SquareEnix explains why FFXIII is PS3 exclusive - DVD9 not enough

[Arwin]

They seemed happy with the other FF's that spanned multiple disks. I don't think that this is such a finely cut sandwich. Could the space limitation be stifling to their vision? Maybe. But they will probably not come out and say, "Hey, yeah DVD9 is fine, Sony just wasted their time with Blu-Ray" because there are ramifications to their business for making that move.

Obviously not. They went from Nintendo to Sony because they wanted to put their game on CD, not cartridge, and when it was released it was clear that they really, really wanted it on CD, as it definitely didn't fit on a cartridge. The BluRay disc (which is not x2.5 a DVD9 - 54Gb/9Gb = 6Gb) offers what they need and will definitely use. If their current gen games already nearly filled up a DVD9, surely they'll have no trouble filling a BluRay (and potentially even multiple) on the next gen games.

The extra space is welcome I'm sure, and I'm all for technology moving forward. This is not an issue about whether or not Blu-Ray could be a good thing for games, but whether or not it is necessary. History tells us that it isn't, but since technology and the conventions of game development move so quickly, history may not apply.

That depends on what history you look at. History shows us you can make certain games within certain limitations, sure. But history also shows us that there are developers who will go for the larger format given the chance.

If Sony wouldn't have had BluRay and Microsoft would have had HD-DVD, you can bet that Squenix would have considered moving to the 360.

There are other issues to consider with Blu-Ray games. There are extra liscensing fees, disc cost, extra dev kit cost, and all of these factors will play out in the final result. While a big developer like Square, which has close connections with Sony, may not feel the impact of the cost, I am sure that we will see a great deal of games that will be DVD and not Blu-Ray on PS3.

Not so sure this will matter all that much. For a large part the game will be developed on a HDD. BluRay Double Layer burners and discs are already available so they can make their own fairly easily too.

The fact that there will be (and we have already seen the beginnings) a huge # off cross-platformers between Xbox360 and PS3 would indicate that DVD9 will be the prevailing format this generation. The economies of scale are not there, and history has shown us that industry goes with the lowest common denominator.

That's not quite true though, is it? Certainly the exclusive games aren't going to limit themselves to DVD9. How many games were restricted to GameCube size because otherwise they wouldn't fit on the PS2 or Xbox? For those games that are targeted to hit both the 360 and the PS3, I think we'll just have to wait and see. These days it is very easy to make certain content optional, and games can be scaled up or down much easier also.

I applaud Sony trying to give their hardware the edge, and pushing tech forward a little faster as a result, but I feel that it was probably too early. It seems like the PS3 exists for Blu-Ray, and that's not where the focus should be. Technology for the sake of technology is what it looks like to me.

It may seem like that to you, but I disagree. The 360 was supposed to have HD-DVD and only ditched it because it interfered with their strategy to launch early. The PS3, for many reasons, not just the one some people seem intent to focus on, wasn't in so much of a hurry. Not only was BluRay not quite ready, but obviously Sony also didn't have enough games to release a PS3 - very early on Sony announced that they might not go for the Spring launch if there weren't enough games.

In 2010 I expect to see HD-DVD and Blu-Ray prevailing on next-gen console systems (or 2011). But in this transition period, costs are so high that the consumer ends up paying out the rear for what feels like is a pushing of a new standard rather than the introduction of a new console.

It may well be that we've moved to online distribution exclusively, will be hard to tell, looking that far into the future. HD-DVD may well be gone by that time. The BluRay discs have already been pushed to 200Gb, so it does seem to leave some room, but it's too early to say. If Sony continues to be as successful and follows a similar plan as they did now, the PS4 won't be here before 2012.

This is just a 5 am tangent and a bit OT. But I really feel that Square would make do with whatever standard the major player was using. The fact is that limitations always exist, and space is not the greatest constraint. I'm sure FB bandwidth (which is somewhat lacking on PS3) is a bigger constraint than the DVD disc format for instance. Tradeoffs will always have to be made, but I don't see a problem with using 2 DVD's in most games.

The only games that will really benefit are from truly open-ended "sandbox" type games. But as Rockstar is showing us with GTA4, DVD is here to stay for now. I just don't think the time was right for Sony and Blu-Ray. Industry seems to agree.

Industry does not seem to agree. That's nonsense. There are plenty of quotes from developers who think that DVD9 is to small to last another 6 years for games. That there will also be developers who can or will make do with DVD9 does not negate this. If anything, it means that the industry does not seem to agree, not even with itself.

The crux of the matter is whether or not the PS3 exclusives will be able to use BluRay to improve games visibly enough to show that BluRay was a wise decision by Sony, and/or whether mulitple platform games will find a way to make use of BluRay in such a way that they can still release the game for the 360 without too much hassle also. Whether we will see more games become exclusive for PS3 because of BluRay, or not.

We'll see.

(EDIT: and I want to stress that in this discussion we're talking about reasons for Square to move FFXIII from PS2 to PS3, not why they chose PS3 over 360)

 

[pakotlar]

...
(EDIT: and I want to stress that in this discussion we're talking about reasons for Square to move FFXIII from PS2 to PS3, not why they chose PS3 over 360)

I agree with most of what you said. Some cruxes:

According to Dean Takahashi's X360 book, HD-DVD was never planned for the X360 because it was decided that the benefits of including it would not be the best decision based on their market interpretation. The launch window was not the only factor.

I am a little bit insulted that you take my industry comment as nonsense, and that assesment is narrow in interpretation. Financial analysts are skeptical of Sony's inclusion of Blu-Ray, and argue that in the end the benefits of including Blu-Ray at this stage of the game are at best uncertain. Sony is taking big risks on both cost and market acceptance of the standard. HD-DVD is not going away any time soon.

Industry does not only include developers who have the funds make enough content to fill out Blu-Ray discs. Read some developer comments about the cost of next-gen content. Space is not the main issue. That is creating enough assets to make their games graphically divergent from previous generation software.

And Blu-Ray is not 54GB's; dual-layer discs will not be used for some time, just like DVD9 was not standard until sometime after DVD. And the 200GB disc is nonsense just like Toshiba's 8 layer HD-DVD disc. You will not see this capacity for consumer use anytime soon.

Sorry for taking this thread so OT. Here is what is certain to me: Blu-Ray will enable FFXIII to be a single disc game. Thanks for reading my posts.

 

[DUALDISASTER]

I agree with most of what you said. Some cruxes:

According to Dean Takahashi's X360 book, HD-DVD was never planned for the X360 because it was decided that the benefits of including it would not be the best decision based on their market interpretation. The launch window was not the only factor.

I am a little bit insulted that you take my industry comment as nonsense, and that assesment is narrow in interpretation. Financial analysts are skeptical of Sony's inclusion of Blu-Ray, and argue that in the end the benefits of including Blu-Ray at this stage of the game are at best uncertain. Sony is taking big risks on both cost and market acceptance of the standard. HD-DVD is not going away any time soon.

Industry does not only include developers who have the funds make enough content to fill out Blu-Ray discs. Read some developer comments about the cost of next-gen content. Space is not the main issue. That is creating enough assets to make their games graphically divergent from previous generation software.

And Blu-Ray is not 54GB's; dual-layer discs will not be used for some time, just like DVD9 was not standard until sometime after DVD. And the 200GB disc is nonsense just like Toshiba's 8 layer HD-DVD disc. You will not see this capacity for consumer use anytime soon.

Sorry for taking this thread so OT. Here is what is certain to me: Blu-Ray will enable FFXIII to be a single disc game. Thanks for reading my posts.

Well first i would like to ask what makes you think HD-DVD well prevail over blu-ray or even coincide for the matter? Superior reigns over inferior, consumers are not stupid enough to buy shit when there's obviously something better even if it's by a sliver of a margin. Also, technology is on a momentum roll and although it took a while for dual-layer to become a standard, that is not the case presently.

 

[Acert93]

To interject my 2cents:

Exclusive deals via financing aside, a major investment (like a FF game) by Square-Enix requires a strong install base in all 3 territories, including Japan, to maximize sales. MS is incapable of providing such; Sony can. The fact FF has been pretty much a Playstation exclusive for nearly a decade (i.e. strong brand association and ready man fan base) is another considerable factor. Both of these are financial significant factors that transcend hardware.

I have already said my peice about game size and optical formats, so I wont rehash it here. But in my points I have always conceeded that there would be some games that would exceed the 7.5GB available on DVD9. FF games were what I directly had in mind and including a couple hours of HD CGI is going to consume a lot of disk space. Cutting CGI is not a smart move considering the franchise history or the affinity their fanbase has for CGI. HD CGI is a major selling point.

There are work arounds for the space issue. Under far more dire situations (N64; GCN) developers were able to make games work. There are all sorts of solutions (disk spanning, caching on a HDD, etc) but when push comes to shove: The PS3 offers SE the best plausible path for profitability on their investment and caters to the features they excell at and the desires of their fan base. SE has the money and time to fill 25GB of space, if not more. Thus disk space is important to them.

I did not read the interview, but that FFXIII is exclusive is not shocking. Ditto VF5 (which was on the PS2 and has a rabid Japanese install base). Whether SE could have found ways to make DVD9 work is irrelevant; at this point their job is to ensure their title sells well. That means evangelizing as many consumers as possible to the merits of their platform of choice.

 

[Acert93]

Well first i would like to ask what makes you think HD-DVD well prevail over blu-ray or even coincide for the matter? Superior reigns over inferior, consumers are not stupid enough to buy shit when there's obviously something better even if it's by a sliver of a margin.

History says you are wrong.

Further, putting aside the fact inferior products/product quality have in fact won out in the consumer market in the past, the question still remains whether HD DVD is inadequate for HD movies. You can have the best product on the market, but if it provides more than necessary (and costs more) a more affordable product that "just works" for its intended purpose it could find itself in the drivers seat.

I think Blu Ray will win out mainly due to strong support from the movie industry, most significantly exclusive support from Sony owned entertainment companies. PS3 penetration will help, as will Blu Ray being designed as writable format from the get go. Size helps as well, but probably not as much as most think.

HD DVD could put up a fight though with cheaper drives and it has the name "DVD". The average Joe knows what DVD is; High Definition DVD is a no brainer. In that regards Blu Ray has a bit of leg work left ahead of themselves.

Both of the formats are DRM laden and I would not shed a tear if either/both vaporized. I don't pirate software or media, but the protection schemes they have developers are more of a pain for consumers than hackers and pirates. If Sony/Toshiba cause enough consumer headache and we begin see "root kit" style issues we could see a backlash. Personally, I think the 2-3x jump in disk space we see over DVD is not enough to merit a $1000 movie player. I am happy waiting for something much bigger/faster (sadly HVD appears that it will be too expensive even in 2010) or all-digital formats that are not confined to a media format at all.

 

[kyleb]

According to Dean Takahashi's X360 book, HD-DVD was never planned for the X360 because it was decided that the benefits of including it would not be the best decision based on their market interpretation.

That is just another way of sayig it would have made the console cost more.

 

[aaaaa00]

That is just another way of sayig it would have made the console cost more.

And late.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Could the xbox360 external HD-DVD drive be used for game cutscenes.
Put the game on a regular DVD and all the fmv cutscenes on a HD-DVD.
If the game could be made so that it triggers the HD-DVD drive every time there is a cutscene to be displayed and switches to a HD fmv from HD-DVD.

Don't really know if that would be possible technically, but that would be a fair enough stopgap solution if games need a lot of data for fmv, multichannel music (radio stations in GTA4?) etc. that is not game code.
At least most games could be delivered on two discs (DVD+HD-DVD) and there's be no need for disc-sqwapping.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I could see MS bundling the HDDVD drive in 2008 or 2009, if HD-DVD wins the 'war', and when DVD really starts to become a limitation. That could ensure a high install base, hd-dvd drives should be cheaply available and dev's could concentrate mainly on HD-DVD games, though they'd still have to do multiple-DVD versions for people with the old systems.

The problem for MS going with HD-DVD was not just initial cost, it was threefold, there was cost and the delayed launch, but there was also the massive risk factor. If they adopt the losing format they're screwed, with a drive they can't cost reduce, and unlike sony they don't have potential revenue streams to help mitigate the risk.

So it simply didn't make sense at all. Probably one of the easiests decision the design team made.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I could see MS bundling the HDDVD drive in 2008 or 2009, if HD-DVD wins the 'war', and when DVD really starts to become a limitation. That could ensure a high install base, hd-dvd drives should be cheaply available and dev's could concentrate mainly on HD-DVD games, though they'd still have to do multiple-DVD versions for people with the old systems.

Why would they concentrate on doing HD-DVD games when the XB360 user base will be 20+ million DVD XB630's and 'however many recently sold' HDDVD XB360's? You'd be looking at maybe, if MS are lucky, equalising the DVD install base with HDDVD based machines by the end of the console's life. Why bother? I don't expect to see any HDDVD games except perhaps single disk versions of multi-disc DVD games, and maybe with some 'bonus features'. I don't think any dev will develop and HDDVD game for XB360 at any point.

 

[function]

Push comes to shove, make a multiple disk game that requires a HDD.

Put the linear elements of the game on a sequence of disks, and install none linear elements on the HDD. You could easily bung a few gigs on the HDD. Might even help drive HDD adoption if it was a good enough game.

 

[Black Dragon37]

Wonder why they released FF7 on 3 CDs back in the PS1 days instead of waiting for DVD to appear, since it seems shipping on a single physical medium is such a high priority for them.

Because there wasn't any console that offered a format higher than CD at that time.

EDIT: I think the IGN article referred to this interview. It's kinda long.

 

[Qroach]

Here's an idea. who says you have to put video on Xbox 360 games in high def? what's to stop anyone from putting regular DVD quality video in 16x9 for any 360 game?

 

[London Geezer]

Here's an idea. who says you have to put video on Xbox 360 games in high def? what's to stop anyone from putting regular DVD quality video in 16x9 for any 360 game?

Mostly, marketing. "Hi-Def Video Galore Extreme" sounds better on paper than plain FMV.
Don't get me wrong, i'll drool all over the HD FMV in FF13, but it's hardly needed.

 

[TheChefO]

Why would they concentrate on doing HD-DVD games when the XB360 user base will be 20+ million DVD XB630's and 'however many recently sold' HDDVD XB360's? You'd be looking at maybe, if MS are lucky, equalising the DVD install base with HDDVD based machines by the end of the console's life. Why bother? I don't expect to see any HDDVD games except perhaps single disk versions of multi-disc DVD games, and maybe with some 'bonus features'. I don't think any dev will develop and HDDVD game for XB360 at any point.

If MS can put hd-dvd in the box in a few years for little cost difference (<$50) even if they never release a game using the format it is still a win for the consumer to have this hd-dvd version as an option to purchase. (possibly standard if they feel the cost isn't an issue)

On the other hand, like you said, If Hddvd 360 = dvd 360 in marketshare then Developers who are already used to the larger space of Bluray could then port their games with HD fmv onto the hd-dvd version and still include the standard dvd version on the same disc.
This would keep the games 100% compatable across the board and keep the market very clear without muddying the waters with multiple versions for the same "xbox".
From what I recall, this is an option with hddvd to have a "dvd layer" on the same disc as the hd-dvd.

With additional costs this may prohibit standard hd-dvd discs but by this time (2008) these cost differences should be insignificant. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me as it goes along with Ms's montra of customization for 360. The ability to have the core experience be the same from the bottom to the top but with refinements along the way, fits in with their plan in my opinion.

 

[cthellis42]

As long as the disc swapping doesn't revert back to the "riven" scheme, it should be ok.

For reference, I now have to hurt you for making me remember the reason I was forced to abandon Riven...

 

[drpepper]

For reference, I now have to hurt you for making me remember the reason I was forced to abandon Riven...

I understand your pain.

I remember at this conference, I forget which one I think it was MacWorld, Cyan was demonstrating a DVD version of the game. All on one disc. I had a DVD drive at the time and was pissed that this wasn't marketed/released.

Oh well, i still enjoyed the games visuals.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Why would they concentrate on doing HD-DVD games when the XB360 user base will be 20+ million DVD XB630's and 'however many recently sold' HDDVD XB360's? You'd be looking at maybe, if MS are lucky, equalising the DVD install base with HDDVD based machines by the end of the console's life. Why bother? I don't expect to see any HDDVD games except perhaps single disk versions of multi-disc DVD games, and maybe with some 'bonus features'. I don't think any dev will develop and HDDVD game for XB360 at any point.

I'm not saying it will happen, just that I can envision a scenario where it does.

You say why bother... why are you assuming that the 360's life will only be 5 or 6 years? Is PS the only console that's allowed to sell and create games for 10+ years? If we envision a scenario where 360 continues to sell software until 2015, then you can envision a scenario where HD-DVD capabilities might be very attractive for developers, expecially for 3rd party dev's looking to maximize sales and minimize costs, having HD-DVD would make it much more cost efficient to port a game from PS3 to 360 in 2010+

If HD-DVD wins the format war I can see this happening potentially, why not? the drives themselves will be dirt cheap, hd-dvd will be the standard HD format, it makes absolutely no sense to stick with an add-on drive when you can just bundle it in the SKU for cheap.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm not saying it will happen, just that I can envision a scenario where it does.

You say why bother... why are you assuming that the 360's life will only be 5 or 6 years? Is PS the only console that's allowed to sell and create games for 10+ years? If we envision a scenario where 360 continues to sell software until 2015, then you can envision a scenario where HD-DVD capabilities might be very attractive for developers, expecially for 3rd party dev's looking to maximize sales and minimize costs, having HD-DVD would make it much more cost efficient to port a game from PS3 to 360 in 2010+

If HD-DVD wins the format war I can see this happening potentially, why not? the drives themselves will be dirt cheap, hd-dvd will be the standard HD format, it makes absolutely no sense to stick with an add-on drive when you can just bundle it in the SKU for cheap.

So what about people like you that brought the console without the HD-DVD drive?

 

[AlNom]

I remember at this conference, I forget which one I think it was MacWorld, Cyan was demonstrating a DVD version of the game. All on one disc. I had a DVD drive at the time and was pissed that this wasn't marketed/released.

It is a dvd with the 10th anniversary release (Myst, Riven, Myst III ).