Sony's console platform policy

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chaphack said:
Still there is some point that Sony should strive for a standard, not just a global standard, but a standard within themselves. UMD/DVD/BR/Vaios/Clies/PSX/PSP/Memcard/Memstick/etc. Many technological differences imho. Maybe CELL will do something about it. It be better for their wares and their BB ideals.

Do you know what you are talking about ?

What do you want by randomly spit some names and blame Sony for not making a standard ?

VAIO is the brand for Sony's notebook. CLIE is the brand for Sony's PDA, Memory Stick is the brand for Sony's flash memory devices.
 
chaphack said:
Still there is some point that Sony should strive for a standard, not just a global standard, but a standard within themselves. UMD/DVD/BR/Vaios/Clies/PSX/PSP/Memcard/Memstick/etc. Many technological differences imho. Maybe CELL will do something about it. It be better for their wares and their BB ideals.

not sure what you are driving at here. all those are seprate product from the sony group.

if there is an evolving standard it should be on the console development end (API abstractions etc...).
 
i think DeadMeat would love next playtation to be as different from each other as current PC graphics cards (SEE: 20% performance increase)

well sorry buddy but at the end of the day they want to cram a certain amount performance out of "things". if that means changing architecture every 5 years, then tough...

PC Graphics cards also have changed qite a bit in 5 years.. maybe not as much as PS2 to PS3, but that doesnt make those "better". in fact it's unarguable that the most innovative and extreme technology always end up to be better than conservative technology progress.

if technology needs a "kick" every 5 years, then i welcome extreme progressive technologies.
 
notAFanB said:
chaphack said:
I think he meant, Sony should have CELLuslise the PSP. It be better for their mega CELLplans.

nope he's clearly pissed that Sony have no coherent (read legacy/modular) development tools across genetrations. and by implication Japanese hardware design seems to be his pet peeve.

what he avocates looks alot like the PC GFX paradigm with DX as an dev enviroment.

in short maybe consoles could benefit being more like PC's albeit with a 4-5 yrs upgrade cycle.

Or maybe they wouldn't.
Not being totally tied down by backwards compatibility is a HUGE advantage.

Entropy
 
Squeak said:
Fafalada said:
It's hybrid UMA (PSP)

It is? Then what about all those large chunks of eDRAM here there and everywhere?
Could you elaborate?

just think of the eDRAM as stract space/massive caches. there would probably be lots of data duplication as things are fetched from main memory.

using the eDRAM as seperate 'pools' (as VRAM for texturs) of memory would entails lots of shifting data back and forth which complicates matters.
 
The PlayStation market not being standardized like the PC's is both a curse and a blessing with regard to their platform design policy. A curse in that Sony must rebattle for success every five-year console cycle, but an indulgent blessing for their engineering ambitions in that their designs need not conform to any legacy limitations.

I'd guess the radical changes to their designs result from dissatisfaction over the previous one's failures and a desire to implement newer, more effective paradigms. After seeing their PS2 outperformed in texturing and image quality by older and less expensive tech like Dreamcast, and given the nature of the market and the fact that they feel they can get away with creating an entirely new development environment every generation (especially given their leadership position), they obviously would try again with a newer architecture for PSP instead of the failed design of PS2.
 
Lazy8s said:
The PlayStation market not being standardized like the PC's is both a curse and a blessing with regard to their platform design policy. A curse in that Sony must rebattle for success every five-year console cycle, but an indulgent blessing for their engineering ambitions in that their designs need not conform to any legacy limitations.

I'd guess the radical changes to their designs result from dissatisfaction over the previous one's failures and a desire to implement newer, more effective paradigms. After seeing their PS2 outperformed in texturing and image quality by older and less expensive tech like Dreamcast, and given the nature of the market and the fact that they feel they can get away with creating an entirely new development environment every generation (especially given their leadership position), they obviously would try again with a newer architecture for PSP instead of the failed design of PS2.


again, "outperformed in texturing and image quality" comes down to more than pure hardware. in fact, many progressive scan games on PS2 look miles better than the best VGA-enabled games on DC. the decision of not including VGA output on ANY of the newer consoles (Xbox and GC don't even have pro-scan hee in europe, so by your logic, DC beats them in IQ... :? ) had more to do with politics and stupidity rather than on hardware. all the newer consoles are more than capable of producing better graphics and IQ than DC.
just let it rest in peace for god's sake. we've been through this like hundreds of times.and by the way i was gonna say.
every manufacturer has COMPLETELY changed architecture every generation of consoles. Nintendo's done it, Sega's done it, Sony's done it...
i dont see why now that Sony is doing what everyone else has been doing for, like, EVER, it becomes a problem. oh wait, Deadmeat opened the topic, then it must be because Sony is DOING SOMETHING WRONG!! :rolleyes:
 
The PlayStation market not being standardized like the PC's is both a curse and a blessing with regard to their platform design policy. A curse in that Sony must rebattle for success every five-year console cycle, but an indulgent blessing for their engineering ambitions in that their designs need not conform to any legacy limitations.

again agreed, only that this is not confined to the Playstation era and is indicative of japanese consoles (with the possible exception of PC-engine).
 
It is? Then what about all those large chunks of eDRAM here there and everywhere? Could you elaborate?
Hybrid UMA is the term Sony used to describe the "failed" design mentality of PS2. Dedicated units working in smaller pools of memory which are consequently feeding off a single bigger memory chunk.
Diagram shows PSP following the exact same design mentality more or less to the letter. You can expect VFPU to have its own memory pool also even though it was so far omited from spec.
VRam : main mem ratio is different, but unless I'm reading this wrong, the GPU mainly feeds off the main ram as well.

The diagram doesn't show this but I figure sound chip is sharing Media processor's memory (rather then directly using mainmem), which is only another similarity to PS2 though. :p
 
london-boy:
again, "outperformed in texturing and image quality" comes down to more than pure hardware.
Hardware is a definite factor. Whether other factors are political, demographical, or spiritual, it doesn't matter because the end result of weaker performance is still just as much of a reality.
in fact, many progressive scan games on PS2 look miles better than the best VGA-enabled games on DC.
Odd wording there since "look miles better" is anything but a fact. You can compare performance properties like more polygons, simpler texture effects, etc., but how you view the importance of those properties in relation to one another in the final picture is always an opinion. For instance, if you were especially sensitive to alaising, even a lone property like an advantage in mip-mapping could be huge to your perception.
the decision of not including VGA output on ANY of the newer consoles (Xbox and GC don't even have pro-scan hee in europe, so by your logic, DC beats them in IQ... )
A pretty Dreamcast game in VGA, ripe with its accurate color and tangibly solid due to its proscan, does beat out the IQ of GC and Xbox games outputting interlaced. Not sure what's so hard to believe about that. You're making it seem like GC and Xbox games run high levels of additional FSAA and anisotropic filtering here.
had more to do with politics and stupidity rather than on hardware.
With PS2's design, one vital part was the use of embedded RAM, way back in 2000. The choice to go with such high-performance yet expensive RAM meant that not much of it could be used. This resulted in 4MB of display memory, not allowing for as robust a frame buffer to be as routinely used as on Dreamcast (448 vs 480, field rendering, etc.) and preventing the possibility for proscan - and so VGA, consequently - with the games where they had to field-render. That part is very much hardware related.
all the newer consoles are more than capable of producing better graphics and IQ than DC.
With the mentioned hardware limitations of PS2 resulting in its library where far lower than 10% of its games are proscan and native-VGA compatible and where even mip-mapping is often a rare commodity, versus Dreamcast's library where proscan/native-VGA is standard, PS2 clearly isn't more than capable in those regards.
just let it rest in peace for god's sake. we've been through this like hundreds of times.
I'm just stating facts and logic as it relates to this topic with which we form our judgements on the issue. Misinformation didn't become any more valid with time, only more accepted in revisionist history.
and by the way i was gonna say.
every manufacturer has COMPLETELY changed architecture every generation of consoles. Nintendo's done it, Sega's done it, Sony's done it...
i dont see why now that Sony is doing what everyone else has been doing for, like, EVER, it becomes a problem.
It's not necessarily a problem, just one way of doing things which most of the other manufacturers have also adopted as has been pointed out. It's only that Microsoft too has shown advantages to its strategy of adopting standardization, so the pros and cons of both philosophies can be discussed.
 
Lazy8s said:
Hardware is a definite factor. Whether other factors are political, demographical, or spiritual, it doesn't matter because the end result of weaker performance is still just as much of a reality.

Odd wording there since "look miles better" is anything but a fact. You can compare performance properties like more polygons, simpler texture effects, etc., but how you view the importance of those properties in relation to one another in the final picture is always an opinion. For instance, if you were especially sensitive to alaising, even a lone property like an advantage in mip-mapping could be huge to your perception.

OK, so me saying "looks miles better" is somehow less of a fact than u saying "After seeing their PS2 outperformed in texturing and image quality by older and less expensive tech like Dreamcast". and that is because all u say is FACT and all i say is not...?

A pretty Dreamcast game in VGA, ripe with its accurate color and tangibly solid due to its proscan, does beat out the IQ of GC and Xbox games outputting interlaced. Not sure what's so hard to believe about that. You're making it seem like GC and Xbox games run high levels of additional FSAA and anisotropic filtering here.

we're discussing "hardware capabilities" here aren't we? the hardware is "CAPABLE" of running games in progressive scan. in fact they (all newer consoles) can run better looking games than most DC games. the fact that the "option" of VGA is not on those consoles does NOT make the hardware LESS CAPABLE. it's a software issue.


With PS2's design, one vital part was the use of embedded RAM, way back in 2000. The choice to go with such high-performance yet expensive RAM meant that not much of it could be used. This resulted in 4MB of display memory, not allowing for as robust a frame buffer to be as routinely used as on Dreamcast (448 vs 480, field rendering, etc.) and preventing the possibility for proscan - and so VGA, consequently - with the games where they had to field-render. That part is very much hardware related.

again, if "some games" can run in progressive scan, then "all games" can potentially run in progressive scan. the hardware is there, the option is not. the hardware is capable of doing it, the software doesnt support it. is it so hard to grasp?

With the mentioned hardware limitations of PS2 resulting in its library where far lower than 10% of its games are proscan and native-VGA compatible and where even mip-mapping is often a rare commodity, versus Dreamcast's library where proscan/native-VGA is standard, PS2 clearly isn't more than capable in those regards.

read above.

I'm just stating facts and logic as it relates to this topic with which we form our judgements on the issue. Misinformation didn't become any more valid with time, only more accepted in revisionist history.

again, the fact that u say it doesn tmake it a fact. what u r saying is pretty much illogical, therefore not a fact.

It's not necessarily a problem, just one way of doing things which most of the other manufacturers have also adopted as has been pointed out. It's only that Microsoft too has shown advantages to its strategy of adopting standardization, so the pros and cons of both philosophies can be discussed.

Microsoft has the luxury of being a monopoly in the PC market. of course they are going to use their proprietary standard of graphics libraries, which i must say has come a long way since it was first introduced.
that doesnt make microsoft "better" or in a "better position". it simply makes things easy for them. well buckle up boy, cuz "EASY" is rarely "GREAT". Sony dont want to be "good enough". they want it all.
 
Fafalada said:
It is? Then what about all those large chunks of eDRAM here there and everywhere? Could you elaborate?
Hybrid UMA is the term Sony used to describe the "failed" design mentality of PS2. Dedicated units working in smaller pools of memory which are consequently feeding off a single bigger memory chunk.
Diagram shows PSP following the exact same design mentality more or less to the letter. You can expect VFPU to have its own memory pool also even though it was so far omited from spec.
VRam : main mem ratio is different, but unless I'm reading this wrong, the GPU mainly feeds off the main ram as well.

The diagram doesn't show this but I figure sound chip is sharing Media processor's memory (rather then directly using mainmem), which is only another similarity to PS2 though. :p

I do not understand.. if it is a "failed" approach, why does Cell seem to follow a VERY similar Route ( GRPs <- Local Storage <- e-DRAM <- External Yellowstone DRAM ) ?






;)
 
Lazy8s:

Lazy8s said:
Hardware is a definite factor. Whether other factors are political, demographical, or spiritual, it doesn't matter because the end result of weaker performance is still just as much of a reality.

You did say "After seeing their PS2 outperformed in texturing and image quality by older and less expensive tech like Dreamcast" - which isn't quite correct. If anything, perhaps in average, games are being outperformed * in IQ by the older hardware - not the hardware. You don't messure the potential of a hardware by the average or the weakest performer but the best, as we wouldn't want to blame the console manufacturer for sloppy/lazy programming would we? ;)

Lazy8s said:
With PS2's design, one vital part was the use of embedded RAM, way back in 2000. The choice to go with such high-performance yet expensive RAM meant that not much of it could be used. This resulted in 4MB of display memory, not allowing for as robust a frame buffer to be as routinely used as on Dreamcast (448 vs 480, field rendering, etc.) and preventing the possibility for proscan - and so VGA, consequently - with the games where they had to field-render. That part is very much hardware related.

Funny, I guess my linuxkit running in proscan is hoax then. :?
I wonder what's up with all the other games then, namely Primal, the Getaway and others... :rolleyes:

* edit: didn't see the consequently - read next reply below.

Lazy8s said:
With the mentioned hardware limitations of PS2 resulting in its library where far lower than 10% of its games are proscan and native-VGA compatible and where even mip-mapping is often a rare commodity, versus Dreamcast's library where proscan/native-VGA is standard, PS2 clearly isn't more than capable in those regards.

AS said, in average, in those regards. Hardly the hardware's fault though, but development issue of the #1 selling console. It's position naturally will of course give the console more developers and their strategy of developing with "quantity" in mind, rather than "quality", or in other words, low-budget and rushed games.

Edit.
 
Panajev2001a said:
I do not understand.. if it is a "failed" approach, why does Cell seem to follow a VERY similar Route ( GRPs <- Local Storage <- e-DRAM <- External Yellowstone DRAM ) ?






;)

Panajev2001a, I might be wrong, but I suspect he was speaking of "failed" approach because many developers refuse or choose not to use the hardware as it was ment to.

Fafalada, please clarify?
 
no no no
fafalada was being sarcastic because someone mentioned the ps2 was a "failed" design....

but yeah the fact that devs havent been using the hardware properly can be seen as a failed "approach", not failed design. as i said many times, the hardware was pretty cool, it's the libraries and developers support from sony that seems to be the reason for this supposed "failure".
 
london-boy said:
but yeah the fact that devs havent been using the hardware properly can be seen as a failed "approach", not failed design. as i said many times, the hardware was pretty cool, it's the libraries and developers support from sony that seems to be the reason for this supposed "failure".

Actually, here I agree with Lazy. We've had many 'cool' hardwares up until today, many of which were very powerful, but no one could tap them really. I think when no one can tap the system to gain good results out of it that do the hardware justice, we can speak of "failed" design. In regards to PS2, I wouldn't quite call it that, because many developers approach it with little thought, just to cash in easy money with low-budget and rushed titles. Any #1 console will have that problem, so calling it a failed approach because of that wouldn't be fair.
 
Phil said:
Actually, here I agree with Lazy. We've had many 'cool' hardwares up until today, many of which were very powerful, but no one could tap them really. I think when no one can tap the system to gain good results out of it that do the hardware justice, we can speak of "failed" design. In regards to PS2, I wouldn't quite call it that, because many developers approach it with little thought, just to cash in easy money with low-budget and rushed titles. Any #1 console will have that problem, so calling it a failed approach because of that wouldn't be fair.


i guess it all comes down to semantics. i think we're saying the same thing in different ways.
loads of developers complained about PS2 at the beginning because the hardware was completely new AND no one told them "what to do with it"...
the HARDWARE was extremely advanced for its time (not perfect but what is perfect anyway) however the problem was that no proper documentation was provided on how to tap its power. hence the crappy titles.
it's not the hardware's fault. it's the libraries, or lack of thereof, and documentation's fault.
 
...

To Panajev

I do not understand.. if it is a "failed" approach, why does Cell seem to follow a VERY similar Route ( GRPs <- Local Storage <- e-DRAM <- External Yellowstone DRAM ) ?
Because an egotistic who refuses to admit his mistakes is in charge of its development.
 
Re: ...

DeadmeatGA said:
To Panajev

I do not understand.. if it is a "failed" approach, why does Cell seem to follow a VERY similar Route ( GRPs <- Local Storage <- e-DRAM <- External Yellowstone DRAM ) ?
Because an egotistic who refuses to admit his mistakes is in charge of its development.


AGAIN with the "one man behind everything" conspiracy theory... :LOL: :rolleyes:


BECAUSE this man never had a BIG team of experts and software developers telling him what they wanted on PS2...

BECAUSE this single man single-handedly constructed the whole of the PS2 architecture in his bedroom ALL BY HIMSELF WITHOUT LISTENING TO ANYONE!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Deadmeat, u sound better in the PC graphics boards, cause u clearly know very little about consoles.
 
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