So who's thinks their predictions were right about the nV40?

I must admit I'm a little peeved about the anisotropic filtering situation myself, hopefully the old modes will be available somehow. I guess, like, brilinear though it boils down to "if the competition can take shortcuts and get away with it, why can't we?". Hopefully end-users will get the choice, my position on IQ ever since the whole IQ debate started has been give the end-user the choice in the control panel and let them decide.

Regarding the ongoing debate about the cooling, I think you are all being a little silly, frankly. Wait until the retail cards appear, then judge the cooling solutions on them. Its not like you will be taking the reference design home with you (unless the card vendor is exceptionally lazy).
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Correct...but MSAA is typically not GPU limited AFAIK, but bandwidth limited.
You'd think so, right? That's why I find this, this, this and this a bit confusing. The performance drop is almost the same for the half-bandwidth 9500PRO.

I don't have an explanation, but that's the way it is for R300.
 
Mintmaster said:
Joe DeFuria said:
Correct...but MSAA is typically not GPU limited AFAIK, but bandwidth limited.
You'd think so, right? That's why I find this, this, this and this a bit confusing. The performance drop is almost the same for the half-bandwidth 9500PRO.

I don't have an explanation, but that's the way it is for R300.

Well, the first one is running 640x480! You're probably significantly CPU limited even in higher AA modes. We need to find a case where, for example, at 1600x1200, both cards are GPU limited with no AA...then crank up the AA and see what happens.
 
My predictions were wrong. The card is faster than I thought it would have been. What it really shows is how much of a POS the NV3x series of cards really are.
 
PaulS said:
Ailuros said:
I was living under the impression that NV45 is what the R423 is for ATI, but that's just probably me.

You're right, but the traditional definition of the NVx5 parts has been the refreshes, so people still use NV45 when talking about the fall refresh, rather than the PCI-E part.
I was pretty sure that it would be both the first high-end native PCI-E part, and the fall refresh, since current rumors point to it being designed on a .11 low-k process.
 
Colourless said:
What it really shows is how much of a POS the NV3x series of cards really are.
It also shows what a good design the r3xx was/is. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
 
nelg said:
Colourless said:
What it really shows is how much of a POS the NV3x series of cards really are.
It also shows what a good design the r3xx was/is. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Yes, that is one of the best ways I can think to compliment the NV40...it reminds me a lot of the R3xx core. This is a good thing.

The sooner nVidia takes the NV3x cores out back and shoots them, the better for everyone. ;)
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Yes, that is one of the best ways I can think to compliment the NV40...it reminds me a lot of the R3xx core. This is a good thing.

Though you would wonder why Ati couldn't implement SM 3.0 in the R420 (as always, assuming that it's true) if the NV40 is so similar to the R300 core. Should have been a very small step for them in that case.

I'm guessing that it's a bit of a oversimplification to say that it's very similar to the R300 core. And perhaps being a bit unfair to Nvidia also. But they do seem to "borrow" some ideas from it :)

The sooner nVidia takes the NV3x cores out back and shoots them, the better for everyone. ;)

Amen.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Well, the first one is running 640x480!
I was going to take that example out, but then I realized that if there was any CPU limitation in any of these then it would go against my argument.

The 9700 PRO has higher framerates, so it will get CPU limited more easily than the 9500 Pro. If it was, then the 9700 PRO would have a lower percentage drop in framerate, which is what those examples contradict. A lot of the NV40 benchmarks show that very effect.

Besides, the third link shows how UT2003 flyby scales quite well with resolution. About half the framerate with 2.5 times more pixels.
 
DemoCoder said:
I'm skeptical on this. I think they saved transistors by going the ATI route. Are we witnessing people flipping sides on this? I thought ATI's AF implementation limitations weren't a big deal? (I never really got too involved in those arguments)
No, it's just that people expect progress, not standing still or regressing. Unrealistic, I know, given 3D gaming's purported aim of cutting corners without getting caught. But ATi improved AF quality moving from R200 to R300, while nV has reduced it for the past three generations. Perhaps nV had no choice but to do so to remain competitive, but the option for nicer texture filtering would be appreciated by some, I'm sure.
 
Bjorn said:
Joe DeFuria said:
Yes, that is one of the best ways I can think to compliment the NV40...it reminds me a lot of the R3xx core. This is a good thing.

Though you would wonder why Ati couldn't implement SM 3.0 in the R420 (as always, assuming that it's true) if the NV40 is so similar to the R300 core. Should have been a very small step for them in that case.

I'm guessing that it's a bit of a oversimplification to say that it's very similar to the R300 core. And perhaps being a bit unfair to Nvidia also. But they do seem to "borrow" some ideas from it :)

Don't get me wrong...I'm saying they're "similar" to the extent that there don't seem to be any glaring flaws in the implementation. I don't see devs having to bend over backwards, drivers having to "cheat" etc to get decent DX9 shader performance with the NV40 core...unlike NV3x.

In other words, the core should be able to pretty much speak for itself...much like R3xx.
 
Bjorn said:
Though you would wonder why Ati couldn't implement SM 3.0 in the R420 (as always, assuming that it's true) if the NV40 is so similar to the R300 core. Should have been a very small step for them in that case.

I'm guessing that it's a bit of a oversimplification to say that it's very similar to the R300 core. And perhaps being a bit unfair to Nvidia also. But they do seem to "borrow" some ideas from it :)
In my (very amateur) view, it seems nV borrowed more from ATi's design techniques than their architecture. And it was clear from NV30's feature list (marchitecture or not) compared to R300 that nV seemed better poised for the next DX leap (which turned out to be SM2.0 to 3.0).

Then again, maybe ATi sticking closer to PS2.0 is a strategic move, to keep the playing field tipped toward them? Perhaps they'll be releasing SM2.0 low-end and motherboard parts, and they want to maintain the appearance of a unified product line with a SM2.0"+" mid- and high-end, rather than offer SM2.0 for budget parts and SM3.0 for the rest? Hewing closer to the LCD seemed to work darn well for nV for a few years, mainly b/c they had the performance advantage.
 
Check This out

Check This out about PS2.0 vs 3.0 from NVIDIA's perspective

http://www.gamers-depot.com/interviews/nvidia/6800/001.htm


GD: NVIDIA and the gaming industry seem to be (eventually) moving to Pixel Shader 3.0 - What advantages do 3.0 have over 2.0? What effects can be done in 3.0 that can't be done with 2.0?

Ujesh: Shader Model 3.0 offers many new features that developers are excited about. I’ll highlight a few: First, there is the ability to finally support loops and branches in programs. This is a fundamental requirement and will improve the efficiency in how programmers can write their code. Another cool feature is Geometry Instancing. This feature is particularly useful for real-time strategy games. Instead of sending small models down the graphics pipe one at a time, programmers can batch up the geometry and send it down the pipe as a single instance. They can then index into that geometry and apply specific attributes. The result will be larger, more epic battles that play at blazing-fast frame rates.


GD: How long of a shader is optimal versus multipassing? Isn't using 2.0 with multipassing still faster than using a longer 3.0 shader?

Tony: Multi-passing is never faster than single pass in the shader, as it will always be more bandwidth and more instructions.


GD: Do you expect that the GeForce 6800 series will be able too render a (long) 3.0 Pixel Shader and still perform at top speed? How about 5 of them?

Tony: The GeForce 6 architecture is designed for the ability to render an arbitrary length pixel shader and still perform at full speed. Of course, that depends on how you define full speed. If by full speed you mean full hardware utilization, then yes. However, there is a direct correlation to rendered pixel rate and shader length. An extremely long shader will still get 100 percent utilization of the hardware, but will not run at full pixel rate. This is true for all programmable hardware, CPU's and GPU's alike. A 1000-instruction shader, regardless of whether it’s single pass or multi-pass, will not run at 16 pixels per clock, as it will take multiple cycles to compute the shader (unless of course that shader was running on pixels which got discarded by Z-Cull, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean...) Also, if that arbirtrarily long shader program was run on only one pixel in the frame, the delivered frame rate might not be impacted at all from that one pixel.

In essence, performance can be related to the number of pixels, and the number of computations that need to be run on those pixels. One loophole in this question would be a 1M pixel frame: If 999,998 pixels had a simple 4 operation shader, one pixel had a 1000 operation shader, and one pixel and 5 1000 operation shaders, you would have a total of 4,005,992 operations. That same frame with 1M pixels with 100% "simple" 4 operation shaders would be 4M operations. In this case, that frame would run at 99.8504% of 16 pixels per clock.

I really would like to see some developers and ATI's comments on these issues sometime soon.
 
Stryyder said:
Until we see the R4xx press package, and annoucement we really won't know what the hell the strategy is I guess.
And when has that ever stopped us from arguing over what we expect it to be before? ;)
 
I can't answer this question. I've allways said the nv40 would be more feature rich than the r420 but slower and would have worse image quality. I can't say if i was right or wrong till the r420 comes out :)
 
I tried to not make a prediction(Hell, I made a post saying predictions were foolish. ;)) but I didn't expect the NV40 to be as good as it seems to be.
 
sonix666 said:
Seiko said:
I overestimated the FSAA. I can't believe Nvidia still can't surpass ATIs.
In what area is ATIs algorithm better? The gamma corrected FSAA? In the leaked screenshots yesterday from HardOCP there was no visible difference between the Radeon 9800 XT and Geforce 6800 at 4x FSAA. So I don't see really any benefit of ATIs method.

Seiko said:
I missed the AF downgrade completely. I don't understand why Nvidia would loose their slim IQ advantage in this area. By doing so they can't really claim any IQ superiority.
Well, the ATI algoritm seems to be more performance effective, and that it is edge dependent isn't visible in most situations according to many many articles and debates over that issue. So, in my opinion a great move by nVidia.

Personally I'm not looking for a next gen card from any IHV to only match the competition hence my disapointment with the NV40. I'm concerned FSAA and AF for that matter are once again taking back seats to massive FPS and potentially marketing style check box features.
Of course these are only my preferences and perhaps a market sweep would show I'm still in the minority? Just can't help but feel though whilst the GPUs enjoy being pretty much held back by CPU limitations they could for the time being at least offer higher degrees of FSAA and AF.
 
Sonixx said:
In what area is ATIs algorithm better? The gamma corrected FSAA? In the leaked screenshots yesterday from HardOCP there was no visible difference between the Radeon 9800 XT and Geforce 6800 at 4x FSAA. So I don't see really any benefit of ATIs method.

You can't really see the true effect of the Camma correction unless you see it on your monitor "live". That being said, my main "gripe", is that it's limited to 4X. If you essentially double the raw performance of a card that offers playble 4X FSAA (R3xx), you should offer a higher AA mode to go with it.

(edit..sorry...originally was directed at the wrong person...)
 
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