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She is in Silent Hill. How could anyone not have a "dead" and pale face there?
I agree. Even the high profile CGI movies suffer from that in certain scenes. Still, of all the realtime cutscenes I've seen, SH3 is doing the most admirable job in facial animation.It doesn't matter how realistic the models get, the animators will always fail when trying to do things like lip movement that looks realistic and matches the voice.
NOOOOO , Vince what are you doing? Your allowing the flood gates for comments such as "but the DC is soo old and has inferior hardware" to be open, you know what PC-Engine is like.Vince said:The texturing is definitely not that impressive, compared to the realism in a DoomIII or Silent Hill 3 or FF:TSW.
As for the SH3 models, they look pretty anime to me. If you find a girl that looks anything like that, i'll cut my right hand off. Stylised anime, and the reason why the they all look pale, is IMHO art direction.Lazy8s said:The SH3 models could've looked more natural by having a fuller flush all over while still keeping the saturation low and only mildly noticeable.
Um, I'd would've though what I'm about to point out goes without saying, but directly comparing a game like Silent Hill 3 or Doom III to Shenmue without considering scale is ridiculous without needing to consider the hardware they're on.NOOOOO , Vince what are you doing? Your allowing the flood gates for comments such as "but the DC is soo old and has inferior hardware" to be open,
marconelly! said:Logan, those shenmue face demos are in fact also realtime, but the point is, while being rendered on the screen, there really isn't much else there. You can see upper part of their torso, some very simplistic background and that's it.
Who said SH3 was "easy" to portray!? I think its a technically outstanding game... no ifs, ands, or buts. That's why it's going to end up being one of the best-looking games of its scale when it releases.The obvious question is, if SH3 is so "easy" to portray on any system, why aren´t there any games that reach the level of detail of its world?
Apparently you were so impressed with the following screenshot, that you thought it was part of the head demo. It's not. It's from an in-game cinema:And no, those fake Shenmue face demos do not count.
That Shenmue shot of the girl's face above is being rendered in a scene with her full character model standing at the edge of a cliff next to a forest and overlooking a long, winding river. An eagle flies through the canyon and shows that it's actually quite a vast environment with rolling hills, rocky ledges and all. Much larger and with better visibility than a survival horror game.I´m not a programmer, but I imagine it´s very easy for a system in this generation to concentrate all of it´s power in rendering a single CG quality face, no matter how underpowered compared to PS2 it is. However, SH3 is doing it realtime.
Then surely you'll have no trouble pointing out some other games with graphics of its scale that look significantly better.Really, websites, fans, everyone but diehard DC fans do not recognize that even Shenmue 2 is outdated in the graphics department.
The in-game graphics are amazing. You can take a screenshot from anywhere in the whole Hong Kong or Yokosuka map, and I'd be able to tell you exactly where Ryo is and which NPCs are off in the distance. Why? Because each storefront, each block, each park, and each person is fully modeled with high geometry and distinctive enough textures that's it's all easily recognizeable from each other. There storefronts each have their own signs, decorations, fully modeled doors and windows, and other distinctions... and there's rows upon rows of them mixed with parks and skyscrapers all within the same chunk of city. What other games have such a fully expressed world with such a level of detail?Basically, all I hear when people try to show off Shenmue´s graphics is how great those demos are. Look at the real time graphics, and the images speak for themselves. Bringing up face demos doesn´t change that the in game graphics are lacking nowadays.
I just think they could've used better skin surfacing textures:I´d also like to know what is really the arguement against SH3´s skin textures. They look very realistic to me, with facial imperfections, different shades of the same color being applied on the skin, even blue veins are present in a subtle matter, just like in real life. and if the claim is that her skin isn´t "rosy enough, without enough rosy spots here and there", here´s a clue: people have different skin tones.
The problem with the example of those guards is that they don't have the variations in detail levels or are enclosed within as detailed environments as you get in Shenmue. MGS2 looks alright, and the framerate makes it fairly impressive. But, the game's scale is hardly comparable here. Unless you can remind me (pics would help if you could find some) of some environments in MGS2 with as much variation and detail on-screen as say, Dobuita or the Wise Man's Quarter from the Shenmue series...50 NPCs on the screen at one time? MGS2.
There's no pop-in for the environment at all. I'd think you were talking about the characters, except you go on to list that as a separate criticism...I think you're looking back a little too fondly on Shenmue - there's shitloads of pop-in,
True. But, in Shenmue II, this happens at their draw horizon because the game allows the partially unscripted possibility that any one from a list of hundreds of NPCs could be walking onto the screen at any time. It's obviously not going to keep hundreds of character models in RAM at all times, so they have be dynamically spooled off the disc when they wander in from a new chunk of town. However, this isn't a problem with geometry load as many would assume, for you can easily let those "fading" characters approach your view, as well as another ten if you wanted, and they wouldn't suddenly start disappearing once they were within the view horizon. Unfortunately, the draw horizon for NPCs is set too close for Ryo's running speed, so that's why they appear to fade in. But again, the engine has no problem pushing the required geometry for them once they've already been accessed off the disc.the NPCs fade in and out constantly,
You can't forget scale, though. What other game has so many different characters in such detailed and varied environments without turning into GTA3/Crazy-Taxi blurred textures?when the at the same the textures on the characters are generally average at best (check out Ryo's blurry jacket!!),
Then you won't mind pointing out a game with more detailed environments which allows you to see at least a few city blocks at a time.the environments aren't that amazing,
Blocky yes. Then again, tons of characters are all getting their own shadows.the shadows are blocky and glitchy,
No. In Shenmue II, there are time control options at certain points which allow you to fast forward the hours in only a few seconds. You can clearly see the shadows bending and the lighting dynamically coloring the environment with the movement of the sun. Of course it's no Silent Hill 3, but then again this game isn't enclosed in small, little rooms.the lighting on the outdoor scenes is static...
This criticism doesn't make sense in the way you mean it to. The thing that makes outside harder to render than inside is the fact that you don't have walls and ceilings almost always useful in occlusion; you have the much longer view distances. Shenmue's outdoors has these lengthy view distances. You can see well over a hundred meters down any open pathway with no fogging or environmental fade-in (as well as into the sky for vertical elevation details), so it's as outdoor in the truest sense of frame rendering as anything can be. When you look out into the distance, you're seeing that stuff, and it's being rendered. No tricks there.Shenmue does a lot of things well, graphically all things considered, but the game is basically structured like a series of rooms - it just happens that those rooms contain geometry that represents outside view.
True. With more control over what the player will be seeing, you can "tune" things better. Still, that doesn't make it any less "outdoors" or make the rendering requirement any less. It just makes view prediction more scripted.but to also handpick the objects from the grand scene that are going to be visible on the horizon in that particular 'room'.
The views in Silent Hill locations are very scripted and controlled. And they're indoors, which is a big difference since it benefits from small, enclosed spaces with ceilings and walls.In that sense it's not much different from the silent hill games, especially considering that SH3 promisses a lot of larger, and still very detailed environments to explore, as opposed to SH2.
Well... the Shenhua picture there has a full character in a vast, unobscured environment.Logan, those shenmue face demos are in fact also realtime, but the point is, while being rendered on the screen, there really isn't much else there. You can see upper part of their torso, some very simplistic background and that's it.
No... It outputs exactly 448i on PS2. It doesn't output 448p, though, but the game obviously does use full frame buffers (you can never see any sign of dreaded intrlace line doubling when it slows down)I believe MGS2 outputs at a lower res of 448i.
I must say I haven't see much of those, so I won't say anything about it.This is where the scale of the two games differ heavily, even in Silent Hill 3's "outdoor" environments.
That is very true, but my point was that any time creators of Shenmue see any kind of slowdown, they could either delete some of the objects from the scene, or simplify the geometry for that particular scene manually, not caring about any kind of automatic LOD algorithm. In that sense, although outdoors, that game's scenes had almost as much control over what is displayed as games that render classic rooms.The views in Silent Hill locations are very scripted and controlled. And they're indoors, which is a big difference since it benefits from small, enclosed spaces with ceilings and walls.
That's what I meant. I said "res of 448i" to indicate the exact resolution, and used the modifier "lower" to imply that it was lower than the 480p. Sorry for the wording confusion.No... It outputs exactly 448i on PS2.
The framerate, view distances, seamless world, and geometry are all very impressive in Jak and Daxter... a well thought-out engine indeed for PS2. But you can't honestly tell me that, even with the differences to art styles, you think it surpasses Shenmue for how detail-packed specific areas are.Btw, when you mentioned Jak & Daxter, which I forgot about. In my opinion that game in particular is in every way more impressive than Shenmue, graphically. It looks completely different though, but the variation of detail, constant 60FPS framerate, very solid (multi)texturing with mipmapping, and insane amounts of geometry are all there, as well as very nicely done and abundant particle effects. Plus it has no visible loading pauses.