Some things to chew on, and get off my chest

jandar said:
congrads Natoma...

marriage is a bonding of love. Its a beautiful thing. My wedding pictures show me with a grin from ear to ear. Im suprised my jaw didnt break.


see, even some of us Bush Backers can be compassionate as well.

Thank you. It's unfortunate that the man you support isn't quite so, uhm, compassionate as he would like others to believe. :)

jandar said:
(I grew up with one of my favorite Uncles being ostracized by my family due to his preferences which hurt him deeply, theres no room for hate)

That's one reason it took me so long to come out to my family. I was deathly afraid of this. And especially when I was a teenager, I lived in terror of being tossed out on the street. Neither of these came to pass, but the fear was very strong for me, especially given the number of gay teens and adults who are ostracized, or kicked out of their homes.
 
John Reynolds said:
I gave this example to my work fundies. We have a gay couple who live down the street from us. They're law-abiding citizens who pay their taxes, take nice care of their home, and are always friendly. Both are educated, one is a lawyer. How does it hurt their neighbors or society in general whether they just live together or are in a marriage recognized by the state of OH?

Well I had a headache the morning after Rosie got married. So who can really say how it (gay marriages) will affect us? ;)
 
Blastman said:
My reference/analogy to the burglar was a roundabout way of stating that the fact that people impose morality on other people doesn't make them intolerant. But do I think homosexual relationships are morally wrong? Yes.

Doesn't it depend on how far that imposition extends to though? (Yes it's a fine line for sure).

I have an exercise for those on the right and it should be the very same standard that they apply against pro-environment issues. That is, what proof do they have that homosexual marriages would hurt society?
 
Gay marriage and another opinion on it

Ty said:
Blastman said:
My reference/analogy to the burglar was a roundabout way of stating that the fact that people impose morality on other people doesn't make them intolerant. But do I think homosexual relationships are morally wrong? Yes.

Doesn't it depend on how far that imposition extends to though? (Yes it's a fine line for sure).

I have an exercise for those on the right and it should be the very same standard that they apply against pro-environment issues. That is, what proof do they have that homosexual marriages would hurt society?

I want to say a few things here... I don't know Natoma or whatever his name is. I am against gay marriage I am quite conserned about it. I have worked over where Natoma works and lived around NYC for 6 years and then moved out to Hollywood in 1999. I am not homophobic or whatever a lot of people say now days for people that don't agree with the gay community.

I live my life around, hate the sin but not the sinner.

There has been a ton of gay propaganda lately and it appears to me that they are buying politicians votes and they already own the colleges and they are really spreading the liberal word.

I do not like how the gay community is playing the race card. They want to be acceptable so bad to the point of playing to the race card because they know thier lifestyle will eventually be accepted by almost everyone.

Gay to me is exactly the same thing as me cheating on my wife and calling that a lifestyle, then trying to make that lifestyle a legit way of life thats taught in colleges and making it into a power movement.
A sin is a sin is a sin and they are trying to get around that by playing a race card and people are falling for it.

The unfortunate thing is that posting on what I feel and from what I see in my life and from what I have read from the Bible and such could be considered a hate message and I don't hate anyone and that really disturbs me.

The reason I don't agree to Gay marriage is on several reasons, as a marriage is made from God as a union between a man and woman and legally as well. Thats not the only reasons though is because it will start with marriage and then on to adopting kids and then you will have special rights if you are gay.

Every day from billboard when I go to work, to saturation of gays in hollywood (where its almost all gay now), I come home from work talking about gay this and gay that and then I watch movies like Tuscan Sun or whatever that movie was with gay propaganda to ER with the lesbian and her girlfriend having a baby its just getting way out of hand now.

If gay people want to sin fine, let them do what they need to do, but I don't want to have propaganda shoved down my throat wherever I go and I don't want to feel like I have to accept it either.

Sorry for the long rant, its just getting really anoying now and I had to put out my frustration about it and how people just accept just about anything now.

Also please don't misunderstand this post, its not to start anything nor is it about hate. I didn't really say much about it before, but its really getting anoying to me. I don't hate gays or anyone else and I don't think anyone should and I am also against violence against gays or anyone else for that matter.
 
Proforma, first off welcome to the forums. I noticed that you have only two posts, so I hope your stay will be long and enjoyable. :)

Now, I completely understand your feelings regarding gays and lesbians and your religion. I grew up in a deeply religious family, and in a church that became my secondary family for 18 years. I was baptized of my own request when I was 7, and experienced what the pentecostal subsect of christianity says is the infilling of the holy ghost. So I understand why you feel you need to call gay men and women sinners.

However, we live in a country that values the separation of church and state. Why? In order to make sure that the whims of one religion do not impinge upon non-believers. For what its worth, I do not believe in christianity anymore. Am I then subject to the laws and rules that govern your religion? Or am I subject to the laws and rules that govern this nation? Are you subject to the laws and rules that govern Islam? What about Hinduism? Buddhism? Some other sect of Christianity?

"Sin" is a loaded religious term referring to ungodliness, but it has nothing to do with the legal governance of our country. Think what you might about gay and lesbian couples, but "Sin" will not hold water in a court of law as a reason to discriminate.

The institution of marriage in the legal sphere has long been separate from the institution of marriage in the religious sphere. For what it's worth, our legal morality is defined not by the bible or quran or any other religious text. Not by personal belief and opinion, but by the Constitution of this country. According to what the Constitution says, there is no legal reason to deny gays and lesbians the right to enter into a civil marriage recognized by the government. If your church in particular does not wish gays and lesbians to be married, then that is your church's prerogative. But the church does not control the state, nor vice versa.

We're not asking for "special rights" at all Proforma. We're asking to be able to receive the same rights that heterosexual couples are given when they come together. We're not asking for any rights above and beyond those. That isn't special rights. It's equal rights.

Now as for gay "saturation." Here are the shows on television today with a heavy gay presence. Will & Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and Six Feet Under. Shows like Boston Public had a minor "gay" storyline that played for a couple of episodes and ended. In movies, gay "saturation" is even less. Now maybe you feel we're "taking over the world" because of your own discomfort with who we are as men and women which amplifies and distorts your feelings. :)

p.s.: The reason why I brought up race is because of the fact that it is true that 50 years ago, people were stridently opposed to interracial marriage on the grounds that it was sinful, against god's creation, and that they "didn't want to see that around here." Do you honestly believe in some segregated town that they would have really liked to have seen a black and white mixed couple walking down the street hand in hand? Do you not think it would have made a lot of people angry during those days?

So angry and upset with the way the world was going that they enacted the Anti-Miscgenation Laws. They had just as powerful a "gut reaction" to interracial mixing as you have to gay and lesbian couples today. Back in those days, the "will of the people" was moved to criminalize that kind of relational love. Today the "will of the people" is being moved to enact discrimination in our laws and to the hope of some, our constitution.

The situation is the same, whether some would rather not look at it or themselves as having religiously motivated bigoted stances regarding gays and lesbians. 50 years ago it was racially motivated bigoted stances regarding interrial couples. In either case, it breaks down to one description. Bigotry.

I'm sure the anti-miscegenists did not think they were bigoted or that what they believed was wrong or biased against a particular subgroup. But that doesn't mean that they weren't. The same applies to those who would deny gay and lesbian citizens their rights as american citizens for what amounts to nothing but religious discrimination and bigotry. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but frankly it's the bottom line truth.
 
I know it's OT, but just interested how would you describe the "entecostal subsect of christianity says is the infilling of the holy ghost" and how do they create it? now that you are not a believer anymore.

-- hmmm -- I know it's for a separate thread, but I couldn't resist my curiosity...
 
Druga Runda said:
I know it's OT, but just interested how would you describe the "entecostal subsect of christianity says is the infilling of the holy ghost" and how do they create it? now that you are not a believer anymore.

-- hmmm -- I know it's for a separate thread, but I couldn't resist my curiosity...

It's kind of like being in a convulsive trance. That's the best way I can really describe it.
 
Rugor said:
Ahh, but I do accept that you feel that way. I just don't agree with it.

You have every right to dislike, disapprove of and disagree with gay marriage. However, others have the right to disagree with you. Your disapproval of it is perfectly fine as long as you do not force those who don't agree with you to abide by your beliefs.

Epicstruggle already pointed out your position is not consistent. But I’ll post my answer too.

I’m not forcing you to abide by my beliefs per se. I’m saying you can’t act on them. Which is why I made the analogy about the burglar. If a burglar just thinks stealing is ok that’s fine. Just thinking it doesn’t affect anyone (I’m not going to melt his brain.:D) The problem arises when the burglar acts on those beliefs. My point was that if the burglar acts on those beliefs you would take action to stop him because you believe the contrary position ie…stealing is wrong. You would stop him from acting on his beliefs. You would be imposing your moral agenda on him -- in your words making him… “abide” … by your beliefs.

Same think for homosexuality. You can think it is alright all you want, the problem arises when you act on those beliefs. You’re basically saying it’s ok for me to think homosexuality is wrong -- but that I can’t act on my beliefs. Yet you can not only think it’s ok -- but act on your beliefs.

If me saying you can’t act on them is forcing you to “abide” by my beliefs then by this logic you are doing the same thing to me. You’re telling me how to act. You’re imposing on me the rule…. … “abide by my rule” … which is that I should have no say in the conduct of fellow citizens. It’s ok for me to think homosexuality is wrong but I can’t act on it. Not a consistent position. By your rules you’re being intolerant of my beliefs.

The argument usually takes the form of … “don’t impose your moral views on me because I won’t impose moral views on you .” Which of course is rubbish. The fact is people (you) will impose their morals and beliefs on someone else be it personally or through the government i.e. … criminal code, bylaws, voting … … etc. etc. Even the traffic bylaws are statements of rules of conduct in society about what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. And they will be imposed on you whether you agree with them or not. . It’s not if morals will be imposed on society it’s about what those morals will consist of.
 
Natoma said:
The events of the past few weeks in San Francisco and Massachusetts have placed a light on a topic that many people in this country either don't understand well, don't wish to discuss, or feel fervently one way or another and wish to push it to the forefront of all debates. I speak of course on gay marriages.

We've heard the debate that this is a civil rights issue, not special rights. That this is something intrinsic to all americans, nay human beings, and that gay men and women in loving relationships should be allowed to openly engage in this human activity.

We've heard the debate that this is will do nothing but defame and destroy the institution of marriage as marriage has always been between a man and a woman. That marriage is for child rearing and the continuation of the species; the bedrock of society and religion.

I recently wrote a form letter to my senators Clinton and Schumer, as well as my district congressional representative Weiner. The following is the letter as it read when I sent it to Senator Clinton:

Natoma said:
I am writing to voice my strong opposition to amending our nation's constitution to make bigotry the law of the land. I speak regarding the proposed amendment to ban gays from marrying. Never in our history have we ever discriminated against a minority group by writ of our constitution. To the opposite effect, the constitution has been used to uphold the rights of minorities.

What is now occurring in the Congress is abominable and disgraceful. I say to you Senator Clinton that this must be fought, and fought hard. I hope you will take up this fight in the Congress. This disgrace of our constitution must stop.

50 years ago it was not popular to support Interracial Marriage, and yet our constitution was never amended to block it. 50 years ago, Anti Interracial Marriage positions were defended as necessary to protect "the natural order of things." Virginia's Anti-Miscegenation Law specifically stated: "All marriages between a white person and a colored person shall be absolutely void without any decree of divorce or other legal process."

Does that sound familiar to the laws being bandied by your anti-gay co-workers? This is history repeating itself. Despite the public opposition to interracial marriage, in 1948, the California Supreme Court led the way in challenging racial discrimination in marriage and became the first state high court to declare unconstitutional a ban on interracial marriage. Now the Massachusetts Supreme Court has taken up the fight in challenging discrimination in marriage directed toward gay men and women.

Fight for what's right Senator Clinton. Fight against this amendment.

I brought up points that I've felt the pro-gay constituency that have been on television, even the lawyers, have not brought up en masse. To look at the current situation is to see a mirror of the legal problems in the 1940s and 1950s. There were those on the right who felt that marriage was between members of the same race and nothing more. That to acknowledge marriage between members of the same race as valid would be to undermine god's creation in separating the races on different continents. That it would be the end of creation and society, this abomination of man's work.

The law on the books at the time stated precisely:

Virginia Racial Integrity Act said:
If any white person intermarry with a colored person, or any colored person intermarry with a white person, he shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by confinement in the penitentiary for not lass than one nor more than five years.

One Virginia judge who ruled against the eventual claimants in the landmark supreme court case, Loving vs Virginia, stated, in concordance with the Virginia Racial Integrity Act and Virginia's main Anti-Miscegenation Law:

Judge who convicted the Lovings of Miscegenation said:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.

The history of our nation is riddled with instances of exclusion because some in the majority have felt that those in the minority were not worthy of the institutions and freedoms they held dear. It is my belief that if Americans are reminded of their history and how what is going on is nothing but the continuation in civil disobedience and fighting for civil rights, our cause will eventually prevail.

The supreme court in striking down the Anti-Miscegenation Laws in the landmark Loving vs Virginia 1967 court case stated:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival....

To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

In the present day, those on the right attempt to deny this fundamental freedom, this fundamental right of marriage, on an unsupportable basis of sexual orientation because of the harm it would cause heterosexual families. That heterosexual families marry to procreate and advance our species. Unfortunately that falls apart when one looks at the fact that millions of people who get married aren't getting married to have children. They're getting married to spend the rest of their lives together. There is no statute that forbids the marriage of a man and a woman unless they proclaim that children will be the result. Nor is there a statute that claims that if a marriage has not resulted in children, it is null and void. If this were the case, we might have no right to the institution of marriage because it would be indeed just for child rearing. But of course, this is not the reality of the situation.

Returning to the legal aspect of what is occurring today in Massachusetts and San Francisco, I find it tickling in a sense that President Bush and his supporters have labeled the ruling body in Massachusetts as "activist judges," and Gavin Newsom as "law breakers." I prefer to look back upon history and take a different interpretation on this matter.

If President Bush had been President in 1967, it stands to reason that he would have called the Supreme Court of this nation's decision in Loving vs Virginia the act of "activist judges." And yet, today we do not see their decisions in Loving vs Virginia as such, but as judges upholding the rights of the minority against the tyrannical will of the majority, as writ in the constitution.

If President Bush had been President in 1955 when Rosa Parks decided she would not relinquish her seat on the bus and move to the back as the law stipulated, it stands to reason that he would have called her a "law breaker." And yet, today we do not see her actions as such, but as a woman who helped spark over a decades worth of prominent civil disobedience.

Laws across this country forbade eating establishments to serve blacks at their lunch counters. And yet blacks and whites banded together in mass civil disobedience in order to break the bonds of the sacrosanct laws passed by the majority. What Gavin Newsom is doing in San Francisco, what Victoria Dunlap did in New Mexico, what Mayor Richard Daley is doing in Chicago, and other individuals around this great nation of ours are doing, is civil disobedience in order to effect change. Those that spit upon them as law breakers would do well to remember how change has been enacted in our nation through the act of civil disobedience, and remember that this is in fact a historically accepted and legitimate maneuver.

Why did I have the urge to write this? Yesterday, I found out that a small town in upstate New York by the name of New Paltz, 75 miles north of New York City to be exact, will begin issuing marriage licenses to gay men and women, courtesy of Mayor Jason West. When will this occur? Today, Friday, February 27th, 2004.

My boyfriend edgar and I have been in a committed relationship for over 3 years now. We met in October 2000 by a random occurrence and began our romantic relationship with one another on November 28th, 2000. In late December 2000, we purchased committment rings (gold with a centered platinum band) with the inscription "Edgar & Malik Together Forever Always." We moved in together on June 30th, 2001, and have been living together since then. We have had our relational ups and downs during this time, as all do. Yet we have done nothing but grow stronger and even more committed to one another.

Yesterday I jubilantly called Edgar on his cellphone and informed him of the news regarding New Paltz. He was busy getting his new cellphone and cellphone plan from Sprint, so he kind of brushed me off. I was understandably rather hurt by this at the time considering what it meant for us as a couple, but I figured that we'd talk about it when he got home.

About 45 minutes later, the doorbell rang and who should I find on one knee, with a single red rose and a box of chocolates?

Of course, I said Yes to the eternal question.

To say that we feel a renewed and deeper committment to one another after taking another small step toward our goal of life long recognized love for one another is an understatement. To those that would take marriage for granted, especially heterosexuals such as Britney Spears, Elizabeth Taylor, and the 50% of heterosexual marriages that fail in this nation year after year after year, I say to you, take a step back, and really understand what it is that you are doing. What it is that you are saying to one another. What it is that you are promising to one another.

Marriage is a sacred institution. But it is only as sacred as the people who enter into it make it. To that end, I can find no better official outlet to express my devotion to Edgar, and his devotion to me.

We will be married, and I for one look forward to that day with great anticipation and respect. 50 years from now, this entire fight will be as antiquated as the fight for interracial marriage seems now.

Long live this great country of ours.

Fucking fags :rolleyes:
I guess the only thing to show for gay marriage is the shit on your dick
 
linthat22 said:
Fucking fags :rolleyes:
I guess the only thing to show for gay marriage is the shit on your dick

You had to quote that entire post just for this unintelligent drawl? And here I thought you were going to write something meaningful while I was scrolling down. :?
 
Blastman said:
Rugor said:
Ahh, but I do accept that you feel that way. I just don't agree with it.

You have every right to dislike, disapprove of and disagree with gay marriage. However, others have the right to disagree with you. Your disapproval of it is perfectly fine as long as you do not force those who don't agree with you to abide by your beliefs.

Epicstruggle already pointed out your position is not consistent. But I’ll post my answer too.

I’m not forcing you to abide by my beliefs per se. I’m saying you can’t act on them. Which is why I made the analogy about the burglar. If a burglar just thinks stealing is ok that’s fine. Just thinking it doesn’t affect anyone (I’m not going to melt his brain.:D) The problem arises when the burglar acts on those beliefs. My point was that if the burglar acts on those beliefs you would take action to stop him because you believe the contrary position ie…stealing is wrong. You would stop him from acting on his beliefs. You would be imposing your moral agenda on him -- in your words making him… “abide†… by your beliefs.

Same think for homosexuality. You can think it is alright all you want, the problem arises when you act on those beliefs. You’re basically saying it’s ok for me to think homosexuality is wrong -- but that I can’t act on my beliefs. Yet you can not only think it’s ok -- but act on your beliefs.

If me saying you can’t act on them is forcing you to “abide†by my beliefs then by this logic you are doing the same thing to me. You’re telling me how to act. You’re imposing on me the rule…. … “abide by my rule†… which is that I should have no say in the conduct of fellow citizens. It’s ok for me to think homosexuality is wrong but I can’t act on it. Not a consistent position. By your rules you’re being intolerant of my beliefs.

The argument usually takes the form of … “don’t impose your moral views on me because I won’t impose moral views on you .†Which of course is rubbish. The fact is people (you) will impose their morals and beliefs on someone else be it personally or through the government i.e. … criminal code, bylaws, voting … … etc. etc. Even the traffic bylaws are statements of rules of conduct in society about what is acceptable behavior and what isn’t. And they will be imposed on you whether you agree with them or not. . It’s not if morals will be imposed on society it’s about what those morals will consist of.

Blastman, there are people in this nation today who believe that blacks and whites should still be separate and unequal and that women should be in the home and subservient to their husbands. That is their moral belief. Is that morality of theirs legal? No. Our legal morality is the Constitution of the United States, and there is a difference between that morality and personal morality.

I personally, morally, am against abortions for example. But unless I'm prepared to have the government tell me what I can and cannot do with my reproductive life, I feel that I cannot impose that restriction upon women. So I support their rights to have abortions fully and completely.

Do you see the difference?
 
Blastman, there are people in this nation today who believe that blacks and whites should still be separate and unequal and that women should be in the home and subservient to their husbands. That is their moral belief. Is that morality of theirs legal? No. Our legal morality is the Constitution of the United States, and there is a difference between that morality and personal morality.

Likewise around the world. So what?

I personally, morally, am against abortions for example. But unless I'm prepared to have the government tell me what I can and cannot do with my reproductive life, I feel that I cannot impose that restriction upon women. So I support their rights to have abortions fully and completely.

Do you see the difference?

No. I see that you have a moral objective but comply with a behavioral standard for a vague and unrepresented reason. Essentially what you are doing is silently condoning a behavior because you fear the ramifications of your choice to act on your moral perception. You must not feel to strongly about abortion being morally wrong.

The fact remains the government already does dictate through law illegal sexual practices (IE child molestation, rape, etc etc). also, late term abortions have been outlawed.
 
Legion said:
Blastman, there are people in this nation today who believe that blacks and whites should still be separate and unequal and that women should be in the home and subservient to their husbands. That is their moral belief. Is that morality of theirs legal? No. Our legal morality is the Constitution of the United States, and there is a difference between that morality and personal morality.

Likewise around the world. So what?

What exactly is it that you're saying "likewise around the world" to? I'm concerned with the legal morality of this nation, i.e. the constitution. So what exactly are you getting at?

Legion said:
I personally, morally, am against abortions for example. But unless I'm prepared to have the government tell me what I can and cannot do with my reproductive life, I feel that I cannot impose that restriction upon women. So I support their rights to have abortions fully and completely.

Do you see the difference?

No. I see that you have a moral objective but comply with a behavioral standard for a vague and unrepresented reason. Essentially what you are doing is silently condoning a behavior because you fear the ramifications of your choice to act on your moral perception. You must not feel to strongly about abortion being morally wrong.

The fact remains the government already does dictate through law illegal sexual practices (IE child molestation, rape, etc etc). also, late term abortions have been outlawed.

Again, I can't say I'm sure exactly sure what you're trying to say. How does any of what you've written tie into the fact that I'm able to divorce my personal feelings on a matter from the legalities?
 
Well I am sure that there is a better thread for this...but since Gay Marriage has been brought up in here I thought I would post it here. This comment has made me absolutely furious:

"Same sex marriage is likely to spread through all 50 states in the coming years," Frist said. "It is becoming increasingly clear that Congress must act."

Just makes me so mad that someone could be so closed minded.
 
Blastman, the intolerance is yours.

To take your example of theft: Burglars do not think breaking and entering is morally right. If they did they wouldn't care if anyone stole from them. They would also be lobbying to decriminalize theft. Unfortunately, that's not the case and your argument sinks with it.

Theft and most other crimes of that nature have to do with people doing things to you, or to someone who does not want to take part in it.

If too gays get married without your knowledge, it wouldn't affect you in the slightest. But if one of them broke into your house and stole your computer it would affect you. Regardless of the moral issue, gay marriage is not going to have a significant effect on your life either way. The people it will most affect are gays, and only those who would choose to marry, and the people involved in disbursing spousal benefits. And even for those people it would be nothing greater than changing the conditions for acceptance and denial. Worst case, it would be the situation of an Aryan Nations member who was a bus driver and had to carry African-American passengers.

Theft has a direct effect on people who do not wish to be involved, gay marriage does not have that same kind of effect.

Having said all that, I'm glad to see you're defending your position with words, rather than stooping to the insults some people have chosen.
 
While there's a lot of rehashing old arguments in this thread, I may as well add my own. ;)

Rugor said:
Blastman, the intolerance is yours.

To take your example of theft: Burglars do not think breaking and entering is morally right.

Not so black and white.

Ask a homeless person if he thinks it's morally OK to break into a million dollar mansion and steal food to feed his kids. I'm willing to be that more oftern than not, they'd say "it's OK". (Heck...you might even say it's ok).

If they did they wouldn't care if anyone stole from them. They would also be lobbying to decriminalize theft. Unfortunately, that's not the case and your argument sinks with it.

Many (including myself) would say that the heavily progressive tax system we have is in fact legalized theft. And the "have nots" are constantly harassing the "haves" to tilt the system even further, with more and more taxes being paid by the "haves", and having it ditributed to the "have nots". So it exists already.

If too gays get married without your knowledge, it wouldn't affect you in the slightest.

This is your opinion. The fact is, many people do believe that it will have an overall negative impact on society.

The best analogy that immedately comes to mind is drug use. Who cares if my neighbor shoots up in the privacy of his own home? (And as with gay marriage, there are two sides to the issue, for and against.) Well, we have drug laws for a reason, that being the belief that drug use has negative impacts to society as a whole. Whether or not there is an obvious, immediate, "direct connection" to any one individual.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
This is your opinion. The fact is, many people do believe that it will have an overall negative impact on society.

Yes, those against the state recognizing gay marriages believe it will harm society. Pro-environmentalists believe that drilling off shore in California will harm the environment. Why do we (both sides are guilty) allow for one standard but not another when it suits us? For this topic, where is the proof that gay marriages will harm society?

I think you once mentioned that liberals feel but conservatives think (apologies if I'm remembering/paraphrasing incorrectly!) but I don't see how conservatives aren't feeling here with this subject matter.
 
hat exactly is it that you're saying "likewise around the world" to? I'm concerned with the legal morality of this nation, i.e. the constitution. So what exactly are you getting at?

The fact that many people in many nations feel the same as these bigoted individuals do you have mentioned. Your view on morality is largely opinion i would say.

Again, I can't say I'm sure exactly sure what you're trying to say. How does any of what you've written tie into the fact that I'm able to divorce my personal feelings on a matter from the legalities?

That we already do dictate as a society what behaviors are wrong/unjust. So when you suggest that all arguments against gay marriage are some how inherently immoral i wonder as to your moral reasoning. I would much rather address these issues then dismiss them.

I am sorry Natoma, i just don't agree that all people who don't share our views on sexuality are all bigots.
 
Ty said:
Joe DeFuria said:
This is your opinion. The fact is, many people do believe that it will have an overall negative impact on society.

Yes, those against the state recognizing gay marriages believe it will harm society. Pro-environmentalists believe that drilling off shore in California will harm the environment. Why do we (both sides are guilty) allow for one standard but not another when it suits us? For this topic, where is the proof that gay marriages will harm society?

I think you once mentioned that liberals feel but conservatives think (apologies if I'm remembering/paraphrasing incorrectly!) but I don't see how conservatives aren't feeling here with this subject matter.

Same reason we allow for abortion but charge a man or a woman responsible for the death of an unborn child (when not related to the choice of the mother) with murder.
 
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