Starbreeze take on the Ps3 vs Xbox 360 (the Darkness Int)

[kabacha]

a) You somehow decreased PS3\'s CPU flop rating and increased Xenon\'s?

b) In the context of a comparison with PS2 and Xbox, drawing a parallel and saying \'we have a GPU in Xbox 360 which has an advantage over RSX\', as if to suggest it\'s anything near the situation we had with PS2 and Xbox is highly misleading. This dev considers Xenos to have a slight advantage..others might consider RSX to have an advantage (and have in fact said so) given that both have advantages over the other in different areas, and it\'ll depend what is important to one dev.

a) you seem to forget that 218 Gflop is with 8 SPEs, 1 is disabled and 1 is used by the OS and another one is used by the OS again if needed so in terms of game performance the theoritical max is 170-180 Gflops. while Xbox 360 Xenon was always theoritical max of 118 Gflops.

b) I have yet to hear a Developer who has worked on both Xbox 360 and PS3 and says RSX has an overall advantage comapared to Xenos. Ofcourse RSX has a Clockspeed advantage but in nearly everything else especially overheads/efficiency and Shader ALU availability + flexibility the advantage is with Xenos (which ofcourse is different architecture to RSX ). To consider that they are in the overall sense equal is like saying Cell is as easy to develop for as all 6 threads on Xenon

 

[kabacha]

Your thinking that GPU-centric game design will prevail this upcoming generation is seriously flawed. There is going to be a serious paradigm shift in game development soon when consumers become tired of the same level of interaction being stapled to prettier pictures. Uncanny valley is rearing it\'s ugly head. A more CPU-centric game design process is the solution. A more powerful CPU is better than slightly more efficient GPU IMO. If the games on both consoles output nearly identical pictures, what then will be the differentiating factor? Something better contribute to those games being more interactive and immersive...graphical upgrades aren\'t going to cut it anymore. If I can run realtime simulations and have physics-based interaction occurring...along with better AI, the gameworld will be affected both visually and gameplay-wise. Consumers will definitely be happy about that. Pretty pictures are skin-deep, and they get old pretty fast. Nintendo is teaching this all over again.

What the consumer sees is what he gets. the Consumer sees the GPU processing the calculations from the CPU and outputting that to the screen. If the GPU cannot process the output of textures, the amount of objects onscreen and the shaders thrown to it to output by the CPU then it doesnt make a difference to that much of an extent if its Cell behind RSX or Xenon behind RSX. ofcourse this is also why alot of people here say the dream system is Cell + Xenos because Xenos would be able to process more onscreen.

So I would believe in this generation the GPU would be the deciding factor, followed by the API available to exploit both CPU and GPU and from the past history of Xbox, its development API is much more impressive than Sony.

 

[Diesel2]

I wonder if Starbreeze have the final dev kits or final RSX ?

 

[Titanio]

a) you seem to forget that 218 Gflop is with 8 SPEs, 1 is disabled and 1 is used by the OS and another one is used by the OS again if needed so in terms of game performance the theoritical max is 170-180 Gflops. while Xbox 360 Xenon was always theoritical max of 118 Gflops.

218Gflops is for a 7-SPU chip. If you take away one, you're talking about 192Gflops.

Xenon is 115Gflops before you factor out the OS.

Some would say more accurate figures for both chips is actually ~77Gflops and ~180Gflops respectively, anyway, given how the FPU and VMX unit apparently operate in a Cell PPE or Xenon core.

b) I have yet to hear a Developer who has worked on both Xbox 360 and PS3 and says RSX has an overall advantage comapared to Xenos. Ofcourse RSX has a Clockspeed advantage but in nearly everything else especially overheads/efficiency and Shader ALU availability + flexibility the advantage is with Xenos (which ofcourse is different architecture to RSX ). To consider that they are in the overall sense equal is like saying Cell is as easy to develop for as all 6 threads on Xenon

This developer said nothing about "overheads/efficiency and Shader ALU availability + flexibility" or an overall advantage . He said he thought it had a slight advantage, and if I had to bet, I'd say he's referring to the framebuffer there. Other devs have said that they see RSX with an advantage, some even explicitly with regard to "shader passes" etc. Both chips have advantages over the other, it comes down to what matters more to a particular developer.

 

[kabacha]

I wonder if Starbreeze have the final dev kits or final RSX ?

the final dev kits were supposed to ship in April and include Blurays, the previous Kits had DVDs because the specifications of Bluray were delayed and thus the reference system (along with the last dev kit) had Cell, RSX and DVD at GDC and Bluray just available around now

 

[kabacha]

218Gflops is for a 7-SPU chip. If you take away one, you\'re talking about 192Gflops.

Xenon is 115Gflops before you factor out the OS.

Some would say more accurate figures for both chips is actually ~77Gflops and ~180Gflops respectively, anyway, given how the FPU and VMX unit apparently operate in a Cell PPE or Xenon core.



This developer said nothing about \"overheads/efficiency and Shader ALU availability + flexibility\" or an overall advantage . He said he thought he had a slight advantage, and if I had to bet, I\'d say he\'s referring to the framebuffer there. Other devs have said that they see RSX with an advantage, some even explicitly with regard to \"shader passes\" etc. Both chips have advantages over the other, it comes down to what matters more to a particular developer.

I just checked and you are right It is 7 SPEs so I was infact pretty close 170-180 considering the real world performance will drag it down alot less.

Some would say

my social science professor once taught me that when someone says SOME would say it means gibberish until its backed by proof and I have believed his teachings because it applies in real life.

Given the apparent absentiism of branch predictions the actual real world performance would be more than likely alot less, how much less? is unknown because its upto the API and the developer whcih utilises the API to an extent that the performance is maxed out as much as possible. Even in the last generation both CPUs of PS2 and Xbox were maxxed out according to a gearbox developer I talked to and it was the GPUs which were utilised 20% in 1st generationt to max in last generation, especially the maximization of PS2 GPU which is utilising its results to have graphics on par with Xbox now. I dont believe he was reffering to the framebuffer situation as much as he was giving the layman terms opinion of overall output. the question asked was simply about output of graphics so the answer I presume would be simple as well for game consumers. As I said before It is obvious from alot of people who have the knowledge of RSX and Xenos that Xenos has an overall advantage when you take into account the cummulative advantages of both.

 

[Titanio]

I just checked and you are right It is 7 SPEs so I was infact pretty close 170-180 considering the real world performance will drag it down alot less.

my social science professor once taught me that when someone says SOME would say it means gibberish until its backed by proof and I have believed his teachings because it applies in real life.

Do a search on the boards for it, it's been discussed before. IIRC the VMX and FPU units share execution logic - if one is executing math ops, the other can only execute loads/stores/logical ops, I think.

Given the apparent absentiism of branch predictions the actual real world performance would be more than likely alot less, how much less? is unknown because its upto the API and the developer whcih utilises the API to an extent that the performance is maxed out as much as possible.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with "APIs", but I'm confident of Cell's ultimate real world efficiency, particularly as time wears on.

I dont believe he was reffering to the framebuffer situation as much as he was giving the layman terms opinion of overall output. the question asked was simply about output of graphics so the answer I presume would be simple as well for game consumers. As I said before It is obvious from alot of people who have the knowledge of RSX and Xenos that Xenos has an overall advantage when you take into account the cummulative advantages of both.

An "overall advantage", even if you want to take it as that, is not a function of advantages in every area, and would be dependent on a developer's opinion of the relative worth of different advantages either has. Thus I think it's incorrect to make some of the assumptions you are about specific areas of advantage.

It seems like we're simply raking over old territory. There's nothing in what this particular dev says that's incompatible with what's gone before.

 

[Tap In]

... There's nothing in what this particular dev says that's incompatible with what's gone before.

true.

the games will look similar on both boxes with individual dev efforts standing out above the rest.

 

[kabacha]

Do a search on the boards for it, it\'s been discussed before. IIRC the VMX and FPU units share execution logic - if one is executing math ops, the other can only execute loads/stores/logical ops, I think.

I\'m not sure what you\'re talking about with \"APIs\", but I\'m confident of Cell\'s ultimate real world efficiency, particularly as time wears on.

An \"overall advantage\", even if you want to take it as that, is not a function of advantages in every area, and would be dependent on a developer\'s opinion of the relative worth of different advantages either has. Thus I think it\'s incorrect to make some of the assumptions you are about specific areas of advantage.

It seems like we\'re simply raking over old territory. There\'s nothing in what this particular dev says that\'s incompatible with what\'s gone before.

1) That will drag the overall output down if thats the payoff from the lack of Branch predictions

2) You are confident of Cell\'s ultimate real world efficiency? is that hope or are there facts to back it up. That sounds more like arrogant hope than fact

3) The overall advantage is how much a GPU can process on screen at one time. the CPU on PS3 will process more calculations /s than Xbox 360 but if the GPU cannot translate those calculations onscreen, it doesnt make much difference then does it.

 

[Titanio]

1) That will drag the overall output down if thats the payoff from the lack of Branch predictions

I don't know why you keep on talking about branch prediction. You can maximise utilisation of a chip without branch prediction.

2) You are confident of Cell\'s ultimate real world efficiency? is that hope or are there facts to back it up. That sounds more like arrogant hope than fact

With a chip going into a closed system that doesn't appear to have any major bottlenecks, if treated well, I think it's inevitable that it'll be "well tapped" in the way most long-living consoles are.

The overall advantage is how much a GPU can process on screen at one time. the CPU on PS3 will process more calculations /s than Xbox 360 but if the GPU cannot translate those calculations onscreen, it doesnt make much difference then does it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "translate those calculations". And it's as likely that how much you can throw on screen, for example, is as much a function of CPU power as GPU power, in as far as you must simulate the interaction between those objects on the CPU, and manage them on the CPU. A dev previously has said that you'll be able to throw more onto the screen simultaneously on PS3, if that's what you're talking about when you say "translate those calculations".

 

[3roxor]

We will know much more in a couple of days. I think there will definately be a notable difference in performance between the 2 consoles.

 

[hey69]

I just checked and you are right It is 7 SPEs so I was infact pretty close 170-180 considering the real world performance will drag it down alot less.

and doesnt the Xecpu get downgraded in real world games and aplications? or does that just count for Cell?

 

[AlNom]

reply

Thank you for the insight.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Indeed. In every argument against Cell's peak values versus XeCPU, I've yet once to hear the same arguments applied to the XeCPU. What if Cell runs at 50% efficiency, and XeCPU runs at 50% efficiency? Cell has the advantage still (in numbers, which can't be directly correlated to useful work performed).

The only way XeCPU won't be behind on these numbers is if the efficiency of the two chips runs from

XeCPU = 100 % : Cell = 65% efficiency
XeCPU = 80% : Cell = 50% efficiency
XeCPU = 65% : Cell = 40% efficiency

Basically, Cell has to be pretty lousy in the efficiency department compared with XeCPU to match it in Flops terms. Anyone wanting to make that argument ought to present some evidence, notably real-world efficiency of XeCPU, especially when they make the point of asking evidence from others to substantiate their opinions.

 

[therealskywolf]

Why people still keep latching on the animation thing i don't get it, animation will depend on the developer, JUST LIKE LAST GEN.

When the guys mentions screenshots, its obvious that he is saying the game will look the same, but maybe say, it will have FPS drops in one platform and not on the other.

And you guys keep talking about physics this and physics that, world interaction, well if you could have 2 times the level of physics found in Half Life 2 wouldn't that be enough as far as world interaction goes? Whats the point besides that? Visual delight? As carmack said, you can script the rest of the stuff to have the same effect.

People act now like physics is going to change game design....no, it will just enchance stuff we have already seen. What's going to change game design is the ammount of Ram, stuff like Xbox live/Sony's hub, Revolution Controller, and ultimally Devs little minds.

Pfft, Xbox could do much more physics than the Ps2, yeah we saw alot of differences didn't we?

A.I man, A.I, this is the Area where developers should focus the most, and it saddens me as a gamer that people want devs to make physics the next big thing, no man, no! World interaction? As i've said, Half Life x2, don't need anymore than that, now give me true next gen A.I, thats the next step in interactivity.

 

[Titanio]

When the guys mentions screenshots, its obvious that he is saying the game will look the same, but maybe say, it will have FPS drops in one platform and not on the other.

And you guys keep talking about physics this and physics that, world interaction, well if you could have 2 times the level of physics found in Half Life 2 wouldn't that be enough as far as world interaction goes?

Wow.

Well I just hope the next generation over time gives you visibility as to where things can go beyond that point, if you can't imagine where it could go for yourself.

Whats the point besides that? Visual delight? As carmack said, you can script the rest of the stuff to have the same effect.

You can script to your hearts content, but the difference between scripting an actual dynamics will be pretty clear past first glance. Animation is usually just a form of scripting, but I bet something like euphoria will show a clear difference when you throw simulation into the mix.

 

[joebloggs]

I thought this quote from nAo would be quite appropriate here:

Even if you numbers can be strictly correct per se (but I haven't checked them all) theu're far from being sufficient in order to compare two or more GPUs.
If it was that easy we could write a stupid .net application in 30 minutes, plug your GPUs numbers, and in one second you would know which is the 'most' powerful, lol
I'm sure I can design so many contrived cases where RSX can spank Xenos and vice versa.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?p=724711#post724711

Xenos has advantages, RSX has advantages.

Console developers will develop to the advantages of each chip (actually more acurately they will develop to the advantages of the entirety of each console) as they have always done.

Now what these relative advantages will mean as far as the "look" of PS3 games and XBOX 360 games is yet to be seen.

We'll find out in due course...

 

[therealskywolf]

Wow.

Well I just hope the next generation over time gives you visibility as to where things can go beyond that point, if you can't imagine where it could go for yourself.



You can script to your hearts content, but the difference between scripting an actual dynamics will be pretty clear past first glance. Animation is usually just a form of scripting, but I bet something like euphoria will show a clear difference when you throw simulation into the mix.

Yeah, but that's available on both consoles. I'm talking about those smaller details that apparently is going to be OMG the huge on the PS3 over the Xbox 360. I still don't know what they will be lol But body physics based animations IS being done on both consoles, i know because i've actually seen it. But that won't change game design.

A.i.....but alas, you guys don't care about it, all people talk about is physics because apparently the Ps3 is soo good at it, congrats to sony for making the trend as it sees fit.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I can imagine it is extremely difficult for the devs to make a believable, yet not too intelligent and thus difficult A.I. in games.
A scripted A.I. in many cases can be more believable and better for playability than a highly sophisticated A.I routine.
What do the modern games need A.I. anyway? Dodge, hide, shoot, follow, find new route... it's not like chess where the game opponents need to predict your next ten moves or so and that needs heavy processing power. In a fast paced game, a chess like "slow", deep thinking A.I. would likely be completely unnoticed by the average player.

I really have no experience myself, but are the A.I. routines in games usually so complex, or do they even need to be so complex as to require a significant amount of processing power?
Maybe in a game with complex large worlds with hundreds or thousands of non player characters that are living their own lives (though I think with a selection scripted routines it would too be believable enough)... but a game like fps or a racing game... how intelligent an A.I. do they really need if the purpose is not just to demonstrate some fine A.I. programming.

I do think advanced physics simulation opens more possibilities in todays gameplay than if the same resources were used for more sophisticated A.I., unless you rather play games like Backgammon and Chess (in which case nothing beats live opponents, and we do have a solution for that already don't we ).

 

[Titanio]

Yeah, but that's available on both consoles. I'm talking about those smaller details that apparently is going to be OMG the huge on the PS3 over the Xbox 360.

Being able to do something on a platform and being able to do it as well as the other are two different things.

But I do agree that initially it's going to be "smaller" or less vital things that people spend extra PS3 power on. "nice things", "fluff" etc. like maybe cloth, hair, 'warhawk clouds' etc. However it might be dangerous to suggest that the sophisitication of games will not grow, such that this will always be the case. The "extra" power may become more fundamentally necessary for some games (exclusives) as they grow in complexity.

Not that we should write off 'fluff'. 'fluff' is nice, some great games have their experience almost entirely made of functions of 'fluff'

A.i.....but alas, you guys don't care about it, all people talk about is physics because apparently the Ps3 is soo good at it, congrats to sony for making the trend as it sees fit.

It's not a trend Sony established. The big word on everyone's lips at the last GDC was 'physics' and it hadn't much to do with Sony.

Of course I care about AI, but it's a slightly more nebulous thing..you can't draw a line between power and "good AI" either.