The relative signifigances of "Tilt" and Bluray.

[ban25]

Eggebrecht: The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data.

Let me first say, I think the storage capacity of Blu-Ray is a huge plus for developers. However, just because one level is comprised of 4 GB of data between the textures, environment, actors/models, etc. (which clearly implies lots of streaming on a machine with 512 MB of ram), this does not mean it is 4 GB of unique data.

The biggest obstacle to lots of unique content is all the manpower it takes to create it.

 

[aldo]

From Ted Price's Blog on IGN:

The 20Gb debate

The second topic that has been surfacing a lot lately is our support of Blu-ray as a medium. Yes it is true - we are currently using more than 20 gigs. And yes, we do compress our level data. The fact that we store so much on disc is actually not that surprising when you look at the numbers. Consider that even with compression, each of our “levelsâ€￾ (or loaded areas) has more than 300 megs of unique data. And keep in mind that we’re also streaming data during level playthroughs. It doesn't take too much level data before you've gone past what can be stored on a dual-layer DVD. And between single player and multiplayer we have a lot of level data (over 40 different large loaded areas) – yes, more than will fit on a dual layer DVD.

I realize that some people will still be skeptical unless we provide an actual layout of the disc. But for now I wanted to give you some better info.

I know it makes me giggle, but it's a nervous giggle that occurs when I am excited by anticipation.

-aldo

 

[Chandler]

It's very simple, it works basically like an optical mouse.
The wiimote has a IR camera that sees the sensorbars two light spots (the sensorbar doesn't have any sensors, it just some IR diodes in a rectangle.).
By looking at how the spots shift in the x,y coordinates and how they approach and go away from each other (z), it can determine how it's being moved (It can probably also detect accurate tilt by looking at the two spots).

From what understand the only use of the sensor bar is for pointing at things on screen (like the browser). Otherwise how would it track the remote when you swing a bat for instance.

With that in mind, the SIXAXIS is basically the same as the wii controller, minus the ability to grip it in one hand.

 

[-=P3tRaN=-]

Eggebrecht: The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data.

Let me first say, I think the storage capacity of Blu-Ray is a huge plus for developers. However, just because one level is comprised of 4 GB of data between the textures, environment, actors/models, etc. (which clearly implies lots of streaming on a machine with 512 MB of ram), this does not mean it is 4 GB of unique data.

The biggest obstacle to lots of unique content is all the manpower it takes to create it.

very correct ban25.

also I would like to quote mr eggebrecht on a very recent interview (september 21st):

IGN: QUICK FANB0Y WARS QUESTION -- Could Lair be done under its current spec on the Xbox 360?
If so, why go with the PlayStation 3 "only" instead of going cross-platform?


Eggebrecht: Lair in its current form couldn't be done on 360. We are using large amounts of Cell's SPUs for all of our geometry, landscape, simulations, animations, even troop AI.
When we create a game, we absolutely focus on the platform it is designed around.
Would we do one for 360, it would be a different game and a different engine -- most crucially perhaps though: Lair is an entirely different game without the motion control and gesture recognition since it was designed around it.

all in all, despite the 4GB single level, the most significant difference according to this man is the sixaxis joypad.
and from what I've seen in all videos I could find, not much of those 4GBs is spend on troop A.I.



also I'd like to comment to aldo:

as you know, all these games like Lair and Motorstorm and Resistance, MAYBE they are being called "1st generation" or "Launch" games,
but of course you would remember that they are in development a whole lota time.

I recall them from E3 2005.

so maybe they are the first to launch with ps3, but they are in development more time than many of what we call "2nd generation" 360 games.
heck, warhack will be released summer 2007. that release is even longer than many 360 2nd gen. titles!

think about that...

also, resistance team may have used all this time to create a trillion levels, but for me its very simple, its like this:

put it next to gears of war. look at them side by side. now you tell me.

 

[Darkon]

very correct ban25.

also I would like to quote mr eggebrecht on a very recent interview (september 21st):


all in all, despite the 4GB single level, the most significant difference according to this man is the sixaxis joypad.
and from what I've seen in all videos I could find, not much of those 4GBs is spend on troop A.I.



also I'd like to comment to aldo:

as you know, all these games like Lair and Motorstorm and Resistance, MAYBE they are being called "1st generation" or "Launch" games,
but of course you would remember that they are in development a whole lota time.

I recall them from E3 2005.

so maybe they are the first to launch with ps3, but they are in development more time than many of what we call "2nd generation" 360 games.
heck, warhack will be released summer 2007. that release is even longer than many 360 2nd gen. titles!

think about that...

also, resistance team may have used all this time to create a trillion levels, but for me its very simple, its like this:

put it next to gears of war. look at them side by side. now you tell me.

bit unfair no ? both teams probably started around the same time working on their game but one team had to start from scratch while the other had a descent engine to start with.

 

[-=P3tRaN=-]

correct observation, but not entirely.
how descent was it? until very recently, it was running on one core. until this moment, they are still trying to get the framerate.
we have seen one of microsofts MAIN games, a trilogy, to dissapear humiliated because of technical problems running on that same engine.
and the fact remains that resistance team have always had an option to either spend time on building the engine, or the maps.

it is unfair to put resistance next to gears though, I agree.

 

[Squeak]

From what understand the only use of the sensor bar is for pointing at things on screen (like the browser). Otherwise how would it track the remote when you swing a bat for instance.

Isn't that what I said? Read my other posts on the subject in this thread.

With that in mind, the SIXAXIS is basically the same as the wii controller, minus the ability to grip it in one hand.

I don't know what you mean with "only" and "basically the same", you shouldn't play down the pointing feature. It's the main function of the wiimote.
It would be like saying: "well yeah, the Playstation an N64 controller is basically the same except the N64 has an analog stick", when indeed the analog was what made the whole difference.

 

[Hekmat]

put it (Resistance) next to gears of war. look at them side by side. now you tell me.

I don't know. I do agree that in terms of sheer graphics GoW does look better than Resistance (this is very apparent in screenshots). However, from the gameplay videos I've seen, most of the enviroments in Gear are

1) Smaller
2) In-doors
3) Less things happening on screen simultaneously
*4) Lower Framerate. I put an asterix next to this point as I'm assuming this will be cleared up by release.


When you take those three things into account, I don't think either one has a clear technical edge.

 

[MatchMade]

Yes. I was hoping for some response on my lazy programmer line and i did mean it in every sense of the word. I am a programmer, i have worked in a software development company and i can tell you from experience with the largly ad hoc environment we work in (yes we have plans and hitlists but im sure all developers alike will agree some of the better aspects of softweare dev is winged and discovered totally by accident. One thing i can say that has been 100% in all cases developers never hit deadlines with what they set out to do ) and this is my point with lazy, its not lazy really, it means they dont have to waste time thinking before they do anything they just do it, make the level and as long as it fits on the disk its ok. We the gamers pull this apart later when we find levels crashing, loading times getting longer and longer. Personally i dont think increasing storage size will ever be the answer. Ill keep saying it, zelda 3 and chrono trigger were sme of the longest no fmv games ive ever played and they did it with no more than 5 megs . . its amazing when you say it, 5 megs compared to 50 GIG and im sure we will all agree we can get those 2 games out tomorrow, play them and really really enjoy them. Games made today soon get put back in their boxes and never played again until that bored day. Ive bought a lot of 360 games over the months and probably played each for no more than 4 hrs . . . most of which i finished which is another cause of my concern with todays modern games. I think for the kids really who may have to save their allowance or pt job money to get these £50 games, they may be working for £3 an hr some of them the games they work hard for i believe should give them at least an hour fopr every pound they spent on it, then throw in 10 more.

Again back ot with the controllers, i do believe nintendo and sony have shown the initiative with the way we play games, Sony however i have a ? over as you will never know if they blatantly ripped off nintendo or just had massive problems making it work hence the late showing. I go for the former as i believe the playstation was developed with nintendo, but dont quote me on that. final word, lets hope the Sonys tilt works and doesnt mess with games in some crazy way . .imagine a game where the camera was controlled with the tilt somehow and you have a bouncing kid next to you . . Game Over followed by a crying kid, whack.

 

[aldo]

but they are in development more time than many of what we call "2nd generation" 360 games.
heck, warhack will be released summer 2007. that release is even longer than many 360 2nd gen. titles!

think about that...
also, resistance team may have used all this time to create a trillion levels, but for me its very simple, its like this:

put it next to gears of war. look at them side by side. now you tell me.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that if they had not been alloted the additional development time they may have limited the number of levels and then the extra disk capacity would not have been an issue?

My reason for posting was to show that developers like Insomniac are compressing their data and still ending up with up to 300 megs of unique data on each of their 40 levels.

You seem skeptical of the need for data capacity beyond the DVD and Ted Price seems to be aware that some devs are 'giggling' over this as he himself states, "I realize that some people will still be skeptical unless we provide an actual layout of the disc. But for now I wanted to give you some better info."

-aldo

 

[-=P3tRaN=-]

yes aldo. I am being sceptical of the need of incease of capacity. and evenmore, the promotion of this as the number one thing.
I much prefer the increase on quality. quality solves capacity amongst many-many other things.
we are talking about games. not growing encyclopedias or global telephone databases that fundamentally need increasingly more space.
the are some very good opinions written already on this very thread. may I suggest you read some of them?

 

[MatchMade]

May i just add, a little off topic. but here it is. If you are devoted to a company then nothing they do, however inventive will never be good enough for you. In case you are even a little interested in my swing, so to speak, im all for the 360. Great price, everything coming down, the prospect of forza, gow, halo. will be getting the wii, just have to see first hand if that control works just like the real thing as they keep saying in the interview. Sony however, have lost my vote. Too expensive, total lack of respect for european buyers, im not paying for a machine where the only thing people go on and on about is it looks better (graphics that is, the console as we all know looks like the foreman). graphics dont make a game and never have. as ive said in an earlier post some of the best games weve played and still play werent all that good in graphics. yes youd expect a tree to look like a tree but if it took like 2 weeks to program the tree, christ go back to bilboarding and build us another level.

 

[Chandler]

Isn't that what I said? Read my other posts on the subject in this thread.

I don't know what you mean with "only" and "basically the same", you shouldn't play down the pointing feature. It's the main function of the wiimote.
It would be like saying: "well yeah, the Playstation an N64 controller is basically the same except the N64 has an analog stick", when indeed the analog was what made the whole difference.

okay, well let's list the features that can only be had with pointing:

- FPS targeting
- Light gun games

can you guys help list some more

 

[Rolf N]

yes aldo. I am being sceptical of the need of incease of capacity. and evenmore, the promotion of this as the number one thing.
I much prefer the increase on quality. quality solves capacity amongst many-many other things.

Now you've completely stopped making any sense.
Higher quality assets require more storage.

we are talking about games. not growing encyclopedias or global telephone databases that fundamentally need increasingly more space.

With all else being equal, a better-looking or just plain longer game is a larger game.

the are some very good opinions written already on this very thread. may I suggest you read some of them?

Unbelievable.

 

[StefanS]

okay, well let's list the features that can only be had with pointing:

- FPS targeting
- Light gun games

can you guys help list some more

FPS targeting is much too narrow. Everything in first person benefits without a doubt from pointing. Whether it is a shooter, an RPG, etc. doesn't matter. Plus don't forget that Wii has two independant accelerometer, meaning games that "use" two hand input are possible, i.e. like the WiiSports boxing demo (let's call them "advanced" gesturing).

So a list would rather look like this:

- first person games: FPS, sword games, RPGs, etc.
- strategy titles
- classic point and click adventures
- "advanced" gesturing

I am pretty sure there're more uses but that's the first few I came up with.

 

[pipo]

Third person shooters are also in. RE4 par example, which isn't really a light gun game.

 

[-tkf-]

yes aldo. I am being sceptical of the need of incease of capacity. and evenmore, the promotion of this as the number one thing.
I much prefer the increase on quality. quality solves capacity amongst many-many other things.
we are talking about games. not growing encyclopedias or global telephone databases that fundamentally need increasingly more space.
the are some very good opinions written already on this very thread. may I suggest you read some of them?

I think you couldn´t be more wrong, limit the developers/artist and you get better results?

Quality solves capacity, how exactly?

You still haven´t told us how more space can be a bad thing, or why the 360 couldn´t just have had a CDROM drive. All your arguments could be made about CD-ROM.

 

[valioso]

I think this is part of why the more space = better stuff doesnt really hold much water

Textures and models have been created at mural size, so large that they come to almost 1 Gig, but Gastronaut has managed to squeeze it all down to the Arcade game limit of 50 Meg

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3153719

 

[-tkf-]

I think this is part of why the more space = better stuff doesnt really hold much water



http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3153719

I have seen that shit ever since i started reading game mags. They might as well have said one terrabyte, who knows what they actually mean and really, who cares?

 

[valioso]

I dont know what they really meant, but is obvious that compression techniques and tools are always improving. So I don't think the space is going to end up being that huge a deal when all is said and done in 5 or 6 yrs.