Technical question regarding scaling in PS3 games.

[Statix]

I've taken a glance at the list of rendering resolutions for console games (link), and I notice that several PS3 games, including GH3, CoD3, Conan, Tony Hawk, and Def Jam, are run at sub-720p resolutions (less than 1280x720p).

However, to the best of my knowledge, NONE of these games supports upscaled output to 1080i or 1080p. Now, as we all know, this is a major problem and glitch on the part of the PS3 hardware, because the lack of 1080 output means that many older HDTV sets are forced to play these games in 480p/i.

My question is, what could be the excuse or rationale for not supporting upscaled 1080p/i output, when the game is being scaled ANYWAY? For instance, 1024*568 needs to be UPSCALED to 1280*720; 1148*640 needs to be upscaled to 1280*720; and so on and so forth. For what reason do these games not ALSO support upscaling to 1080p/i (1920*1080) and fulfill the TRC for 1080p/i output capability, when the game is forced to scale anyway and theoretically would not sacrifice any additional processing power regardless?

 

[kyleb]

It does take more processing power to upscale to a higher resoltion, but the limiting factor is likely more often than not the fact that it also takes more memory.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I believe all the titles you listed are multiplatform games. I don't think the PS3 really needs to upscale in most cases. Your TV automatically upscales to native resolution (unless it's an old-school HD-Ready CRT...not a ton of them in homes). In that case, you would need 1080p support in the game and have the PS3 interlace the 1080p signal (turn 1080p into 1080i) for the CRT TV.

Older games didn't really have that support for upscaling to 1080p because Sony didn't make them aware of the scaler inside the PS3 at that time. Personally, I believe it was an attempt to make developers provide native HD resolution games. Just about every new game has support for 1080i/p, now. However, on a side note, I don't agree with this serge of non-HD native resolution games.

Bottom line is that developers have to consider the resolutions (upscaled and native) they want to provide when developing the games they create for the PS3.

 

[Statix]

If you don't think there are a lot of people who have slightly older HDTVs, you should visit this thread. It has literally hundreds of pages of posts by people complaining about being forced to play most PS3 games in 480p.

 

[Asher]

Yeah, I think a lot more people have these sets than some know. I know my parents have one (that I convinced them to get...a long, long time ago) and my best friend still has one -- both Sony WEGA XBRs. Cost a fortune, and doesn't support 720p at all...

I think there's a lot of overlap between early adopters of HDTV and early adopters of the PS3...

 

[djskribbles]

there are a lot, but the percentage is very small, and as time goes on, that number will get even smaller. i think thats why some developers don't even care to support 1080i... not enough demand for it.

 

[PS3MAN]

I think it depend on developer to show their works on PS3 via 720p or 1080i/p for
the best looking. 720p games can be play with 1080p tv and 1080i/p can be play with 720p tv. The different is only your opinion that which one is the best for your mind.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

there are a lot, but the percentage is very small, and as time goes on, that number will get even smaller. i think thats why some developers don't even care to support 1080i... not enough demand for it.

+1 That's exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Statix]

So, let's just screw over the 15-20% of HDTV owners out there that bought their 1080i TVs a couple years ago. Just because they're not the "majority." That's alright by you and Sony? That they have the choice to either toss away their $2000+ big-screen, or play all PS3 games in 480p?

How amazingly considerate. Just because so many gamers out there only bought HDTVs recently for the new consoles, rather than a couple years ago, and the issue doesn't affect them, they claim that the issue "isn't a big deal," and that Sony should just wait all the complaints out and leave the population hanging out to dry.

Imagine this scenario: How would you feel if you had just a 720p TV that you paid ~$1500 for recently. But the next generation of consoles comes out next year, and they only support 1080p, not 1080i or 720p. Therefore, you're forced to play every next-gen game in 480p. What would your stance be on this "non-issue" then?

 

[Nesh]

I dont know what the hell is going on but any PS3 game I ve seen displayed on a Bravia looked even worse than my stupid SD TV.

The screen is infested with shimmering and the colors just dont look right!! The display looks as if its filled with artifacts usually seen in low rez images and videos.

What on earth is going on?

I was considering getting a Bravia TV in the future but after seeing the ugly result I just refuse to buy one. Is it because of bad calibration?

Can it really be that? I ve seen this in many stores and they all looked ugly as hell.

 

[PS3MAN]

Try to use Just Scan method Nesh.

 

[rekator]

Some "stupid " SD TV got better contrast and color than many "Hype" HD TV…
But for low rez aspect… where you saw this? In a shop or in friend's house?
If you can tweak the TV and the PS3 made it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Imagine this scenario: How would you feel if you had just a 720p TV that you paid ~$1500 for recently. But the next generation of consoles comes out next year, and they only support 1080p, not 1080i or 720p. Therefore, you're forced to play every next-gen game in 480p. What would your stance be on this "non-issue" then?

To be accurate, the TVs affected don't support 720p. 720p is the de facto standard. All games support 720p. The problem is in TVs that don't support 720p and only support 1080i resolutions, where games have to be written to output that mode. That is a very small number I think, but it does majorly suck. The real problem here lies with the TV companies who couldn't sort themselves out and threw out any old tech without ensuring future support. Early adopters and pioneers have it rough

MS got it right - provide as much flexibility to support as wide a market as possible. Not everyone has an HDTV, especially one that's available all the time. Pretty mch everyone has access to an HD monitor though. Perhaps one step up would be to select native rendering resolutions for anything up to 1080p, so people with 768p, 1050p etc sets can get 1:1 pixel mapping should they choose. I don't know how developers would feel about that. It's an ugly complication that goes against the joys of fixed-hardware systems IMO, but they're having to manage rendering to 3 different resolutions already, so it's a short step up. If you're supporting 1080p.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

So, let's just screw over the 15-20% of HDTV owners out there that bought their 1080i TVs a couple years ago. Just because they're not the "majority." That's alright by you and Sony? That they have the choice to either toss away their $2000+ big-screen, or play all PS3 games in 480p?

How amazingly considerate. Just because so many gamers out there only bought HDTVs recently for the new consoles, rather than a couple years ago, and the issue doesn't affect them, they claim that the issue "isn't a big deal," and that Sony should just wait all the complaints out and leave the population hanging out to dry.

Imagine this scenario: How would you feel if you had just a 720p TV that you paid ~$1500 for recently. But the next generation of consoles comes out next year, and they only support 1080p, not 1080i or 720p. Therefore, you're forced to play every next-gen game in 480p. What would your stance be on this "non-issue" then?

I agree with Shifty.

If you bought a rear projection HD-Ready CRT a couple of years ago, I can't have too much sympathy for you. The first 1080p TVs were being sold a couple of years ago. 720p TVs were being sold a couple of years before that. Earlier still was when rear projection HD-Ready TVs were popular.

In other words, if you buy near the bottom (rear projection HD-Ready TV a couple of years ago), you can't reasonably place the blame on anyone but yourself, IMHO. We are talking around 7 years since it's debut!

I think consumers should do their research before buying things. Otherwise, a salesperson will sell you anything.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that's a little unfair on buyers. When many bought these HD TVs, they didn't know what the future tech was going to require. Neither did the people making them. I don't think it's anyone's fault exactly, rather just an unfortunate consequence of humanity being unable organise itself effectively. The companies do confuse matters too. In the EU a standard was introduced so buyers would know what TVs are suitable. In the US that wasn't the case, and no-one had reason to suspect the tech they were buying wouldn't work with future consoles. Never before have we had consoles that don't just plug into a TV and work - things have suddenly become complicated. Consumer pioneers should be aware that they really are taking a gamble getting in first, but not everyone who's got the cash together for a new, satisfying purchase has followed other markets or been burned before to know this. Because of that, supporting those who made early, not so great decisions, is a big plus-point for manufacturers. You can argue Sony's output options were reasonable for current tech, but MS's choices are far more friendly and encouraging.

 

[tuna]

I think that's a little unfair on buyers. When many bought these HD TVs, they didn't know what the future tech was going to require. Neither did the people making them. I don't think it's anyone's fault exactly, rather just an unfortunate consequence of humanity being unable organise itself effectively. The companies do confuse matters too. In the EU a standard was introduced so buyers would know what TVs are suitable. In the US that wasn't the case, and no-one had reason to suspect the tech they were buying wouldn't work with future consoles. Never before have we had consoles that don't just plug into a TV and work - things have suddenly become complicated. Consumer pioneers should be aware that they really are taking a gamble getting in first, but not everyone who's got the cash together for a new, satisfying purchase has followed other markets or been burned before to know this. Because of that, supporting those who made early, not so great decisions, is a big plus-point for manufacturers. You can argue Sony's output options were reasonable for current tech, but MS's choices are far more friendly and encouraging.

You can "just plug into a TV and work" but you don't get a signal (1080i) optimized for your crappy TV.

And also, any 720p TV should accept a 1080p signal, all "HD ready" TVs do. But of course there are some crappy TVs that are exceptions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you bought a TV before HD Ready existed, or in a country where HD Ready has never existed, you wouldn't have been informed about potential troubles with HD signals that were incompatible with your HDTV.

 

[Statix]

You guys are just plain WRONG. 1080i was just as much an HD standard as 720p was back in the early days of HDTV's inception. In fact, 1080i is as much an HD standard as 720p is now. 1080p is the future de-facto standard. So all of us who bought our HDTVs a couple years ago (I don't think 2004 is such an unreasonable, early adopter, "olde days" amount of time) aren't the ones that made a "bad purchasing decision" just because ONE SINGLE DEVICE (the PS3) doesn't work with it.

Second vital point that you must all realize: EVERY HI-DEF DEVICE SUPPORTS 1080i. EVERY ONE. That is, every HD device up until the PS3's FAULTY hardware came out. The blame isn't on certain people's TVs for not supporting every HD standard. The blame lies squarely on the PS3's lack of a scaler and consequential lack of support for the 1080i and 1080p HDTV standards. The PS3 is the odd one out here, NOT our 1080i TVs.

Again, to reiterate, EVERY HD device in history supports 1080i, EXCEPT the PS3. I'm talking about DirectTV receivers, cable set top boxes, the XBOX 360, OTA receivers... and so on and so forth. Fact is, the PS3 is the one at fault here; NOT our "outdated and poor-purchasing decision" 1080i HDTVs. The PS3 is the broken, faulty, "obsolete" link in the chain. Don't act like all of us 1080i HDTV owners "had it coming" or are "screwed" in HDTV land because we don't support 720p and thus can't use ANYTHING. The only thing we can't use is the PS3. Period. EVERYTHING ELSE works like a charm.

You can "just plug into a TV and work" but you don't get a signal (1080i) optimized for your crappy TV.

And also, any 720p TV should accept a 1080p signal, all "HD ready" TVs do. But of course there are some crappy TVs that are exceptions.

And here we go with the TYPICALLY condescending, naive, misinformed statements again about our "crappy" TVs that don't support 720p or 1080p. Fact of the matter is, the vast majority of HDTVs installed in homes DO NOT support 1080p inputs. I have a 42" LCD that I bought about a year and a half ago. That's not a very long time, and it DOES NOT support 1080p! It's a popular model and a common, popular name brand TV. FACT: Most LCDs and HDTVs up until about a year and a half ago DID NOT SUPPORT 1080p INPUTS. You're going to call my TV, and all the others, a "crappy TV" because it's such an "old, outdated" piece of junk, right? Because I bought it such a long time ago (1 year)?

Same thing about no support for 720p; most HDTVs that don't support 720p inputs are CRT HDTVs, which were extremely prevalent and popular from around 2004 and prior. Aside from having arguably better image quality than the 720p LCD TVs that you see all over the place nowadays, there are probably still a ton of people who use CRT TVs still.

It's just so irritating to see all these persistently naive and flat-out incorrect remarks by all these HDTV newcomers who really don't know a whole hell of a lot about HDTVs, or their history, prior to them buying their single lone LCD-TV to accompany their next-gen console purchase about a year or so ago. You know who you are.

 

[Arwin]

HD Ready means that your TV should be able to deal with at least both 720p and 1080i, not 1080p.

 

[function]

What kind of scaling do the PS3 games that use scaling, erm, use?

Is that "horizontal scaling" on the video output chip simple linear, two sample? And what about the games that scale in software (where I imagine bilinear would be fastest)?

I know from my Nvidia video card that using it to scale the output image (with what I understand to be bilinear) I get a pretty foul output, and am glad I don't have to rely on it.