skyward sword could've been done with a standard controller

[inlimbo]

skyward sword could've been done with a standard controller and some grease

this isn't a hate thread; what i've played of the game so far has been pretty wonderful, but the controls are increasingly getting in the way. for what it is, the sword play is fun, but the one-to-one motion offered by wii motion plus isn't accurate enough to be functionally much different from say isolating sword control the right analog stick (which is something mgs2 succeeded at ten years ago). in that sense it doesn't justify the promise of the wii like so many reviews have claimed.

still, that's not the source of my complaints. those lie in the other motion controls shoehorned into the experience. flying a loftwing or the mechanical beetle is less than intuitive and always unsatisfying thanks to the wiimote plus. the same goes for tight rope walking, which manages to be less enjoyable than the sixaxis log balancing in the first uncharted. the list goes on from there. in a perfect world, you'd have the option to scale back some of this. and in a some utopia, you'd have the option to use a gamecube controller. at least then there'd be some camera control to take in more of the world.

edit: i mean, zelda games are practically my favorite thing in the world, and yet there's still lists of things i wish nintendo would try or shy away from. so i give them credit for going all in with motion control - i just wish the results had been better

 

[patsu]

In my experience, the dual sticks provide a pretty good and general control mechanism for "fixed-style" sword play. In Demon's Souls, your move set changes based on the weapons used (vertical swing, horizontal slash, dash and pierce, etc.). If you want variety/tactics, pick different weapons and press the right button to active the appropriate weapon strokes. Good rumble also adds a solid sense of impact to the experience.

Move and Wiimote+ (1-1 tracking) are supposed to offer free style combat. In the games I played so far, they do limit the full potential because they usually track relatively large movement only, instead of small movement + orientation + position. In Deadmund's Quest, I could orientate the shield at different angle via small movement. That's the kind of control I want in a sit-down game. I would like to move my wrist or stick orientation in quick succession to activate different hard hitting strokes.

So far I had to swing hard to attack the enemies (even for Deadmund's Quest). It's too much work after a long time. ^_^

There is a separate category of games like Lights Out, KungFu Live, DanceCentral, etc. that promote exercise. Large movements would benefit these games more. All IMHO of course.

 

[SedentaryJourney]

in a perfect world, you'd have the option to scale back some of this. and in a some utopia, you'd have the option to use a gamecube controller. at least then there'd be some camera control to take in more of the world.

I'll never understand why Nintendo didn't add a c-stick to the wiimote and how Sony could repeat this decision 4 years later. Does waggle really have to come at the cost of limited camera control?

 

[patsu]

I think Dr. Marks commented that the stick is hard to use when swinging the controller, but I don't buy the entire argument.

EDIT:
Back to OP, SIXAXIS log balancing is relatively well done. It should be equally doable on Wiimote+ and Move. The difference may be in our preferred game style, In Deadmund's Quest, you're asked to stretch out your arms as if walking on the log. It's fine for an exercise game or a kid's game. If they implement a "smaller" log balancing gesture for other games, I'd go for it.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I'll never understand why Nintendo didn't add a c-stick to the wiimote and how Sony could repeat this decision 4 years later. Does waggle really have to come at the cost of limited camera control?

The goal was to get people to pick up a video game controller who might've been willing to use an NES pad or Atari joystick back in the day, but are put off by modern ten-button dual-stick controllers. That's also why there's just the one big A button rather than, say, the "kidney beans" from the Gamecube controller.

 

[Arwin]

this isn't a hate thread; what i've played of the game so far has been pretty wonderful, but the controls are increasingly getting in the way. for what it is, the sword play is fun, but the one-to-one motion offered by wii motion plus isn't accurate enough to be functionally much different from say isolating sword control the right analog stick (which is something mgs2 succeeded at ten years ago). in that sense it doesn't justify the promise of the wii like so many reviews have claimed.

That's right, the Motion+ is still not 1-to-1, because it cannot be tracked in space when it is not pointing at the sensor bar. But the sword play at least is still way more interesting than the rote fighting was previous though right? At least all my regular podcast journos who are fan of Zelda games are all happy about it, even after 50 hours of play.

still, that's not the source of my complaints. those lie in the other motion controls shoehorned into the experience. flying a loftwing or the mechanical beetle is less than intuitive and always unsatisfying thanks to the wiimote plus. the same goes for tight rope walking, which manages to be less enjoyable than the sixaxis log balancing in the first uncharted. the list goes on from there. in a perfect world, you'd have the option to scale back some of this. and in a some utopia, you'd have the option to use a gamecube controller. at least then there'd be some camera control to take in more of the world.

Some of these things are always questionable, but they have to be done in order for there to be progress at all. Not all analog stick implementations were better than the d-pad equivalents at first either.

What Nintendo does however is try to find what the barriers are for people who are not that comfortable with analog sticks and try to break through them by making the motions match your muscle memory better. Sure, they overshoot sometimes, but this is evolution.

Now there is always the problem of the guy who's thumbs have reshaped themselves to the nubs of analog sticks having a much more developed muscle memory for his thumbs than any other muscle in his body, and there are two ways of dealing with that. The best solution depends on your intended audience:

1) if your audience contains a large group of hardcore gamers, you basically have to implement dual control methods. This however always risks making one of the two less than it could be.
2) If your audience consists of mostly women and children, motion controls are fine (though you still have to be careful to implement them well)

edit: i mean, zelda games are practically my favorite thing in the world, and yet there's still lists of things i wish nintendo would try or shy away from. so i give them credit for going all in with motion control - i just wish the results had been better

They will likely be better next time, at least. I am personally jealous that you have such a large game on the Wii that goes so 'all in'. Although I'm quite happy with Killzone 3 and Infamous 2's Move support, I still wish I could have something as large as Skyrim with Move controls.

 

[fearsomepirate]

That's right, the Motion+ is still not 1-to-1, because it cannot be tracked in space when it is not pointing at the sensor bar.

I thought the whole point of the M+ was that it used gyroscopes to track positional data, albeit clearly with enough intrinsic error that it requires fairly frequent recalibration.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought the whole point of the M+ was that it used gyroscopes to track positional data...

Wiimote+ can only track deviation, not absolute positioning (when not pointing at the sensor bar), hence drift and need for calibration.

 

[Arwin]

I thought the whole point of the M+ was that it used gyroscopes to track positional data, albeit clearly with enough intrinsic error that it requires fairly frequent recalibration.

It's gyroscope is still inaccurate apparently to the point that it still needs frequent calibration despite not doing proper tracking, so never mind 1:1 tracking. At least Wii Sports Resort for instance has no 1:1 tracking, but still asks you occasionally to put down the controller. Perhaps it is better with the non-add on Motion+ though, I never played around with those.

To my knowledge, to date there is no game that supports 1:1 tracking. All there is, is gyroscope work, the kind of stuff the Move controller does without the PS Eye.

 

[patsu]

It seems that the gyro in Move is like Wiimote+, they will both lose accuracy if we throw the sticks around for too long. The difference seems to be in the self-correction software (with the help of the magnetometer and light ball). Some Move games don't lose accuracy, some will auto-adjust over time, but other will still drift after extended use.

According to Destructoid, the other use for the magnetometer is to detect tilt:
http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Go...oller-has-a-magneto-what-ometer--208708.phtml

WiiU pad is supposed to have a magnetometer, likely for such purposes. I think Wiimote+ doesn't have one.


EDIT: That said, I think the OP is talking about the general spirit of Move + Wiimote+ implementations. He seems to note that some number of developers are shoehorning control schemes to the motion controller even if the controls don't fit them. My general take is: Motion control is a very personal experience. You'll hate or like it based on your laziness, expectation, desire for new experience, etc.

e.g., I can play KZ3 with Move now. The experience is indeed different (More fun for sniping and on-rail), but I still prefer dual sticks. So far, it's good for encouraging a second playthrough.

 

[patsu]

The goal was to get people to pick up a video game controller who might've been willing to use an NES pad or Atari joystick back in the day, but are put off by modern ten-button dual-stick controllers. That's also why there's just the one big A button rather than, say, the "kidney beans" from the Gamecube controller.

The challenge is: Move is a double-headed animal. It can be used for waggle games, but Sony also market it for hardcore games. The second part needs more tweaking. And I think having a rocker button or a stick for the main Move button may help. If they design it right, it should not scare my wife or mom away.

At the moment, I believe the key to gain acceptance in hardcore games is to make Move feel almost like a Dualshock, but better.

Move FPS feels better (more efficient) to some because of pointer aiming. The other buttons behave largely the same as a Dualshock. Too bad the XO[]^ button arrangement on Move is awkward compared to DS3.

Move RTS feels better for similar reason (although a tablet would work best).

For a "core" Move adventure game, I think it should be more like Demon's Souls rather than WiiSports. It should allow players to strike hard without large swing. Simply twist or flick your wrist in the right direction and press a strike button to hit the enemies at the target location. Shield control can be performed automatically via a secondary (left hand) button like Demon's Souls. If they adopt this scheme, Demon's Souls melee should become more interesting because the player has more freedom in his strokes "effortlessly"

To accommodate casual gamers, the developers can reserve the extra powerful hits for large swing (like Sports Champions Gladiator). If the user can use both schemes seamlessly together, it seems to offer the best of both worlds.

I think Demon's Souls and Gundam Extreme Vs would be good test beds since they have fast dodge (or boost), shooting and melee. Ninja Gaiden 3 is another possibility.

EDIT: Deadmund's Quest is half way there right now.

The throwing star gesture is small and quick but you have to flick your wrist harder to strike further. In a traditional game, we simply target the enemy instead of exerting more forces to reach further.

The archery gesture is ok, but it takes too long to initiate (pull arrows from back). Using a button to load an arrow would be quicker.

The sword swing requires force and speed to register a strike. Replacing it with "softer" controller movement and button press to strike seems doable.

 

[Arwin]

Move Fitness is pretty great and shows you gameplay that is impossible to replicate meaningfully with DS3. I do miss 3D for it though, that would help greatly in this game. But it is a nice step up in motion tracking for Move imho. A must buy if Move even half interests you.

 

[patsu]

Aiight, I'll give it a look.

For 3D, I heard good things about Mario Land's 3D puzzles.

 

[Arwin]

Aiight, I'll give it a look.

For 3D, I heard good things about Mario Land's 3D puzzles.

Mario Land 3D was in the demo kiosk 3DS in the media markt, but I just can't put myself over the graphics to even be interested long enough to reach a puzzle. May try again next time. My son apparently takes after his father because he immediately took to the other unit which I think has some kind of animal crossing version, even when I suggested Mario to him.

 

[Cyan]

this isn't a hate thread; what i've played of the game so far has been pretty wonderful, but the controls are increasingly getting in the way. for what it is, the sword play is fun, but the one-to-one motion offered by wii motion plus isn't accurate enough to be functionally much different from say isolating sword control the right analog stick (which is something mgs2 succeeded at ten years ago). in that sense it doesn't justify the promise of the wii like so many reviews have claimed.

still, that's not the source of my complaints. those lie in the other motion controls shoehorned into the experience. flying a loftwing or the mechanical beetle is less than intuitive and always unsatisfying thanks to the wiimote plus. the same goes for tight rope walking, which manages to be less enjoyable than the sixaxis log balancing in the first uncharted. the list goes on from there. in a perfect world, you'd have the option to scale back some of this. and in a some utopia, you'd have the option to use a gamecube controller. at least then there'd be some camera control to take in more of the world.

edit: i mean, zelda games are practically my favorite thing in the world, and yet there's still lists of things i wish nintendo would try or shy away from. so i give them credit for going all in with motion control - i just wish the results had been better

I couldn't enjoy it because I don't have a Wii. But it's Zelda, so it is esentially good, and with the new motion control it doesn't require a thousand button presses to control things.

I've read/seen a few reviews and Gamespot one which scored it low (this suprised me) and so far none of them seem to match up with either the overall fun, and impressions on the controls. Haterz gotta hate, but Gamespot review main grip was the controls.

I think Nintendo wanted to try something new because for them, classical controls do harken back to an older style of game that might not hold water in this day and age.

Also, many people have been trolling about the game in Metacritic and scoring it with a 0 in their user reviews.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/user-reviews?page=2

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Mario Land 3D was in the demo kiosk 3DS in the media markt, but I just can't put myself over the graphics to even be interested long enough to reach a puzzle. May try again next time. My son apparently takes after his father because he immediately took to the other unit which I think has some kind of animal crossing version, even when I suggested Mario to him.

Mario is one of those games that always has, and probably always will be a game where style and design are much more important than technical excellence. If you can't stand the gfx thats fine but I wouldnt want to not play a game like mario just because it doesnt look super great. Mario is all about gameplay and smart level design. More poly's and better textures arent going to make the game better or worse imo.

 

[Arwin]

Mario is one of those games that always has, and probably always will be a game where style and design are much more important than technical excellence. If you can't stand the gfx thats fine but I wouldnt want to not play a game like mario just because it doesnt look super great. Mario is all about gameplay and smart level design. More poly's and better textures arent going to make the game better or worse imo.

I find both the tech and the art very disappointing. That leaves the gameplay, but there just doesn't seem to be anything to keep me interested long enough to get to the good bits or something. Mario will get plenty of more chances though as my son gets older.

Gameplay, tech and art are all important for me. Take Rayman Origins - there isn't that much in the design of the game and gameplay that is innovative, but the combination of flawless 60fps, low latency response controls, with fantastic sound and graphics make it an absolute delight to play.

Visual input takes up 80% of our brain's capacity, so you can be sure it matters at least to some extent for most people.

 

[SedentaryJourney]

The goal was to get people to pick up a video game controller who might've been willing to use an NES pad or Atari joystick back in the day, but are put off by modern ten-button dual-stick controllers. That's also why there's just the one big A button rather than, say, the "kidney beans" from the Gamecube controller.

I think the d-pad could have easily been a c-stick instead and wouldn't have scared off anyone. Plus the configuration of a wiimote isn't any less complex than your standard gamepad. It has the same number of face buttons as a dual-shock but with a non-standard layout and a sole trigger on the back. To me this actually seems less intuitive to people who were willing to use an NES or Atari.

What made the Wii appealing to casual gamers was the motion component. It seems more interactive to the casual observer if you have to waggle to perform actions rather than using button joystick combinations. It gave the impression that game-world and real-world actions were mapped to each other, and as a pointer the physical model for selecting something by pointing a real-world object at it also has the same appeal. That's also why there are many wii peripherals designed to mimic physical objects or introduce more motion interfaces. Given the early marketing and wii sports pack-in, Nintendo essentially sold it as active rather than inert gaming and that's what made it appealing to certain audiences who might have held prejudicial views about gaming, or simply found it unappealing.

I personally have no problem with any of this, just let me move my camera in a way that makes sense and becomes almost invisible to the user. I really don't ever have to think twice about moving a camera when it's mapped to an analog stick. That doesn't mean I don't have problems with camera controls, but the interface is never the issue in these cases.

 

[patsu]

Yes, I suspect besides usability, design complexity and cost are major factors in dropping the stick, but I have no proof of course.

Although it's true that we can't use the stick effectively while swinging it around, it's also true that not all games require us to fling it like mad. RTS game actions in particular are pretty civil.




For Mario Land 3D, my son and I looked at this video:

Something's up with that 3D puzzle in one of the mini-dungeons/cells.

 

[inlimbo]

there's plenty to debate about nintendo optioning motion control as a bridge to kids and non-gamers, but there is nothing so simple in skyward sword's use. it's a difficult and complex game and rewarding as such.

i only question the decisions that led to wiimote swimming and wiimote flying when a combination of left stick control and slight wiimote adjustments would've made more intuitive sense. kids pick up complex controls easily because it's in their very natures - it's how we all learned to play games. but i seriously doubt swimming in skyward sword is easier for any child than it would be with a standard controller