Supreme Court overturns Texas Sodomy Law (w00t!)

Hi Sabastian,
Sabastian said:
Wow what a skewed view you have. Over 80% of human kind is absolutely strictly heterosexual. Exclusive homosexuals represent less then 1% and bisexuals the remainder. They represent the largest portion of homosexual activity and absolutely choose one way or the other. I am not going to argue on your fantasy figures you've presented.
Sorry to come up, once again, with Swiss numbers, but well. . . the percentage of openly, "active" gay people is about 20%, here, "active" bisexuals at about 25-30%. That makes about 50% that claim never to have had any homosexual EXPERIENCE. How many of these may be closet homos? How many are "flexible" enough to admit that, under certain circumstances, they could contemplate having intercourse with a member (ahaha) of the same sex? Just because you don't do something doesn't mean you wouldn't if the opportunity seemed right. I don't drive, does this make me strictly anti-driving? No--just did never come around getting my license, that's all. I'm all for driving, and hope that one day I'll invest the time.

Statistics based on interrogation are FUD. You can never be sure whether people did lie or not, and whether the statistic was skewed by the people who made it to begin with. Best to leave this out of the picture. You'll find many psychologists who'll back Natoma's "about 1% of people are psychologically 'pure' heterosexuals, about 1% are 'pure' homosexuals, the rest is more or less bisexual" but you'll find just as many psychologists who deny it.

All,

do we need, again, a discussion about homos should marry or not? We had that before, hadn't we? Could we get back to sodomy, please? Thanks. ;)

93,
-Sascha.rb
 
I think i will pass on this one as well. I am rather tired of my points being ignored in other threads concerning this or similiar material. Its clear many people here are going to believe what they want concerning this and other subject material truth/facts be damned.
 
Minorities are prone to inflate their numbers in order to score political points.
Let's just say I believe those "Swiss" figures are way off. Way off. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of humans are gay.
 
Natoma said:
Then you don't understand human sexual psychology. I haven't created any "fantasy" figures at all. Roughly 90% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the opposite sex. Roughly 10% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the same sex. The remainder percentage is what we deem true bisexuals, i.e. those who are equally sexually aroused by members of both sexes.

If you look at the numbers from a sexual response viewpoint, which means simply attraction to someone else, then the numbers become far more bisexual in nature. Roughly 1% of the population from a sexual response viewpoint is exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, meaning that they cannot look at a woman if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Or they cannot look at a man if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Etc etc etc.

This was all covered in my psyche courses on the human sexual response and condition, not to mention myriad books I've read on the subject. You didn't study this stuff?

What a load of crap. Being able to distinguish if someone is aesthetically pleasing doesn't mean you are gay, only a moron would come to that conclusion. By exclusively homosexual I mean less then 1% actively engage in homosexual activity only and not able to have heterosexual sex. The rest of homosexual activity is performed by bisexuals whom make a cognizant choice. Natoma takes this line of action because I am using the choice based argument and linking this with the larger bisexual community. Bisexuals though are not homosexuals or heterosexual. Humanity is absolutely primarily heterosexual in nature and logically so it is the mechanism by which the species reproduces. 1% of the population is heterosexual, lol, what a farce. A fantasy indeed.

This 10% number is entirely an urban legend. The vast number of statistical evidence is that homosexuals account for about 2% of the population and approximately only 1% or less are exclusively homosexual. Any statistical evidence suggesting larger proportions ought to be questioned particularly if the criterion for being bisexual or homosexual is if you can tell if someone is aesthetically unobjectionable or not.

Sorry for the belated response I had to go to work.
 
Sabastian, I never stated that finding someone of the opposite sex attractive makes you heterosexual, or finding someone of the same sex attractive makes you homosexual. The sexual response, and the sexual arousal response, are two separate entities.

There are a great many women who I think are very attractive. Am I sexually aroused by them? No. There is a huge distinction there. Just as a lot of heterosexual guys I know think someone like Tom Cruise is attractive, does not mean that they are indeed sexually aroused by them.

I suggest you do some extracurricular reading on the varying human sexual responses.

p.s.: Human sexuality is not a choice. Acting on that sexuality is the choice. Yet another huge distinction you're missing.

I didn't choose to be gay. I chose to act on my feelings however. If you want to condemn me for not choosing celibacy, then so be it. But I can't change the sex I'm attracted to anymore than you can.
 
Dave H said:
Natoma said:
The supreme court ruled that banning consensual homosexual sex is unconstitutional. So under that ruling, there is no legal reason anymore to ban homosexuals from getting married, adopting, serving openly in the military, etc.

Natoma, I agree with you on just about everything else in this thread, but this is factually incorrect. The majority opinion in Lawrence was made on right to privacy grounds: they held that there is a presumptive (but not absolute) right--derived from the general right to liberty found in the due process clause of the 14th Amendment--to choose one's own sexual behavior behind closed doors, and that there is "no legitimate state interest," in the case of consensual adult gay sex, to override that presumption.

<snip>

Indeed I agree. However, the dissent of Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist, as well as the majority opinion of O'Connor, opened the door to not allow discrimination for adoption, marriage, gays in the military, etc. Why? They all stated that they did not like the use of the "Right to Privacy" by the majority (though O'Connor still voted to overturn the texas law, and all sodomy laws, despite her dislike of the reason).

They all stated that the sodomy laws were silly and could have been struck down by the Equal Protection Clause. It is that statement in their dissents that opens the door wide open for marriage rights, adoption rights, and openly serving gays in the military. Though gays in the military could be shot down on the same premise women in the military was shot down. The military used the same argument, i.e. the dissolution of unit cohesion and overall morality of the armed forces, when trying to keep women from serving. I'm not sure exactly what the legal impetus behind the removal of that military law was, but it could be struck down with that.

Even in dissent, those four opened the door wide open with regard to these other issues. That is what brightened my day most.
 
Silent_One:

As I said in the other thread, if you go into a relationship knowing full well that your children will have a seriously high chance of genetic defects, and you do nothing to try and prevent that, then i consider that irresponsible towards the child. An incestual couple knows their kids will have genetic defects even before they get together. A random couple does not.

As I also said, sterilization was only an option I raised. Not necessarily a course of action. Frankly I didn't feel I needed to state it again but fine. If you know that your coupling with another human being has a seriously high risk for causing genetic defects in your children, sterilization is an option. So is invitro fertilization. So will be low level genetic manipulation.

I stated all these as options to use to prevent genetic defects. What am I going to have to do. State it again a page from now when you still don't understand?

Legion:

Maybe if you would learn to read and see that I addressed your questions over and over and over again, you would stop asking the same silly questions. I stopped responding to you because I kept answering your question and you kept ignoring it, saying I wasn't answering your question. I even made a post mocking the way in which you respond to things. Probably ignored that one too. :rolleyes:
 
CosmoKramer said:
Minorities are prone to inflate their numbers in order to score political points.
Let's just say I believe those "Swiss" figures are way off. Way off. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of humans are gay.

It depends on how you define gay. Many homosexually inclined people choose to stay in heterosexual relationships because they do not wish to deal with their sexuality. They do not wish to be actively gay and follow their natural feelings. So they go through the motions. They get married, raise families, live the "straight" life, etc etc etc. I should know. I seriously considered doing that myself. The main reason is because I definitely want to have children, and I didn't think I could have children unless I got married and raised a family. Little did I know about things such as in vitro fertilization. But I digress.

In terms of active homosexuals, the percentage of the population is rather low. In terms of homosexuals defined by the sexual arousal response, the numbers as a percentage of the population definitely go over 5%. But this is more a response to societal bigotry, the difficulty with living as gay men and women, than anything else.
 
Natoma said:
Sabastian, I never stated that finding someone of the opposite sex attractive makes you heterosexual, or finding someone of the same sex attractive makes you homosexual. The sexual response, and the sexual arousal response, are two separate entities.

There are a great many women who I think are very attractive. Am I sexually aroused by them? No. There is a huge distinction there. Just as a lot of heterosexual guys I know think someone like Tom Cruise is attractive, does not mean that they are indeed sexually aroused by them.

I suggest you do some extracurricular reading on the varying human sexual responses.

lol, are you suggesting that only 1% of humans are only excited by the opposite sex? What a yarn. You are suggesting that bisexuals account for 98% of the population based on sexual arousal. Your argument is confused and mixed up, seems you contradict your own argument. I love the continued assertion that I need to go back and become reeducated, what do you suggest I take liberal arts yet again until I believe every scrap of the garbage science they dictate?

Roughly 90% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the opposite sex. Roughly 10% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the same sex.

90% of the population is nearly exclusively excited by the opposite sex. The remaining 10% is a mix of the exclusive 1% of homosexuals that are excited by same sex and the rest are bisexuals that are subject to being excited by ether and thus make a conscious choice.

If you look at the numbers from a sexual response viewpoint, which means simply attraction to someone else, then the numbers become far more bisexual in nature.

Absolute Bullshit.

Roughly 1% of the population from a sexual response viewpoint is exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, meaning that they cannot look at a woman if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Or they cannot look at a man if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Etc etc etc.

Here you are saying that simply looking at someone and determining that they are attractive looking is grounds for bisexuality, just total crap. You are claiming that 98% of humans are bisexual which is total garbage. Now what happened to your genetic ‘I was born gay’ argument?
 
natoma wrote:
As I also said, sterilization was only an option I raised. Not necessarily a course of action. Frankly I didn't feel I needed to state it again but fine. If you know that your coupling with another human being has a seriously high risk for causing genetic defects in your children, sterilization is an option. So is invitro fertilization. So will be low level genetic manipulation.

I stated all these as options to use to prevent genetic defects. What am I going to have to do. State it again a page from now when you still don't understand?
YES.!
Silent_One wrote:
So, to be consistent you want to sterilize those couples whom may have the risk of children with Down Syndrome?

That was not the only option provided. Couples who may have the risk of children with Down Syndrome can take steps to prevent the passage of that gene today. As I told Joe, even if those steps are not completely successful, they need to try. If it doesn't work and they have the baby, then I believe they should take care of that baby to the best of their ability.

Read the long post I wrote in response to Joe.

Again, I've read it many times. Sterlization was they ONLY option you gave incestual couples. Again, as Joe said....

Because you keep failing to answer it.

Because you have stated that sterlization (eliminating chance of children) for Incest relationships makes the relationship OK.

So, if you're going to be consistent, you have two options:

1) Say that incestual relationships are OK, and sterilization is not needed. It's OK as long as they understand they take "some measures" to prevent them.

2) Say that other relationships with high degrees of risk for problems, must sterlize (or not have kids) to be OK.
(my bold)

So, once and for all, tell me. You are not against incest IF the couple take steps simular to those steps taken by couples with the risk of children with Down Syndrome?
 
The problem sabastian is that you're assuming bisexuality only means that you are sexually aroused by members of both sexes equally. As I said before, sexual arousal and attraction are two different things. I'm attracted to good looking people, just as anyone is. Am I aroused by members of the opposite sex? No. But the attraction to those members of the opposite sex is certainly a sexual response. That does *not* mean I want to jump in the sack with members of the opposite sex.

You're still missing this distinction, and it's a very important one that not too many people in the general public understand. It is not a statement of sexual orientation to say that you think someone is attractive. If you're aroused by that person, that is something that points to your sexual orientation.
 
Silent_One:

Natoma said:
I stated all these as options to use to prevent genetic defects. What am I going to have to do. State it again a page from now when you still don't understand?

Guess I didn't have to wait a page.
 
Natoma said:
The problem sabastian is that you're assuming bisexuality means that you are sexually aroused by members of both sexes equally. As I said before, sexual arousal and attraction are two different things. I'm attracted to good looking people, just as anyone is. Am I aroused by members of the opposite sex? No. But the attraction to those members of the opposite sex is certainly a sexual response. That does *not* mean I want to jump in the sack with members of the opposite sex.

Never before have I seen someone contradict themselves so blatantly. You are saying that your attraction to woman is a sexual response and in the same breath say you don’t want to have sex with them in any way. I suggest to you that it is you whom is confused.

If you are able to find someone attractive it is not a sexual response it only indicates that you are aware of their aesthetic qualities it does not indicate a sexual response at all. Your assuming that bisexuals are not equally aroused by both sexes further any sort of preference would indicate that indeed they are not bisexual at all and would skew the bisexual numbers greatly. But you have a great stake in limiting the numbers of bisexuals because their ability to choose is an abomination to your born gay arguments.

Natoma said:
You're still missing this distinction, and it's a very important one that not too many people in the general public understand. It is not a statement of sexual orientation to say that you think someone is attractive. If you're aroused by that person, that is something that points to your sexual orientation.

Not too many people understand it because it defies common sense and common feelings. In one paragraph (I can’t believe I have to pick your arguments to pieces sentence by sentence Natoma.) you say ‘the attraction to those members of the opposite sex is certainly a sexual response’ and in the next paragraph you say ‘It is not a statement of sexual orientation to say that you think someone is attractive.’ .. I say it that sexual orientation is a term used by people whom want to confuse children or even adults into thinking that their sexuality is possibly something they need direction in or educated on. Surely if they come at children with nonsense ideas like you have presented they would be confused.

A sexual response is an indication of a person’s sexuality. The ability to determine if someone is aesthetically pleasing is not an indication of sexuality and this is the distinction you are not making clear. Thus you have ridiculous arguments like below.

Natoma said:
Roughly 90% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the opposite sex. Roughly 10% of the human population is predominantly sexually aroused by members of the same sex.

Using the word predominantly suggest that 90% is fairly attracted sexually to the same gender, but the use of that word to describe heterosexuals is far from the way they actually feel about same sex relations. In fact all heterosexuals I know are disgusted by the thought of anything to do with same sex relations. Ironically if they try to articulate their feelings they are labeled homophobic, tolerance through intimidation of suggestion of ignorance and junk science. Then acceptance through force is the mentality I am seeing.

Natoma said:
"the people" need to be led kicking and screaming when it violates the constitution, even if they can't stand it. .

Natoma said:
If you look at the numbers from a sexual response viewpoint, which means simply attraction to someone else, then the numbers become far more bisexual in nature.

In particular with your below statement.

Natoma said:
Roughly 1% of the population from a sexual response viewpoint is exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, meaning that they cannot look at a woman if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Or they cannot look at a man if they are a man, and see anything attractive about them. Etc etc etc.

You are absolutely contradicting yourself, yet again.
 
Hi CosmoKramer,
CosmoKramer said:
Minorities are prone to inflate their numbers in order to score political points.
Let's just say I believe those "Swiss" figures are way off. Way off. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of humans are gay.
That posting was supposed to illustrate that you can shove statistics, in such questions, down the drain. As you say yourself, numbers can be inflated. For example, according to Prof. Uta Ranke-Heinemann, PhD (theology), 60% of the people living in the Vatican state are gay. According to official sources, about 5% of the German population is openly gay (2001 census), whereas some political parties claim 10% in their "own" surveys. The national gay groups claim 6% of the Germans being gay. Canada came up with 0.5% in a 2001 survey, the US seem to spew the 0.7% number around a lot.

Throwing numbers around won't achieve anything. Thanks for either proving or completely missing my point. ;)

93,
-Sascha.rb
 
Sabastian, you are really confused and missing the point. Not to mention misquoting things. For instance, you quoted me as saying this:

Sabastian said:
Natoma said:
"the people" need to be led kicking and screaming when it violates the constitution, even if they can't stand it.

When I said this:

Natoma said:
Marriage was once defined by "the people" as a union between those of the same race only. Anything other than that was considered illegal. Yay Anti-Miscegenation Laws.

Yet the Supreme Court struck down these laws as unconstitutional. It seems that sometimes "the people" need to be led kicking and screaming when it violates the constitution, even if they can't stand it.

Where "it" was not referring to laws that were unconstitutional being forced upon society, but the rejection of those laws created by society, even if society doesn't like it, because they are unconstitutional.

The way you're quoting me, you're making it seem as if I'm trying to force unconstitutional laws upon people when in fact I support getting rid of unconstitutional laws, even if society doesn't like it. Lord, even Joe understood what I was saying, and he's usually the one I have the most problems with.

Also, again, you are mixing up things here. I said roughly 90% of the population is predominantly aroused by the opposite sex while roughly 10% of the population is predominantly aroused by the same sex. I say predominantly because it depends on the person. Some heterosexuals, if they are honest, are aroused every once in a while by members of the same sex. However they still classify themselves as heterosexual, and their predominant sexual arousal response is to members of the opposite sex. Some homosexuals, if they are honest, are aroused every once in a while by members of the opposite sex. However they still classify themselves as homosexual, and their predominant sexual arousal response is to members of the same sex.

When looking at attraction, only 1% of the population is exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. The rest are pretty much varying shades of bisexuality.

Arousal and Attraction are two separate things that I made specifically sure to separate in my explanations above. You're still mixing them up. This isn't something I've pulled out of thin air. This is part of basic psychology wrt the human sexual response.
 
Natoma said:
When looking at attraction, only 1% of the population is exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. The rest are pretty much varying shades of bisexuality.

lol, I got no more time today to waste. lol 1% is exclusively hetrosexual, what a joke.
 
Natoma said:
Indeed I agree. However, the dissent of Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist, as well as the majority opinion of O'Connor, opened the door to not allow discrimination for adoption, marriage, gays in the military, etc. Why? They all stated that they did not like the use of the "Right to Privacy" by the majority (though O'Connor still voted to overturn the texas law, and all sodomy laws, despite her dislike of the reason).

They all stated that the sodomy laws were silly and could have been struck down by the Equal Protection Clause. It is that statement in their dissents that opens the door wide open for marriage rights, adoption rights, and openly serving gays in the military. Though gays in the military could be shot down on the same premise women in the military was shot down. The military used the same argument, i.e. the dissolution of unit cohesion and overall morality of the armed forces, when trying to keep women from serving. I'm not sure exactly what the legal impetus behind the removal of that military law was, but it could be struck down with that.

Even in dissent, those four opened the door wide open with regard to these other issues. That is what brightened my day most.

Not exactly. First off, this isn't the first time any part of the Court has found the equal protection clause to apply to homosexuals; IIRC that was Romer v. Evans, which struck down a Colorado law essentially legalizing discrimination against gay people. So the door was already open somewhat.

Second, only Justice O'Connor ruled that the equal protection clause is enough to overturn sodomy laws directed specifically at gays. The majority implied that they probably would have if they hadn't used the broader privacy rationale instead, but since they did use the privacy argument they didn't discuss equal protection explicitly.

Third, the dissenters all found that the equal protection clause was not sufficient to overturn the Texas law. Instead they made the same absurdist distinction we see some people making here, namely that the Texas law does not discriminate against homosexual people--which would indeed violate equal protection--but rather only outlaws homosexual conduct, whether performed by people whose actual sexual inclination is straight or gay. By this "reasoning", gay men do have the right to get married, so long as it's to a woman.

Of the dissenters, Justice Thomas (only) did issue an extra opinion noting that he indeed found the Texas law "uncommonly silly", and that were he a Texas legislator, he would vote to repeal it. But that he didn't think the Court had a constitutional reason to strike it down. Someone with this position might indeed support gay marriage (although I doubt Thomas does), but is certainly not going to rule that the Constitution mandates it.

Fourth, Justice O'Connor's opinion--the only one holding that the Texas law was unconstitutional on equal protection grounds--specifically argued that gay marriage bans would not necessarily be illegal on the same grounds. As with all rights in the Constitution, the equal protection clause is not absolute. Instead, it can be overruled provided the rule in question meets a certain test, in this case the "rational basis" test: that is, the State can make a law that would seem to provide one group with unequal protections, so long as there is a "rational basis" for drawing the disctinction where the law does. O'Connor held that there was no rational basis for making a gay-straight distinction with regard to sodomy. She did not, however, imply that there was no rational basis for making the distinction when it came to marriage. Moreover, she suggested a possible rational basis, namely "to preserve the traditional definition of marriage".

Now, O'Connor's opinion does go farther in applying the equal protection clause to homosexuals than any previous decision. So does the implication (although again it was not made explicit and thus can't be counted on as precedent) that the majority would have done the same thing. So does the majority opinion's strong language about the rights and dignity of homosexuals, which is precedent.

The door has been opened further. But was not completely shut before, and it is not open nearly wide enough for gay marriage to get through. Yet.

Frankly, realistically, on big cultural issues like this one, the Court acts to ratify an emerging consensus among the states. Even its most radical decisions--like Roe or Brown--only imposed on all states a policy that was already intact in many if not most. There are as of yet no states that recognize gay marriage, and only one that recognizes gay civil unions. I think the Court will eventually find a right to gay marriage, but only after at least a handful--if not a large minority--of states have allowed gay marriage on their own and proven by their example that the ridiculous effects predicted by those who oppose gay marriage will not come to pass. (Also the example of foreign countries that recognize gay marriages will help.)

As for women in the military: I'm not aware of the history on that, but I'm pretty sure the policy was decided either within the military itself or by the military's civilian leadership in the executive branch (i.e. the President, Secretary of Defense, etc.). I'm fairly certain the Supreme Court had nothing to do with it.
 
Hmmm. I stand corrected then. I take it you read the actual 52 page briefing yourself rather than rely on msnbc and cnn to parse it for you. :)
 
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