*spin-off* Feasibility of Water Cooling Radiator Setups

[Shifty Geezer]

From my own finding over the years.

With an ambient of 20c.

- Water temp would be around 25-26c after the unit has been on for a while.
- Water temp rises by 3-4c on top of that during load
- Difference in water temp before it enters and exits the radiator is only 3-4c
- CPU block base raises anything up to 40c during load.

What would the same temperatures be on a standard HS+F setup?

One simple question about this situation... Just how exactly is a water cooler setup going to be maintained on the consumer item? Remember, it has to last at least 5 years and quite possibly 10 years.

That single fact there makes all the rest of the discussion moot.

*Part of the standard maintenance of a H20 loops is a full flush of the liquid, with an optional cleaning cycle flush, then replacement of liquid. This should be done at least once a year, with some enthusiasts preferring to do this 6 months or less.

Hmmm. I can't see why a hermetically sealed unit can't be trouble free. Designed for fixed hardware using the necessary materials including the option of rigid plastics, and using distilled, deionised water (or maybe some mineral oil?) it should be possible to create a sealed unit with no loss or wear/corrosion. My concern would only be the pump unit. If using a standard pump then there'll be wear. If using a peristaltic pump, the tubing would have to last all those years which could be hard to ensure. If a reliable 5 year pump system can't be ensured then you have problems. Although maybe they could do like this gen and have every console break within two years so people go get new ones?

 

[MfA]

5 years lets say 50% duty cycle is a MTBF of 22K ... manufacturers of watercooling pumps claim quite a bit more than that.

 

[almighty]

What would the same temperatures be on a standard HS+F setup?

I honestly couldn't say as I've never put a temp on a air cooler to find out.

I would imagine though that it would be a lot higher then water.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What I don't understand is how the air temp coming out the back can be lower unless you have a higher fan rate. That is, with a cooler radiator, to remove the same amount of heat energy into the air you'll need a higher airflow, either needing more fan or more radiator area. A simple heatsink that gets hotter will lose more heat into the air. I don't see how a water cooling system can effectively disipate hundreds of watts of heat if it's only a few degrees hotter than ambient unless there's a stonking radiator.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I would imagine though that it would be a lot higher then water.

I can imagine it would have rainbows shoot out of it!

 

[Sxotty]

I have to agreee with almighty. Water cooling makes way more sense in console environment than in a PC since everything in the console is in the same place. A PC system has to be flexible for different cases/motherboards etc... Anyway whoever talked about phase change stuff was right too. That could actually be done in a console, but would require a certain orientation. (This side up). Liquid cooling has the advantage that the consumer can put the console anyway they want. IF they used the chassis as a heat sink it would be pretty nice too.

 

[almighty]

What I don't understand is how the air temp coming out the back can be lower unless you have a higher fan rate. That is, with a cooler radiator, to remove the same amount of heat energy into the air you'll need a higher airflow, either needing more fan or more radiator area. A simple heatsink that gets hotter will lose more heat into the air. I don't see how a water cooling system can effectively disipate hundreds of watts of heat if it's only a few degrees hotter than ambient unless there's a stonking radiator.

Company's spend millions on these radiator designs, It's a science in itself.

You can have a radiator with high flow fans and it'll give worse performance then it would do if it slower fans.

Fin density, Tube rows, Thickness... All of these are key factors and a flaw in one area can drag performance right down, Get all 3 perfectly balanced though and you'll get amazing performance.

 

[specwarGP2]

There's no reason at all why they couldn't water cool everything.

What about the labor required to put a system together and install it? That alone would be enough to take water cooling off the table IMO

 

[almighty]

What about the labor required to put a system together and install it? That alone would be enough to take water cooling off the table IMO

Who said they have to built them?

You can buy kits for PC that are completely assembled and all the user has to it is screw it in, No cutting tube, Filling, Bleeding the air..... Just simple plug and play.

 

[BRiT]

So you're proposing that for next-gen consoles the user forks over $500 for the raw parts only to get it home and then having to assemble the system himself?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Company's spend millions on these radiator designs, It's a science in itself...Get all 3 perfectly balanced though and you'll get amazing performance.

Science, yes, but not magic. I would like it exaplined how a water based system at 5 degrees above ambient can more efficiently dump heat into the air versus a heatsink at 20 degrees above ambient.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So you're proposing that for next-gen consoles the user forks over $500 for the raw parts only to get it home and then having to assemble the system himself?

He's saying there are plug-and-play parts that an assembly line could drop into a console same as a heatsink. I dont see why that should be so hard. Design a hard-case water system, effectively a box, with a copper surface mount for the chips, and bolt it into the case as part of the ordinary assembly. This would depend on how the water system could be manufactured, which all depends on whether it can do the job. Almighty's enthusiasm doesn't come with the facts to support it creditably, and water cooling needs someone to present real explanation of the numbers involved thus proving it's a workable solution that should be investigated. As I understand it, the basis of watercooling is to absorb heat more effectively such that it can be dissipated over a large raditor, but as a result it needs a large radiator as this dissipation isn't very effective (fundamental limit of ultimately cooling via air). This is the key issue IMO. If you can't add a large enough radiator, you'll get worse cooling overall than using a heatsink that gets hotter and running air over it to take it out of the system. Or the water will get hotter and you'll have a damned hot radiator on your box! It looks simpler to me to design a HSF solution around a considered approach to airflow throughout the system. PS3's HSF was well engineered. Sony got caught out by lead-free solder and by cheaping out on the thermal paste (dimwits!). If they'd invested a little more in high quality thermal paste, I reckong they'd have saved a fortune on servicing.

 

[almighty]

So you're proposing that for next-gen consoles the user forks over $500 for the raw parts only to get it home and then having to assemble the system himself?

Someone forgot to read the thread

 

[almighty]

He's saying there are plug-and-play parts that an assembly line could drop into a console same as a heatsink. I dont see why that should be so hard. Design a hard-case water system, effectively a box, with a copper surface mount for the chips, and bolt it into the case as part of the ordinary assembly. This would depend on how the water system could be manufactured, which all depends on whether it can do the job. Almighty's enthusiasm doesn't come with the facts to support it creditably, and water cooling needs someone to present real explanation of the numbers involved thus proving it's a workable solution that should be investigated. As I understand it, the basis of watercooling is to absorb heat more effectively such that it can be dissipated over a large raditor, but as a result it needs a large radiator as this dissipation isn't very effective (fundamental limit of ultimately cooling via air). This is the key issue IMO. If you can't add a large enough radiator, you'll get worse cooling overall than using a heatsink that gets hotter and running air over it to take it out of the system. Or the water will get hotter and you'll have a damned hot radiator on your box! It looks simpler to me to design a HSF solution around a considered approach to airflow throughout the system. PS3's HSF was well engineered. Sony got caught out by lead-free solder and by cheaping out on the thermal paste (dimwits!). If they'd invested a little more in high quality thermal paste, I reckong they'd have saved a fortune on servicing.

Shifty have you ever water cooled anything?

This isn't a pre assembled loop and look how it all fits, A pre-built all in one would offer the same or more performance and be smaller!!

See Here

And for the record, There's no such thing as a water cooling loop being hotter then air, Unless your pump breaks

 

[Rangers]

What if there was some sort of leak in the tubing or at the joints, and water leaked onto circuit boards and the like? Would it raise the fire/shock hazard?

Even if it's just one in a million that would probably make it a non starter. PC enthusiasts are understood to take a certain amount of risk with their tinkering, a family console not so.

 

[almighty]

What if there was some sort of leak in the tubing or at the joints, and water leaked onto circuit boards and the like? Would it raise the fire/shock hazard?

Even if it's just one in a million that would probably make it a non starter. PC enthusiasts are understood to take a certain amount of risk with their tinkering, a family console not so.

I've had fluid leak when my PC was running and no sparks started to fly, It just shut down.

I dried it out and it started back up and worked fine!

 

[almighty]

Xbox 360 will fully integrated water cooling using separate parts which would take up more space then an 'all in one' system

As you can see it can EASILY be done with existing console cases and big separate parts, So integrating it into a box that could be designed for water cooling and using a small mass produced all in one unit should not be difficult to achieve.

Temperatures taken from a 'Chipped' Xbox 360 for the temperature readings when playing a game when water cooled

I've not found the temps on an air cooled 360 but I imagine they would be a lot higher then the above temperatures. Intact I would expect idle temperatures on an air cooled 360 to be higher then these water cooled load temperatures.

 

[AlphaWolf]

There's actually many contingencies they would need to look at in a console. The chance of water leaking and damaging something other than the console, is one of them. ie the water leaks out of the console and fries someones $2500 receiver. The risk might be low, but these are things they need to look at if they are going to ship a product like this to the masses.

 

[almighty]

There's actually many contingencies they would need to look at in a console. The chance of water leaking and damaging something other than the console, is one of them. ie the water leaks out of the console and fries someones $2500 receiver. The risk might be low, but these are things they need to look at if they are going to ship a product like this to the masses.

You use apples technique that they use on there top end water cooled G5's, Add fluid absorbing sponge into the bottom of the case so if there is a leak it's absorbed quickly.

You could always mount the main board upside down so that if there is a leak it'll drip onto the bottom of the case ( Were the sponge comes in ) and not onto the main board

So personally I think it's established that

1. It can easily fit into a case
2 Looking at the above temperature readings it performs much better then air cooling as well when used in the same space

 

[AlphaWolf]

well it would need to be on the bottom and the side if they want to stick with the current console design.