Technical Game Engine Comparisons: non-subjective *OffTopic Cleanup Spawn*

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If we sacrifice huge scope for pure graphics quality then Detroit might just be the engine to show it off.
The rendering, models, textures and post process FX are just far superior to something like Battlefront.

You know that screen space reflections are a post processing effect and that they are using fullres raytracing screen space reflections in Battlefront 2 (same with ME: Andromeda). I doubt that Detroits reflections can get to that. The Engine is good but I also saw some uglys scenes with snow. Bokeh DoF also has a very high quality in Battlefront.
 
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You know that screen space reflections are a post processing effect and that they are using fullres raytracing screen space reflections in Battlefront 2 (same with ME: Andromeda). I doubt that Detroits reflections can get to that. The Engine is good but I also saw some uglys scenes with snow. Bokeh DoF also has a very high quality in Battlefront.
SSR is used far more extensively in Detroit, the Bokeh quality is also beyond anything I've seen to date and used far more than BF2. I thought the snow scene looked incredible too. But aside from the small nitpicks here, the bulk of the game's rendering feature and asset quality is easily far above the likes of BF.
Also are you ever gonna stop jumping from one game to another trying to prove a point? Just stick to one game engine for once, you can't just employ a laundry list of games and compare all of their best features against one single game's features, how fair is that lol? Remember it's the sum of all its part that matters. See this quote from DF about Detroit's visuals
We've examined many beautiful games over the years but if you look closely enough, there are usually minor faults to be found. That's not really a feeling we get with Detroit generally. While the vision is more limited in scope, it feels as if every element of the presentation has been executed almost to perfection.
 
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It really is not well optimized.


I would call that basics in terms of optimizing.

Be that as it may or may not, I'm able to get better than console settings at 60fps on my 1050 ti.

Crysis 2 on the other hand is a buggy console port with bastardized tessellation usage.
 
The older Battlefront of 2015 matches this easily. Uncharted 4 has a flat 2d ground, low AF, missing shadows in this scene. It does look good, but I don't see how it can keep up with Battlefront Endor. There's a lot more action on the screen in Battlefront.

Endor is a static map with the same assets repeated over and over with no gameplay mechanics. From this point of view, a game like Doom is more impressive because it's a real game with real gameplay mechanics.

In Battlefront, the engine basically has to produce the environnement while everything else is controlled by players. Their single player mode is usually pathetic and very limited.

You can compare the chase scene in Battlefront 1 and Uncharted 4 to know what i mean... the game logic is far more complex in Uncharted 4.

In 2013 there were even many technically advanced games, where the PlayStation 3 version of GTA V can by no means keep up. Killzone Shadow Fall, Crysis 3, Ryse, Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag etc.

It's relative to the hardware limitations. It's why Zelda was nominated in the last GDC.
 
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Be that as it may or may not, I'm able to get better than console settings at 60fps on my 1050 ti.

Crysis 2 on the other hand is a buggy console port with bastardized tessellation usage.

The tesselation was very good in Crysis 2. That it would always use Tesselation even underwater was a myth. This only came up in the debug mode. Battlefield 3 was a sub 30fps game on PlayStation 3 as well.

The vegetation in Witcher 3 looks like it has no normal and specular map. They are using alpha testing without temporal AA and there is no backlight scattering and therefore it looks like it's all 2d paper. One can do a lot more than that. Maybe not necessarily in density but definitely in shading.

SSR is used far more extensively in Detroit, the Bokeh quality is also beyond anything I've seen to date and used far more than BF2. I thought the snow scene looked incredible too. But aside from the small nitpicks here, the bulk of the game's rendering feature and asset quality is easily far above the likes of BF.
Also are you ever gonna stop jumping from one game to another trying to prove a point? Just stick to one game engine for once, you can't just employ a laundry list of games and compare all of their best features against one single game's features, how fair is that lol? Remember it's the sum of all its part that matters. See this quote from DF about Detroit's visuals

It is also common in puddles and other waters in some areas SSR can be seen everywhere. Why should SSR be used much more frequently in Detroit? It's not like Battlefront 2 doesn't use it much and the SSR quality on the PC is significantly better than the reflections from Detroit (unfortunately, some games have very bad reflections on consoles). It costs a lot of performance and the quaility of something like that will often be reduced for a better performance/optics ratio on the console. The same applies to Bokeh DoF. Saying Detroit has consistently better Post FX isn't true at all. Battlefront doesn't use Bokeh DoF as often but that doesn't mean that the quality is worse because the implementation is still good. DriveClub had ugly ingame DoF for example (see starting scenes of a race).

The statement that 60fps are not possible for open world games is not true at all. There have been functions and tricks for a long time with which one can save bandwidth. Objects then leaving the frame buffer again. That's why it depends more on the density of objects and Battlefront has a large environment with many visible objects. For example the material shading at Second Son is technically as good as at Ryse and the the assets are close as well (linear vs. open world). Small single player tube levels on the other hand can look better than open multiplayer levels but that's not the case with Destiny for example. Usually many things fail due to lack of time. The bigger problem for 60fps games are high value effects such as SVOGI. At the moment the consoles are still too slow until someone finds a trick to use it in AAA games.

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Endor is a static map with the same assets repeated over and over with no gameplay mechanics. From this point of view, a game like Doom is more impressive because it's a real game with real gameplay mechanics.

In Battlefront, the engine basically has to produce the environnement while everything else is controlled by players. Their single player mode is usually pathetic and very limited.

You can compare the chase scene in Battlefront 1 and Uncharted 4 to know what i mean... the game logic is far more complex in Uncharted 4.

In Battlefront the vegetation can be partially destroyed and it reacts to physics. Where do other games with vegetation have much more mechanics? Streaming is even more demanding in the chase scene than in Uncharted's vehicle scene due to the very high speeds.

Comparison fast racing scene (Battlefront) vs. walk area (Uncharted) without enemies.
BS_Uncharted (1).jpg
BS_Uncharted (2).jpg

Battlefront looks more movie like in my opinion.
 
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That it would always use Tesselation even underwater was a myth.
What tessellation underwater? Are you talking about the tessellation ocean line being visible in wireframe mode?

They also had concrete slabs with very simply geometry using tons of tessellation (and who knows what else..), but I'm pretty sure that was exclusive to the PC version since apparently it was there just to dwarf the performance on AMD hardware.
 
Endor is a static map with the same assets repeated over and over with no gameplay mechanics. From this point of view, a game like Doom is more impressive because it's a real game with real gameplay mechanics.

In Battlefront, the engine basically has to produce the environnement while everything else is controlled by players. Their single player mode is usually pathetic and very limited.

You can compare the chase scene in Battlefront 1 and Uncharted 4 to know what i mean... the game logic is far more complex in Uncharted 4.

That make no sense. Unpredictable gameplay at 60fps > scripted events at 30fps.
 
Streaming is even more demanding in the chase scene than in Uncharted's vehicle scene due to the very high speeds.

http://www.liaisonpr.com/news-room/2017/Mar/03/how-uncharted-4s-artists-created-their-amazing-lan/ : "The biggest moment where tech came together was the E3 chase sequence. This by far was the biggest environment when it comes to driven distance and the amount of different environmental styles as you go from the market to the docks. When it came to memory, LOD tech, modularity, streaming, car physics, prop destructibility it was an extreme challenge. Nobody at this studio or any studio for that matter has tried to do a level section with that complexity when it came to the amount of art assets that needed to be created to make all these sections of the chase."

Multiplayer games are the most basic ones. You only have to put a map and players make everything else. It doesn't work like that in a single player game : every interaction, everything is controlled by the engine.

That's why they can run at 60fps with nice graphics. It's literally impossible for a game like Uncharted 4 because the game is far too complex.

That make no sense. Unpredictable gameplay at 60fps > scripted events at 30fps.

Which game is more difficult to run at 60fps : Battlefront or GTA5 ?

They only had to reduce the resolution to get Fortnite running at 60fps... yet, even the X is unable to run 30fps Xbox one games at 60fps...
 
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http://www.liaisonpr.com/news-room/2017/Mar/03/how-uncharted-4s-artists-created-their-amazing-lan/ : "The biggest moment where tech came together was the E3 chase sequence. This by far was the biggest environment when it comes to driven distance and the amount of different environmental styles as you go from the market to the docks. When it came to memory, LOD tech, modularity, streaming, car physics, prop destructibility it was an extreme challenge. Nobody at this studio or any studio for that matter has tried to do a level section with that complexity when it came to the amount of art assets that needed to be created to make all these sections of the chase."

Multiplayer games are the most basic ones. You only have to put a map and players make everything else. It doesn't work like that in a single player game : every interaction, everything is controlled by the engine.

That's why they can run at 60fps with nice graphics. It's literally impossible for a game like Uncharted 4 because the game is far too complex.
You have that backwards, an engine has to be more robust to support unpredictable gameplay scenarios than one that simply supports scripted events.
 
That make no sense. Unpredictable gameplay at 60fps > scripted events at 30fps.

Exactly. It also needs to work smoothly when 40 players are fighting on one door, throwing in a lot of grenades, vehicles fire in with their massive weapons etc. That's hard to predict, so the engine has been extremely well optimized. Explosions look great, have a massive amount of particles but cost hardly any Performance in Battlefront. In Battlefield 4 the performance would have collapsed in the same places.

http://www.liaisonpr.com/news-room/2017/Mar/03/how-uncharted-4s-artists-created-their-amazing-lan/ : "The biggest moment where tech came together was the E3 chase sequence. This by far was the biggest environment when it comes to driven distance and the amount of different environmental styles as you go from the market to the docks. When it came to memory, LOD tech, modularity, streaming, car physics, prop destructibility it was an extreme challenge. Nobody at this studio or any studio for that matter has tried to do a level section with that complexity when it came to the amount of art assets that needed to be created to make all these sections of the chase."

Multiplayer games are the most basic ones. You only have to put a map and players make everything else. It doesn't work like that in a single player game : every interaction, everything is controlled by the engine.

That's why they can run at 60fps with nice graphics. It's literally impossible for a game like Uncharted 4 because the game is far too complex.


Which game is more difficult to run at 60fps : Battlefront or GTA5 ?

They only had to reduce the resolution to get Fortine running at 60fps... yet, even the X is unable to run 30fps Xbox one games at 60fps...

Most of the time Uncharted 4 is not as complex that it can be excluded to run at 60fps. I wouldn't say it's impossible. If they had more time and could further optimize it it would be feasible at some point. However, the vehicle section would indeed be the biggest hurdle.

The engine of Battlefront is simply much better optimized than the one of GTA V. Dice has done something unique for the time in my opinion.
 
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The engine of Battlefront is simply much better optimized than the one of GTA V. Dice has done something unique for the time in my opinion.

GTA-like games simply are far more complex than any Dice Game. There's only one open world running at 60fps : a cross-gen game that happens in a desert area (MG5). It says it all.

Once again, even on the X hardware they fail to hit 60fps for games running at 30fps on Xbox One because those games are more complex.

Battlefront runs at 60fps because the game is far more basic since the beginning... it is also true for fighting games, racing games, etc.
 
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What is more complex about a desert landscape in GTA V compared to a dense forest of Battlefront? Especially since the graphics are significantly worse. It is very possible. The CPU performance of the consoles is more limited in physics, AI and Animation but not graphics. In GTA V there are far fewer interaction possibilities than in The Division. But I don't see that much physics in games like Horizon either. Battlefront on Endor has more interaction possibilities with the environment.

That in multiplayer games ate often less gameplay relevant items with physics is due the fact that otherwise this would have to be synchronized with the server. Therefore, there will be no such thing as physical ropes (see Crysis 1) in a multiplayer title.

 
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You know that screen space reflections are a post processing effect and that they are using fullres raytracing screen space reflections in Battlefront 2 (same with ME: Andromeda). I doubt that Detroits reflections can get to that. The Engine is good but I also saw some uglys scenes with snow. Bokeh DoF also has a very high quality in Battlefront.
There seems to be a distinct lack of black people in Detroit which is strange considering it's over 80% African American.
 
What is more complex about a desert landscape in GTA V compared to a dense forest of Battlefront? Especially since the graphics are significantly worse. It is very possible. The CPU performance of the consoles is more limited in physics, AI and Animation but not graphics. In GTA V there are far fewer interaction possibilities than in The Division. But I don't see that much physics in games like Horizon either. Battlefront on Endor has more interaction possibilities with the environment.

That in multiplayer games ate often less gameplay relevant items with physics is due the fact that otherwise this would have to be synchronized with the server. Therefore, there will be no such thing as physical ropes (see Crysis 1) in a multiplayer title.


False out of interactivity with foliage and poor interactivity with water...Horizon is pretty good. You can destroy tree with one of the weapon, robot destroy tree and rock in their path, tree and foliage react to wind, snow integration is great in Frozen Wilds, sand interaction is good. Sand and snow react to the wind too...
 
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Battlefront on Endor has more interaction possibilities with the environment.

Is this a joke ? No NPCs, no dialogues, no AI, no story. I mean there's just nothing in this game outside of random maps where the players can play. There are far more possible interactions in basically any classic game compared to any multiplayer only game.

Also, about the physics :


Uncharted 4 probably has the most advanced physics of any current gen game.

Can you show me comparable gifs with Battlefront ? :



Honestly, it's getting ridiculous...

A map that isn't static to me is something like that :


And please, explain to me why games like Forza Horizon 3, Origins, Gears of War 4 always fail to run at 60fps on X while they only had to reduce the resolution in Fornite to hit 60fps ?

Edit : i found a link that basically says the same thing than me (in a much better english :LOL:).

https://iq.intel.co.uk/open-world-games-break-pc/ : "While a GPU renders what you see onscreen, the CPU orchestrates it, taking care of crucial behind-the-scenes computations like game logic and AI. While a first person shooter like Star Wars: Battlefront might astonish with its high-resolution visuals, underneath the Frostbite engine’s photogrammetric textures and volumetric lighting, the game mechanics are fairly simple. Only the multiplayer aspect puts a strain on the CPU.

Conversely, a simulation or open world game needs to perform a never-ending stream of calculations below the surface. In GTA V, for example, the vibrant city of Los Santos wouldn’t feel alive without people wandering its streets, cars driving on its roads or aircraft zooming across its sky. But this means thousands of objects to track, interactions to calculate and consequences to process."
 
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Which game is more difficult to run at 60fps : Battlefront or GTA5 ?

They only had to reduce the resolution to get Fortnite running at 60fps... yet, even the X is unable to run 30fps Xbox one games at 60fps...
Why are you switching from U4 to GTA5? As you yourself pointed out, GTA5 is simulation based while U4 is mostly scripted events.
 
Why are you switching from U4 to GTA5? As you yourself pointed out, GTA5 is simulation based while U4 is mostly scripted events.

Because i was comparing 30fps games to 60fps games. It doesn't matter and it doesn't change anything to my point.

Which game is more difficult to run at 60fps : Battlefront or Uncharted 4 ?

60fps games tend to be more basic. This is the very reason why they can run at a higher framerate. But this point is even more exarcerbated in multiplayer only games where there's basically no game mechanic. There's basically nothing oustide of random maps. How can you compare that to classic games with an actual story ?

The chase scene in Uncharted 4 is far more complex than anything you can find in Battlefront.

unchartede284a2-4_-a-thief_s-end_20160529174455.jpg


In this pic only you have more assets variety than in the whole map of Endor... please, compare what's comparable... Jupiter was implying that the game doesn't run at 60fps due to a lack of optimization which is obviously false.

Even the X systematically fails to double the framerate of XB1 games. There's a reason for that... QB is a small linear game, yet there's no 60fps mode on X. Even a game like that is far more complex than Battlefront.

You have to consider the whole package. I mean it's the basic logic for any any reasonable comparison. Just because a game runs at 60fps doesn't make it automatically more impressive. Same thing for an open world.
 
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Is this a joke ? No NPCs, no dialogues, no AI, no story. I mean there's just nothing in this game outside of random maps where the players can play. There are far more possible interactions in basically any classic game compared to any multiplayer only game.

Also, about the physics :


Uncharted 4 probably has the most advanced physics of any current gen game.

Can you show me comparable gifs with Battlefront ? :

Honestly, it's getting ridiculous...

A map that isn't static to me is something like that :

And please, explain to me why games like Forza Horizon 3, Origins, Gears of War 4 always fail to run at 60fps on X while they only had to reduce the resolution in Fornite to hit 60fps ?

Edit : i found a link that basically says the same thing than me (in a much better english :LOL:).

https://iq.intel.co.uk/open-world-games-break-pc/ : "While a GPU renders what you see onscreen, the CPU orchestrates it, taking care of crucial behind-the-scenes computations like game logic and AI. While a first person shooter like Star Wars: Battlefront might astonish with its high-resolution visuals, underneath the Frostbite engine’s photogrammetric textures and volumetric lighting, the game mechanics are fairly simple. Only the multiplayer aspect puts a strain on the CPU.

Conversely, a simulation or open world game needs to perform a never-ending stream of calculations below the surface. In GTA V, for example, the vibrant city of Los Santos wouldn’t feel alive without people wandering its streets, cars driving on its roads or aircraft zooming across its sky. But this means thousands of objects to track, interactions to calculate and consequences to process."

Why should there be more different assets in this place in Uncharted 4 than in Battlefront? In Battlefront, players can also have different faces, races, weapons, etc.

Uncharted 4 also does not have such simulations as a GTA V. This is still a relatively small and linear game.

The Division has more physics and destruction (even PhysX like with objects falling out of walls and so on that react physically) than Uncharted 4 and it still needs less CPU performance than Battlefront or Battlefield (I can see the numbers trough the Riva Tuner tool). The Division does not have this destruction and movable objects just in certain places but everywhere and everytime. If it is wanted, something could be damaged or destroyed every second.

Except for MMOs, online games do not have game logic culling. Each player's actions are calculated. Therefore Battlefront and Battlefield are calculating some actions of 40-64 players all the time. Of course one does not calculate animations for things one cannot see. A Battlefield is much more CPU demanding/heavy than what you can see in Uncharted 4 or Horizon. When I played Battlefield 1, the map sometimes looked very different from the beginning of the round. No houses, no grass etc. all destroyed and brown/grey instead of green. I could agree you with 12 Players but 40 to 64 are already another league. Especially if they can cause many explosions, etc. 64 players in Battlefield 1 are currently too much on the consoles on some maps.

As far as I know Gears of War 4 has a 60fps mode one Xbox One X. The game is very simple as far as simulations are concerned. Most video games are GPU bound. When the GPU is limiting a lower resolution is often useless because it is limited due to vertex load. The Division would easily run on the Xbox One X at 60fps (my CPU is falling asleep there). Nevertheless, a choise does not exist.

In Wildlands jungle, only 25% of the 5Ghz i7 8700k is used. On the other hand the GTX 1080 Ti is used by 100%. Open world does not automatically mean that a lot of CPU performance is needed. The CPU creates the list of objects and the instance parameters to be rendered. The actual rendering of the geometry belonging to these objects is done by the GPU alone. The CPU is used for geometry only if completely new meshes have to be created dynamically and one cannot do it on the GPU due to the requirements. Determining what is to be rendered and what is not is extremly easy for currecnt CPUs. A little bit more visibility doesn't matter. The CPU is used when these additional objects have CPU heavy things like animations. As long as there is not a lot of physics or AI simulations or animations the CPUs on high end PCs is not used a lot. The most critical titles are those with crowds of people like AC: Unity or Watch Dogs which either occur in masses or have their daily routines. In the end one always has to measure to see exactly what the bottleneck is.

That crysis mod looks insane, never seen that much impressive particles, nothing even current gen.

Yes, and they all respond correctly to physics. GPU particles are culling a lot today and usually only a small part reacts to physics. I'd like to see such massive destruction and explosions in a single player game. The video is also a reupload and in reality several years older.
 
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Because i was comparing 30fps games to 60fps games. It doesn't matter and it doesn't change anything to my point.

Which game is more difficult to run at 60fps : Battlefront or Uncharted 4 ?

60fps games tend to be more basic. This is the very reason why they can run at a higher framerate. But this point is even more exarcerbated in multiplayer only games where there's basically no game mechanic. There's basically nothing oustide of random maps. How can you compare that to classic games with an actual story ?

The chase scene in Uncharted 4 is far more complex than anything you can find in Battlefront.

unchartede284a2-4_-a-thief_s-end_20160529174455.jpg


In this pic only you have more assets variety than in the whole map of Endor... please, compare what's comparable... Jupiter was implying that the game doesn't run at 60fps due to a lack of optimization which is obviously false.

Even the X systematically fails to double the framerate of XB1 games. There's a reason for that... QB is a small linear game, yet there's no 60fps mode on X. Even a game like that is far more complex than Battlefront.

You have to consider the whole package. I mean it's the basic logic for any any reasonable comparison. Just because a game runs at 60fps doesn't make it automatically more impressive. Same thing for an open world.
The chase scene is 99% scripted, unscripted gameplay is far more complex. U4 is vastly different from GTAV. To use them interchangeably just because both run at 30fps is just silly.
 
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