The way I see it, R350 & NV35 are the ones to get

I believe that ATI's R350 and Nvidia's NV35 are going to be the GPUs to jump on board the DX9 generation -They are going to be the "sweet spot" if you will. Both will have worked out most or all of the problems that come with all first iterations of new technology. As well as the shortcommings. Nvidia will most likely have a 256-bit bus in NV35, and ATI will probably have two texture units per pipeline in R350 - driver issues will likely be much less of a problem with NV35 and R350 (yes, i predict Nvidia will have driver "issues" with Nv30)

The NV30 and R300 are completely new architechures. No games that use DX9 will even be out until NV35 comes out anyway. Most games that REQUIRE DX9 probably won't be out until the NEXT generation (R400 and NV40) are out in late 2003/early 2004. Besides, it almost always makes sense to buy into the REFRESHES of any given GPU - that was true with the TNT2 over the TNT - The GeForce2 GTS over the GeForce1 and the GeForce4 over the GeForce3/Ti500. ATI has had less refreshes than Nvidia because ATI has, until now, typically gone from one architechure to another, roughly every year - R100/Radeon64 in mid 2000 > R200/Radeon8500 fall 2001 > R300/Radeon9700 Aug/Sept 2002 - Most of ATI's recent refreshes have been to boost the low-to-mid end with R100 remade into R7xxx - and R200 remade into DX8 capable R9000 - Now with R300, ATI will have DX9 capable Radeon9700 Pro, Radeon9500, and in 3-5 months R350. (did I miss one... Radeon9700 regular maybe?)

Of course, some of this is speculation, but reasonable speculation I would think. Regardless, I will jump onto the R3xx and NV3x series with the refreshes, since there have typically been so many advantages in doing so in the past. I'm not saying that one should wait, endlessly, for new technology, because if you do that, you'll never upgrade, there is ALWAYS something newer, better on the horizon. I would just say that if you're going to get a new highend video card, get the refresh version which is typically cheaper, more stable, has less problems, with greater performance, and overall is a much better product than the initial version.
 
I think it always goes without saying that you'll get better performance if you never get the part that's available now but always wait 6 months from now.

I'm more interested in the improved IQ and speed these first DX9 cards offer for DX8 games (UT2K3, MorrowWind, etc...)

The problem is, 6 months a long time...

--|BRiT|
 
Obviously the second gen is the sweet spot in terms of features, stability, and speed. The R300 still looks mightily impressive if you want a new card now, though.
 
martrox said:
and, six months after that.......... :rolleyes:
This way, we can always wait for the next best thing!
think of the money will will save!

The only problem is, that s3 virge is getting kinda slow!
But nv35 will be out in 8 months, and i dont want to waste my money :)
 
As Ive said, its not about waiting endlessly, its about getting the refresh. - GeForce4 Ti is good enough to hold me over until next year when DOOM III
is out. then I can choose between the best R3xx and NV3x GPUs - either the R350 in the spring or NV35 in the summer or fall. If you have anything less than a GeForce4 Ti now, get a 4200 or 4400 - it'll be good enough to play any game that comes out between now and DOOM III - even DOOM III will run on GF3 and GF4 TI.

IMHO, its a waste to get the very first release of a new graphics processor -the refreshes are always better and almost always cheaper.
 
Megadrive1988 said:
As Ive said, its not about waiting endlessly, its about getting the refresh. - GeForce4 Ti is good enough to hold me over...

But the GF4 Ti is not a refresh. The GF3 Ti was a refresh of the GF3, and the GF4 Ti 8X is a refresh of the GF4. For some time now, NVIDIA has just been releasing speed bumped or minor changes for a fall refresh (their cycles got mixed up about three years ago... now it's spring new product, fall refresh).

... then I can choose between the best R3xx and NV3x GPUs - either the R350 in the spring or NV35 in the summer or fall.

It's not very likely IMO that the NV35 will be a fall part (much less summer... that's ludicrous). From the past 6 releases from NVIDIA we can predict that the fall part will just be a speed bumped NV30... perhaps if they are forced to use DDR-I now they will make the switch then, or perhaps they'll just bump up core and mem clocks (faster DDR-II if they're using it for NV30). NV's new product releases seems to be hitting on right about an 11 month spacing, so the NV35 might make it in time for next Christmas. All IMO, of course.
 
Megadrive1988 said:
IMHO, its a waste to get the very first release of a new graphics processor -the refreshes are always better and almost always cheaper.

Yes but I can't wait another 6 months. I'm still running a Geforce 2MX :oops:
 
Ok, so by this reasoning you'd advocate someone buying a R9000 over a R8500? After all the 9000 is the "refresh" of the 8500...

I don't think you really say anything is set in stone, and the idea of buying refreshes is pretty confusing. For one thing, up to now the only refreshes ATi has produced have been mainstream/value parts after a year when their performance is by no means cutting edge. Personally I considered the R7500 and R9000 to be pretty bad buys, since a newer and much faster card had just been released that eclipsed them.

Even looking at Nvidia...what is a "refresh"? Just the GF3 Ti500, because really the GF4s were just refreshes of the GF3 (and notice how they had few new driver bugs upon release).

I'd say the trick isn't to buy a refresh or anything else...it's just to buy whatever gives you the most bang for your buck at whatever point you need to upgrade (new game comes out, old card kicks the bucket, whatever).

There are certain times when you should not upgrade unless it's an emergency. For example, when one graphics company is dominating. You pay a premium price for a product that will still be eclipsed fairly soon. Those who bought the GF2 Ultra, original GF3 and GF4 Ti4600 basically got ripped off, and frankly so did the people who bought the R9700.

Right now it kind of seems like there is no real good card to buy...9700 is too damn expensive and the Ti4600 is outdated. With both the R9500 and NV30 on the horizon (which should provide competition for ATi's cards) waiting would probably be in order.
 
Nagorak said:
For one thing, up to now the only refreshes ATi has produced have been mainstream/value parts after a year when their performance is by no means cutting edge.

Just a minor point, but the Radeon256 had a "refresh" in the form of the RadeonSE with higher clock speeds (even if it wasn't an "official launch") and the 8500 in the form of the 128 MB BGA version. Either of those two is, IMO, as much of a refresh as either the GF3 Ti or GF4 w/ 8X.
 
But the GF4 Ti is not a refresh. The GF3 Ti was a refresh of the GF3, and the GF4 Ti 8X is a refresh of the GF4. For some time now, NVIDIA has just been releasing speed bumped or minor changes for a fall refresh (their cycles got mixed up about three years ago... now it's spring new product, fall refresh).


I suppose it depends on how you define refresh. If all it takes is speed binning chips, a faster clocked version, then GeForce3 Ti 500 would count. Though as far as I am concerned, the GeForce 3 Ti 500 was NOT a refresh of GeForce3 - it contains no new features or circuitry - the Ti 500 chip is basicly the same as the regular GF3 - it just happens that GF3 Ti500 came 6 months after the original (with a speed bump) so some people concider it a refresh.

I concider the GeForce 4 Ti as the actual refresh of GF3 - its going from NV20>NV25 much like NV10>NV15 (GF1>GF2GTS) or TNT>TNT2.. A refresh should contain significant new features to the GPU core as well as a speed bump, and perhaps new memory types used at the video card level, without going to an entirely new architecture as from TNT to GeForce1, GeForce1 to GeForce3 or Geforce3 to the forthcoming NV30/CineFx architechure.
 
If that's your definition of refresh, then you have to accept that NVIDIA for the past couple of years has been on a 2 year new core release schedule, with a 12 month refresh. Hardly the 6 month product cycle people keep talking about. You can't have it both ways... either they have a 12 month product cycle (and have for a couple of years) or the refreshes are practically identical cores.
 
If that's your definition of refresh, then you have to accept that NVIDIA for the past couple of years has been on a 2 year new core release schedule, with a 12 month refresh.

Absolutely true. Nvidia has slowed down significantly, the introduction of new cores, and even refreshes, from the faster paced years of Riva 128 to TNT to GeForce.

Hardly the 6 month product cycle people keep talking about. You can't have it both ways... either they have a 12 month product cycle (and have for a couple of years) or the refreshes are practically identical cores.

I agree. Nvidia has had a 12 month product cycle the last few years, with speed bumped identical cores after 6 months, instead of the 6 month refresh and every 12 months a new core, in 1997-2000. Nv slowed down starting with the GeForce2 Ultra, Nvidia delaying the NV20/GF3 from fall 2000 to March 2001.
 
I should also say, that this should push NV40 into 2004 :) with NV50 possibly being the basis for the XBox2 chip in 2005 or 2006. ... providing XBox2 is powered by an Nvidia chip that is :)
 
Perhaps though, with the dramatically increased competition from ATI (and to a lesser extent, Matrox and 3DLabs/Creative) Nvidia will be pushed back into a 6 month product cycle. Its not beyond the realm of possibility that NV35 could show up in spring 2003.

But as of now, Nvidia is giving us a new core every 18-months to 2 years
 
I'd love to see the NV35 in the Spring/Summer timeframe, but based on their previous releases I think it will be a next Christmas part. They've been pretty much nailing an 11-month new core release for a while now. With NV30 looking like January, NV35 might make December.
 
At the pace Nvidia has been going, yeah, it looks like NV30 in January and NV35 late next year, but I'd like to see them accelerate that schedual.
we'll soon see how much pressure Nvidia is feeling.
 
megadrive0088 said:
I should also say, that this should push NV40 into 2004 :) with NV50 possibly being the basis for the XBox2 chip in 2005 or 2006. ... providing XBox2 is powered by an Nvidia chip that is :)

I doubt it will be. After the bad experience they had with MS, they won't even want to be the chip in the second XBox, even if MS wanted them to make it.
 
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