Spinoff - A discussion on the nature of Genius in game development*

[archangelmorph]

Mod : A spin-off from the Epic interview thread that never really got going.

Anyways, I'm a big Epic fan. If I had a PS3 and home, I'd spend all my home time hanging out in Epic's room. Gears is the best game on 360 imo. I think Cliffy is pretty much a gameplay genius.

From one game..??

Gears is a very good game IMO because of great/appealing art/atmosphere & very very well polished gameplay..

It's not doing anything new really but what it does it does very very well..

 

[Nesh]

I am not sure how much of a genius he is if all Epic does is shooters. I dont see the variety and talent I see from other developers. It is a recycling of a certain style of gameplay mostly.

 

[Gubbi]

I am not sure how much of a genius he is if all Epic does is shooters. I dont see the variety and talent I see from other developers. It is a recycling of a certain style of gameplay mostly.

That's like saying Polyphony Digital suck because all they do is GT racing sims.

If you perfect a genre, and Epic has, you deserve to be credited accordingly.

Cheers

 

[DJ12]

I don't think Epic has perfected the genre at all.

Their engine might be the best thing since sliced bread (well, of all the others that you can pay to use), but their games aren't the best.

The comparison to PD isn't really right as they do things that no one else can match really pushing the hardware they work on, this isn't the case with Epic, they are often bettered on many fronts.

 

[Gubbi]

Their engine might be the best thing since sliced bread (well, of all the others that you can pay to use), but their games aren't the best.

Millions and millions of Gears of War players disagree with you

Cheers

 

[Nesh]

Well I am one of these gamers. Great/awesome game but It is certainly not the best or anything unique.

That's like saying Polyphony Digital suck because all they do is GT racing sims.

If you perfect a genre, and Epic has, you deserve to be credited accordingly.

Cheers

There are much more things you can find in a every GT game that show their great talent and dedication in every iteration than you can find in an Epic game. Besides Polyphony Digital is spending too much time on every GT sequel and it is literally impossible to expect them to make more games. When they finish one GT they move to the next sequel with no time to spare otherwise it wont be ready on time. A few of other of their efforts though such as Omega Boost show that they are capable at producing various types of awesome experiences if they want to (edit: and if they had the time).

Epic has made numerous IPs (edit: the recent years) that were very similar.

edit: also wanted to add that PD is intentionally/strategically used for the Gran Turismo series solely.

 

[Neb]

The comparison to PD isn't really right as they do things that no one else can match really pushing the hardware they work on, this isn't the case with Epic, they are often bettered on many fronts.

Different devs have different goals, and want to use different type of rendering techniques to enhance their game. How can you really translate what is done on UE3 engine and how that translates vs PD game engine?

I mean one does mapping on textures, one does not etc and that can go on for a long list. It's all about tradeoffs and some devs might find billboard trees to be unacceptable and wants 3D trees. Well that will mean sacrifices on other stuff for x game.

 

[Neb]

Well I am one of these gamers. Great/awesome game but It is certainly not the best or anything unique.



There are much more things you can find in a every GT game that show their great talent and dedication in every iteration than you can find in an Epic game. Besides Polyphony Digital is spending too much time on every GT sequel and it is literally impossible to expect them to make more games. When they finish one GT they move to the next sequel with no time to spare otherwise it wont be ready on time. A few of other of their efforts though such as Omega Boost show that they are capable at producing various types of awesome experiences if they want to.

But they are still only making car games right? Each one with better graphics and improvments in physics model, handling, car list etc etc. Unreal -> UT -> UT2003 -> UT2004, are some game from EPIC with new material, new units, better physics, better graphics and new gameplay elements.

Epic has made numerous IPs that were all very similar.

Similar in type of game (FPS games) but how does that differ from PD that has made several IP's that are quite similar too (GT -> GT5).

Improvments:
Gameplay elements
Graphics
Sound
Weapons/units/cars
Physics
Size
etc etc, massive similarity!

 

[Nesh]

But they are still only making car games right? Each one with better graphics and improvments in physics model, handling, car list etc etc. Unreal -> UT -> UT2003 -> UT2004, are some game from EPIC with new material, new units, better physics, better graphics and new gameplay elements.



Similar in type of game (FPS games) but how does that differ from PD that has made several IP's that are quite similar too (GT -> GT5).

Improvments:
Gameplay elements
Graphics
Sound
Weapons/units/cars
Physics
Size
etc etc, massive similarity!

Difference is PD is intentionally used to work solely on the GT series due to the large nature of the project. They do not produce other games because they do not have the time to. Once one GT ends they move to the next GT game. It is an operational function to remain on track.

Epic on the other hand got stuck on the same genre the last decade even if they try another IP. It is similar in style and gameplay to the other game.

The differences you described for each Unreal is the expected improvements you find in every sequel's surface no matter the genre or developer. Even the latest Turok has all these improvements over the old Turok games yet it does not express the talent of the developer (not that Epic is not a great developer or that is as bad as the Turok ones). The work PD does is of a different dimension and can not be compared with in such a superficial manner

 

[DJ12]

Millions and millions of Gears of War players disagree with you

Cheers

Millions might, but also millions of them would also agree it's not that good.

Different devs have different goals, and want to use different type of rendering techniques to enhance their game. How can you really translate what is done on UE3 engine and how that translates vs PD game engine?

Quite easily, against the competition they have from others in their chosen genre.

PD are really in a league of their own on most fronts (AI was lacking previously, not sure what it's like now as I have yet to play GT5), are Unreal games really that much better than anything else? I think their recent success has been more down to ease of use and adaptation than any technical brilliance.

Clearly they are a very talented bunch, but I don't think they are "genius's"

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you perfect a genre, and Epic has, you deserve to be credited accordingly.

I think you'd be hard pushed to justify that viewpoint. Gears was a big seller, but it wasn't perfect. UT3, coming later than Gears, hasn't been wildly hailed as perfect. And in terms of sales, H3 outsold Gears. In terms of subjective gameplay, some will argue that R:FoM was the better game than Gears.

They've had a huge success in the FPS sector, but I wouldn't say they'd perfected it by any stretch. They more just capitalised on following where the industry was heading in mainstream options, creating the right products at the right time including middleware. I see little reason to call them geniuses - their achievements across platforms haven't been exceptional AFAIK. Okay, I haven't followed them closely, but an inability to understand and maximise performance of the consoles doesn't really smack of genius to me! They've used conventional techniques to create conventional games with the typical genre evolutions you'd expect. Successful? Yes. Shrewd? Yes. Geniuses? Not in my book.

 

[hoho]

And in terms of sales, H3 outsold Gears.

I wonder if H3 sold better by simply being better game or because of the massive hype it got. I certainly wouldn't say that sales number always shows how good a game is.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Neither would I, but Gubbi used it as part of his argument, so within his own metrics we can point out Gears isn't Top Dog.

 

[DJ12]

Gears was massively hyped, probably more so than Halo. Halo already had it's market/fanbase where as Gears had nothing.

 

[AlNom]

Gears was massively hyped, probably more so than Halo.

Are you kidding? What about the string of Believe commercials, the live-action shorts directed by Neil Blomkamp, the Legendary Edition SKU, the Xbox 360 Halo Edition... And then the New York event... MS PR continually iterating that it will be the biggest media launch in history, and then bragging rights of a couple million copies sold within a couple weeks.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Difference is PD is intentionally used to work solely on the GT series due to the large nature of the project. They do not produce other games because they do not have the time to. Once one GT ends they move to the next GT game. It is an operational function to remain on track.

Not correct.

PD has made a motorcycle game and a shooter in between GT games.

PD are really in a league of their own on most fronts (AI was lacking previously, not sure what it's like now as I have yet to play GT5), are Unreal games really that much better than anything else?

PD is in a league of its own on most fronts?

Certainly not, GT games has been lacking on very many fronts, except for graphics and most of the time the driving feeling (not necessary for realistic physics, waaaay to much grip has been a problem up until GT5

And thus, while i personally dont like epic as much as i like PD, Epic has allways been in the front graphically, and they have allways pushed the envelope in some way or another with their games, just as much PD.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Gears was sold to a smaller user base and was a new IP. Comparing it to Halo is not entirely fair. That said, I'm not all that impressed with Epics track record for games. I think Gears is their best game to date and it kinda failed for multi-player.

Suggesting that epic isn't talented because their games are derivative is a bit silly. New genre's aren't exactly being invented every day, and its probably harder to stand out in a crowded genre than it is a narrower field. It's not really a secret that epic makes shooters and game engines, they'd probably get more grief trying something different than going back to the well.

oh and if you want to sell game engines, making a 2d fighter probably isn't going to get it done

 

[zed]

Gears was massively hyped, probably more so than Halo. Halo already had it's market/fanbase where as Gears had nothing.

halo3 is easily the most pre-marketed/hyped gamed in history i even saw it on cans of drink
gears of war perhaps would be number2,
makes me afraid of the marketing we will subjected to with gears2

True. So why does everything have to be some kind of shooter?
Why does everything have to be an action movie? You know? Come on, because they sell.

um, no they dont necessary, actually if u look at the top earners of the box office theres a far broader range of genres than with videogames, just goes to show how immature gaming still is

 

[Nesh]

Not correct.

PD has made a motorcycle game and a shooter in between GT games.

Which happened to be only the rare exceptions. With the motorcycle game being a part of something they considered to include in a GT game, and Omega Boost which was an extremely short game

Also my previous post

There are much more things you can find in a every GT game that show their great talent and dedication in every iteration than you can find in an Epic game. Besides Polyphony Digital is spending too much time on every GT sequel and it is literally impossible to expect them to make more games. When they finish one GT they move to the next sequel with no time to spare otherwise it wont be ready on time. A few of other of their efforts though such as Omega Boost show that they are capable at producing various types of awesome experiences if they want to (edit: and if they had the time).

 

[dobwal]

I think right now Gears has had the biggest impact of this generation on the gameplay front.

Covers systems have been done before, but Epic implemented a highly praised system with a highly successful IP and influenced a lot of game developers. Thus, you have a lot of new generation games that make fighting from cover an important component of the gameplay.

Cover mechanics went from a feature that weren't overly important to the point now where a bevy of current and future games make it impractical to go through their game without a heavy use of their cover mechanic.

We basically gone from cover system being most limited to tactical FPSes to just about any genre that makes use of a shooting mechanic.