SquareEnix explains why FFXIII is PS3 exclusive - DVD9 not enough
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kyleb said:
Not really.
Look at it this way. Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is a massive RPG with excellent graphics that with a far more "non-linear" and "seamless world" than any past FF game could ever dream of. Oblivion on XBOX 360 takes up around 4.5gb of space even with its massive amounts of recorded dialogue. DVD9 holds 8.5gb, meaning there would be another 4gb left for movies. Do you know how much space 4gb is with Microsoft's VC-1 codec that the 360 can decode? It's enough for 2 hours of High Definition FMV or 4-6 hours of standard definition FMV.
In other words, if 2 hours of HD FMV was not enough for square, they could simply use a higher level of compression or encode the FMV in standard definition at a lower bitrate. Or, as you stated they could copy their 4.5 - 5gb "seamless non-linear world" (which is being very very optimistic for Square thinking that their world will match Oblivion's) to each disc and have 2-6 hours per disc of FMVs to tell their story.
Considering that even the most ambitious games these days don't even go past the 4.7gb first layer of DVD of actual ingame assets despite dual-layer discs being standard on XBOX for 5 years, its pretty clear that the extra space provided by a Blu-Ray disc would primarily be used for FMVs. And since FMVs are only movies, they can be encoded and compressed at whatever resolution/bitrate you like, making the whole Blu-Ray thing nothing more than PR fluff.
In the end, Sony is trying to prove to the consumer that the extra $200 they will be spending on a Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 is actually useful for games - when in reality its pretty useless for games now and in the near future. For some the PR may actually work. But I think those that have a good idea of the amount of space games take up these days are pretty aware what a crock they are peddling.
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crystalcube
Newcomer
Ruined said:
why compress if you have option to store uncompressed format ?
People keep telling use compression ..use lower bitrate .. why ?
Different technologies exist to complement each other , compression is there to adapt for smaller storage sizes.
Before DVD it was VCD , why go to DVD ? just use more compression and put it on VCD ... thats it ... is it ?
Blu-ray allows them to store more , they may still use compression but use higher bitrate but that still means more content or higher quality content or even better more high qher quality content.
If you have an option to use 40GB HDD with compression or 60GB HDD without compression , which one will you choose ?
mckmas8808
Legend
Ruined said:
What does Sony have to do with Square?
Oblivion succeeds in projecting a large scale to everything with heavily reused assets.
Oblivion's real scales comes from it's many dialogue initiated quests and not the over-world itself that players fast travel right past the majority of the time...and still log 100+ hr games. Remove the over-world, place all the cities side by side into one, and make a the caves/ruins a segmented sewer system under this mega city and you would still have a massive game as far as gameplay time goes...where the only thing removed would be constant load screens between areas.
Take a closer look at Oblivion.
How local is the attire of the citizens of each town?
Are there any creatures local to any region of the over-world?
How much different is house X than house Y in so much as geometry, textures or scale?
How much different is Tree A from Tree B in the same local area? Is the grass different or just different colors? Is the foliage local to the region or no?
Where are all the different Daedric Realms---Do Varmena and Azura dig lava, zombies, and unabated evil all around...is Oblivion where Sanquine continually hangs to "have a good time"? Where are all the fish in the ocean? With all those guards around why is there not one army? Did no no else live alongside the Ayelids...where are the ruins marking these other's existence? With all the shops around...how come no is shopping? With such beatifully clear skies...why are there no birds to dash and soar about in them?
Please don't misunderstand me. Oblivion in an EXCELLENT game and while not perfect has done enough to make most any sensible person happy. I am only saying that Oblivion is not the end of the road nor represents what's possible nor what the needs of games in the future will be. Oblivion is but one game and should not be used to define what will happen in this generation. I feel this is especially true in more ways than others but especially as far as next gen assets go. To re-iterate Oblivion reuses a great deal of it assets, but Bethesda has seemingly done so masterfully as it goes unnoticed by most...at least until in the absence of a game in the same vein on the same scale.
I'm not dissing Oblivion at all for all concerned. My only point is that I don't feel Oblivion should be used as a argument for DVD-9's validity over this generation when I feel Oblivion doesn't prove anything to that end and is really more a testament to intelligent design. ESIII:Morrowind is very much the same thing in comparison to other games that came before and after it. It succeeded in creating a sense of very large scale while at the same time reusing assets quite a bit. Only shows Bethesda is pretty good at this sort of thing.
Oblivion's real scales comes from it's many dialogue initiated quests and not the over-world itself that players fast travel right past the majority of the time...and still log 100+ hr games. Remove the over-world, place all the cities side by side into one, and make a the caves/ruins a segmented sewer system under this mega city and you would still have a massive game as far as gameplay time goes...where the only thing removed would be constant load screens between areas.
Take a closer look at Oblivion.
How local is the attire of the citizens of each town?
Are there any creatures local to any region of the over-world?
How much different is house X than house Y in so much as geometry, textures or scale?
How much different is Tree A from Tree B in the same local area? Is the grass different or just different colors? Is the foliage local to the region or no?
Where are all the different Daedric Realms---Do Varmena and Azura dig lava, zombies, and unabated evil all around...is Oblivion where Sanquine continually hangs to "have a good time"? Where are all the fish in the ocean? With all those guards around why is there not one army? Did no no else live alongside the Ayelids...where are the ruins marking these other's existence? With all the shops around...how come no is shopping? With such beatifully clear skies...why are there no birds to dash and soar about in them?
Please don't misunderstand me. Oblivion in an EXCELLENT game and while not perfect has done enough to make most any sensible person happy. I am only saying that Oblivion is not the end of the road nor represents what's possible nor what the needs of games in the future will be. Oblivion is but one game and should not be used to define what will happen in this generation. I feel this is especially true in more ways than others but especially as far as next gen assets go. To re-iterate Oblivion reuses a great deal of it assets, but Bethesda has seemingly done so masterfully as it goes unnoticed by most...at least until in the absence of a game in the same vein on the same scale.
I'm not dissing Oblivion at all for all concerned. My only point is that I don't feel Oblivion should be used as a argument for DVD-9's validity over this generation when I feel Oblivion doesn't prove anything to that end and is really more a testament to intelligent design. ESIII:Morrowind is very much the same thing in comparison to other games that came before and after it. It succeeded in creating a sense of very large scale while at the same time reusing assets quite a bit. Only shows Bethesda is pretty good at this sort of thing.
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YES. Mountain lions, for example, tend to spawn in plains; bears, in the forests.scificube said:
YES. The trees are noticibly different in the southern part of Cyrodiil vs the north, eastern foliage is noticibly different than the west.
Did you finish the Allies for Bruma/Defense of Bruma quest?
Did you pay attention to the NPCs? The NPCs do in fact visit shops.
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Adding almost every one of your requests isn't going to consume another 10 GB of space, let alone another 5 GB of space.
Creating more clothing types, or adding some more types of overworld creatures, procedurally generating more types of foliage, adding birds or fish, adding scripting so NPCs buy stuff... none of this stuff is massively space intensive.
But it will take a lot more time. More time than even Bethesda had for a game with a 4+ year dev cycle.
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scificube said:Not all of it...and a lot of thing were procedurally generated during production not in real time...such as the trees.
I didn't say it didn't look good, but it could indeed look better. This isn't the thrust of my post anyway so no need to get into that
yes this is correct, it uses speedtree, each tree is not indivually different but instead choosen from a limited pool.
im not knocking it mind, personally i think its graphically one of the top10 games to date
Responding to: aaaaa00
YES. Mountain lions, for example, tend to spawn in plains; bears, in the forests.
No they spawn everywhere. I've logged 150+ hrs. They all spawn everywhere as I've killed them anywhere and everywhere several times over. There are no resident creatures to the areas surrounding Legawin, Bruma, Skingrad, Anvil, Chorrol, Cheydinhall, Kvatch, or Bravil (think I hit got em' all) The closest thing to local creatures are the likes of the West Weald Bear or other such creatures with names denoting where they are from...but unlike the West Weald Bear these other "area labeled" creatures differ from the regular variety in name alone while the West Weald Bear is at least a different bear altogether than the regular variety (black bear). They also are gone when you wipe out their particular kind (as part of a quest and this is why they get a special area label...and they are few and far between) but the West Weald Bear is apt to spawn anywhere and everywhere as well.
EDIT: It slipped my mind. Actually the West Weald Bear is simply the Brown Bear with a new name. My bad there.
YES. The trees are noticibly different in the southern part of Cyrodiil vs the north, eastern foliage is noticibly different than the west.
I said locally. For instance in the southern portion of Cryodill you'll see the same trees and in the north, east, and while the trees will differ from the other regions you can easily see the same tree all around you in the scene.
Did you finish the Allies for Bruma/Defense of Bruma quest?
If it's in the main quest then no as I've gone about my play time trying to do everything else first.
Did you pay attention to the NPCs? The NPCs do in fact visit shops.
Yes. If you mean the scripted events of going from point A to point B at certains times of the day then yes. I've not seen any sort of random interaction at all beyond simple conversations much less the shop keepers dealing with customers purchasing goods/repairing items other than myself. Walking into and out of a building is not what I was speaking to.
Adding almost every one of your requests isn't going to consume another 10 GB of space, let alone another 5 GB of space.
I did not state that would be the case. I only pointed out more space could easily be utilized as it can. I didn't really get exotic or exhaustive yet either.
Creating more clothing types, or adding some more types of overworld creatures, procedurally generating more types of foliage, adding birds or fish, adding scripting so NPCs buy stuff... none of this stuff is massively space intensive.
You are simplifying the scope I was speaking to a good bit. I don't think it should be necessary for me expound greatly upon it so I'll be short.
-10-15 global creatures in the overworld 3-5 local to each area.
-foliage comprised of geometry; foliage which is not simply the same but a different color
-building a doesn't look like building b doesn't look like building c with the same X textures on them with little variation
-cave a doesn't look like cave b doesn't look like cave c with the same textures on everything->by extention the same for ruins and for the matter where are the "other" ruins
-each major town has folk with that town's own style of attire;townsfolk appear different vs. the same bodies with different heads
-different Daedric realms other than Oblivion that get attention;where are any of the places mentioned in books as well
-fish in ponds; people fishing for them; differrent fish and people's to local areas
-by what power does the imperial city and the septims manage and control the rest of cyrodill...where is the army...all people supposedly willing serve.
It is not difficult to lay out other areas of interest or flesh out the above.
But it will take a lot more time. More time than even Bethesda had for a game with a 4+ year dev cycle.
More time...for Bethesda which does not dictate it would be the same for everbody else. We've simply no idea what did and did not dominate during the dev cycle at Bethesda as well.
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I will re-iterate the purpose for why I said what I said. It was not to demean what Bethesda has done in any way, shape, or form. It is only to illustrate a few points. Those being that Oblivion is not nearly the pinnacle of what this generation can do or will demand...just as Morrowind was not, and secondly it is not difficult for even Oblivion to benefit from using more space on the disk media.
YES. Mountain lions, for example, tend to spawn in plains; bears, in the forests.
No they spawn everywhere. I've logged 150+ hrs. They all spawn everywhere as I've killed them anywhere and everywhere several times over. There are no resident creatures to the areas surrounding Legawin, Bruma, Skingrad, Anvil, Chorrol, Cheydinhall, Kvatch, or Bravil (think I hit got em' all
) The closest thing to local creatures are the likes of the West Weald Bear or other such creatures with names denoting where they are from...but unlike the West Weald Bear these other "area labeled" creatures differ from the regular variety in name alone while the West Weald Bear is at least a different bear altogether than the regular variety (black bear). They also are gone when you wipe out their particular kind (as part of a quest and this is why they get a special area label...and they are few and far between) but the West Weald Bear is apt to spawn anywhere and everywhere as well.EDIT: It slipped my mind. Actually the West Weald Bear is simply the Brown Bear with a new name. My bad there.
YES. The trees are noticibly different in the southern part of Cyrodiil vs the north, eastern foliage is noticibly different than the west.
I said locally. For instance in the southern portion of Cryodill you'll see the same trees and in the north, east, and while the trees will differ from the other regions you can easily see the same tree all around you in the scene.
Did you finish the Allies for Bruma/Defense of Bruma quest?
If it's in the main quest then no as I've gone about my play time trying to do everything else first.
Did you pay attention to the NPCs? The NPCs do in fact visit shops.
Yes. If you mean the scripted events of going from point A to point B at certains times of the day then yes. I've not seen any sort of random interaction at all beyond simple conversations much less the shop keepers dealing with customers purchasing goods/repairing items other than myself. Walking into and out of a building is not what I was speaking to.
Adding almost every one of your requests isn't going to consume another 10 GB of space, let alone another 5 GB of space.
I did not state that would be the case. I only pointed out more space could easily be utilized as it can. I didn't really get exotic or exhaustive yet either.
Creating more clothing types, or adding some more types of overworld creatures, procedurally generating more types of foliage, adding birds or fish, adding scripting so NPCs buy stuff... none of this stuff is massively space intensive.
You are simplifying the scope I was speaking to a good bit. I don't think it should be necessary for me expound greatly upon it so I'll be short.
-10-15 global creatures in the overworld 3-5 local to each area.
-foliage comprised of geometry; foliage which is not simply the same but a different color
-building a doesn't look like building b doesn't look like building c with the same X textures on them with little variation
-cave a doesn't look like cave b doesn't look like cave c with the same textures on everything->by extention the same for ruins and for the matter where are the "other" ruins
-each major town has folk with that town's own style of attire;townsfolk appear different vs. the same bodies with different heads
-different Daedric realms other than Oblivion that get attention;where are any of the places mentioned in books as well
-fish in ponds; people fishing for them; differrent fish and people's to local areas
-by what power does the imperial city and the septims manage and control the rest of cyrodill...where is the army...all people supposedly willing serve.
It is not difficult to lay out other areas of interest or flesh out the above.
But it will take a lot more time. More time than even Bethesda had for a game with a 4+ year dev cycle.
More time...for Bethesda which does not dictate it would be the same for everbody else. We've simply no idea what did and did not dominate during the dev cycle at Bethesda as well.
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I will re-iterate the purpose for why I said what I said. It was not to demean what Bethesda has done in any way, shape, or form. It is only to illustrate a few points. Those being that Oblivion is not nearly the pinnacle of what this generation can do or will demand...just as Morrowind was not, and secondly it is not difficult for even Oblivion to benefit from using more space on the disk media.
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I think the point of why people bring up Oblivion in these arguments is very simple:
Oblivion is an impressive game that is large in scope and fits in roughly half the available space of dvd9.
As Scificube said, it is not meant to demonstrate the pinnacle of this generation but with the available space left on dvd9 it shows that even without efficiency techniques that could be improved upon in Oblivion and make the game richer in content while still using the same amount of disc space, the team could still make the game roughly twice as detailed as it is and still fit it on dvd9.
Oblivion is an impressive game that is large in scope and fits in roughly half the available space of dvd9.
As Scificube said, it is not meant to demonstrate the pinnacle of this generation but with the available space left on dvd9 it shows that even without efficiency techniques that could be improved upon in Oblivion and make the game richer in content while still using the same amount of disc space, the team could still make the game roughly twice as detailed as it is and still fit it on dvd9.
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Oblivion had a ton of repetitive art content. If they'd have made a different texture and geometry set for each dungeon (like a Zelda or FF game) there'd have been no way they'd fit it all on a DVD9. But then again, there'd have been no way they'd have been able to make the game even if they had all the time in the world
thenefariousone
Newcomer
Well that's the funny thing about Worlds (real or virtual) is that they have tons of repetitive art content.
Just look out the window for example and you'll see a world filled with a ton of repetitive art content!
-Buildings of similar structure, shapes, size, and colour.
-Roads that look the same.
-Grass that looks the same.
-Cars that look the same, but with different colours.
-People composed of the same geometry, but with different colours.
-Most caves aren't particularly unique.
Yes, Oblivion could have a lot more unique art content, and still fit on a DVD9.
Interesting that someone mentioned "If they'd have made a different texture and geometry set for each dungeon (like a Zelda or FF game) there'd have been no way they'd fit it all on a DVD9."
Zelda with all it's "unique textures and geometry" fits on a 1.5GB disc!
Bethesda could have added more unique art to Oblivion, space wasn't the problem, cost and time to market was.
Even if you take a look at much larger worlds like those in MMOs - the space requirements don't exceed DVD9:
World of Warcraft - requires 6 GB.
Lineage 2 - requires 5 GB
Everquest - requires 6.5 GB
Just look out the window for example and you'll see a world filled with a ton of repetitive art content!
-Buildings of similar structure, shapes, size, and colour.
-Roads that look the same.
-Grass that looks the same.
-Cars that look the same, but with different colours.
-People composed of the same geometry, but with different colours.
-Most caves aren't particularly unique.
Yes, Oblivion could have a lot more unique art content, and still fit on a DVD9.
Interesting that someone mentioned "If they'd have made a different texture and geometry set for each dungeon (like a Zelda or FF game) there'd have been no way they'd fit it all on a DVD9."
Zelda with all it's "unique textures and geometry" fits on a 1.5GB disc!
Bethesda could have added more unique art to Oblivion, space wasn't the problem, cost and time to market was.
Even if you take a look at much larger worlds like those in MMOs - the space requirements don't exceed DVD9:
World of Warcraft - requires 6 GB.
Lineage 2 - requires 5 GB
Everquest - requires 6.5 GB
predicate said:Oblivion had a ton of repetitive art content. If they'd have made a different texture and geometry set for each dungeon (like a Zelda or FF game) there'd have been no way they'd fit it all on a DVD9. But then again, there'd have been no way they'd have been able to make the game even if they had all the time in the world
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