but not with the 360. Thats the reason why I switched to Twonky.

In the past I had some troubles with divx/xvid movies that didn't want to play, but since the 2.20 firmware they play without any problems. It seems to play all my xvid/divx movies.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

Considering I have already gone and re-converted my DVDs to be WMVs and NONE of them play on my PS3 yet all of them play on my 360, not to mention the MASSIVE number of TV shows that I purchase from Video Marketplace, the 360 still gets the nod from me as a better network entertainment device, especially considering I can listen to my music in-game and in-dash. I would imagine if my media collection was pirated I might consider the PS3 the better network entertainment device, but for me it only has silence and the phenomenal photo viewer as an advantage. Maybe when I finally get a 7.1 setup it will get the surround sound nod as well, but my A35 holds its own...

Also, I thought we were done with the "just wait until..." mantra months ago

PS3 > XB360 as a media center
/end discussion