Silent hill 3 WTF!!!
- Thread starter zidane1strife
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marconelly!
Veteran
Which made both people in Shenmue and people in Shrek more cartoonish looking than they look in reality (that was the goal of Shrek designers, you can see it the making of material - they had to 'cartoonize' their people because they were too realistic looking, initially). People DO have very textured skins, actually, with all kinds of irregularities, tiny specks, wrinkles and pores. The more you remove that textured look, the more they look like cartoon characters, and that was obviously not the goal of SH3, or FF:TSW for that matter:
Precisely. As an example - look no further than Fatal Frame. A horror game with simillar mood, that uses that kind of character modeling and texturing. It look completely wrong and out of place.
The surfacing on real skin is very intricate with pores, hairs, and all that. But, what I was pointing out is that those SH3 models could use a more realistic flush of color variance. Instead, it looks pale and flat all over, like there's no blood flowing through their body.
I'm not suggesting bright, rosey tones or cartoonish saturation. You can keep the moody atmosphere of the graphics while still having subtle flushing of the skin. Translucency layers or more and better texturing can help to allow for that finer grade of detailing.
I'm not suggesting bright, rosey tones or cartoonish saturation. You can keep the moody atmosphere of the graphics while still having subtle flushing of the skin. Translucency layers or more and better texturing can help to allow for that finer grade of detailing.
marconelly!
Veteran
Realistic color variance is obviously the matter of art direction, and even more the result of coloured lighting. Take a look at David Fincher movies to see examples of completely non-rosy looking skins. Still, very gritty and realistic looking in their own way. The actual coloring and atmosphere of SH3 reminds me a lot of his movie 'Seven':
I think this game goes for that. The more you eliminate that rosy look, the less baby-faced and less innocent the characters will look.
Btw, I just noticed that in some screens there are blue blood vessels below her hand's skin. They really took that extra step whan making those textures.
I think this game goes for that. The more you eliminate that rosy look, the less baby-faced and less innocent the characters will look.
Btw, I just noticed that in some screens there are blue blood vessels below her hand's skin. They really took that extra step whan making those textures.
randycat99
Veteran
Also consider the movie Minority Report, where the art direction specifically called for a *very* washed-out, organically-colorless look. I thought there was something wrong with my TV the first time I watched it on DVD, but it makes a lot of sense given the story focus and is confirmed as such in the "about the movie" featurettes.
There's also the Three Kings where the initial look was intentionally bleached out and very pale in color.
I think it is fairly aggreeable that many movies dealing with horror/evil/death employ a subdued, faded color look (especially in people's faces). Certainly, one wouldn't find themself all flush and bloomed when faced with contexts and situations like that in real life.
There's also the Three Kings where the initial look was intentionally bleached out and very pale in color.
I think it is fairly aggreeable that many movies dealing with horror/evil/death employ a subdued, faded color look (especially in people's faces). Certainly, one wouldn't find themself all flush and bloomed when faced with contexts and situations like that in real life.
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Guest
Guest
can we have a pic of Shenhua?
marconelly!
Veteran
Here are some:
This looks like a video capture from the intro -
And this seems to be a photography of the TV screen -
This looks like a video capture from the intro -
And this seems to be a photography of the TV screen -
randycat99
Veteran
Uhh, looks like she just had sex!
He was joking about having the picture posted again. But, it'd be difficult to make any comparisons between the skin tones from these shots. For one, when you see it running through VGA, the Shenhua model has a strikingly realistic dispersion of flush across her face (you can only make it out to a small degree in the bottom shot which looks like it was photographed off of a screen). Also, the Silent Hill 3 shots we're using for comparison are doctored.
Since we're talking about skin portrayal, here's a shot from the Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within movie -
Since we're talking about skin portrayal, here's a shot from the Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within movie -
Lazy8s said:
Well, it's your opinion so thats cool, but Shenmue overall isn't anywhere near as realistic as a FF or SH in the potreyal of the human figure. The Shenmue pictures above are great examples; the face is far to symmetric in structure and the textures - while widely used as a source of grandeous texturing - would probobly make someone like Ken Perlin rip his eyes out and burn them for the [texture's] portreyal of nature.
Ohh yeah, almost forgot:
... lol
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Guest
Guest
lazy8, just let it go, please.
If anything, Xbox is the one to look out for great graphics.
If anything, Xbox is the one to look out for great graphics.
marconelly!
Veteran
Actually, the picture I posted above is the extreme closup (and very clean, direct render) of the face of that same girl from your picture. You just can't make out all that detail from the smaller vidcap you posted.
Here's another, higher quality cap that has lighting simillar to those used for SH3:
And a full model used in SH3:
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Guest
Guest
SH3 has the more realistic human like skin texture, Shenhua looks like your average plastic smooth anime character.
I'm talking about the subtle variations in tone across the surface of the face. Compared to Shenhua's, the SH3 facial skin looks like they repeated the texture more - resulting in more abrupt changes from pale to darker areas. It doesn't strike me as too natural looking in that regard. The SH3 face is definitely lit more realistically, though... no argument there.
When you look at the Final Fantasy movie shots, you can see subtle grades of redness around the cheeks and nose where blood vessels are more concentrated at the surface (much more realistic). While not quite as good, the Shenhua model also does a good job of showing the inherent patchiness of real skin.
As far as art styling goes - yes, it's quite obvious the Shenhua model goes for a more cartoonish design. I'm not debating which face is trying to mimic real proportions or realistic stylings more than other. I'm just talking about the representation of making skin look like skin.
When you look at the Final Fantasy movie shots, you can see subtle grades of redness around the cheeks and nose where blood vessels are more concentrated at the surface (much more realistic). While not quite as good, the Shenhua model also does a good job of showing the inherent patchiness of real skin.
As far as art styling goes - yes, it's quite obvious the Shenhua model goes for a more cartoonish design. I'm not debating which face is trying to mimic real proportions or realistic stylings more than other. I'm just talking about the representation of making skin look like skin.
LogisticX:
As far as representing proper grades of pigmentation goes, I'd say Shenhua is closer to that girl from FF:TSW than SH3 models are. The characteristics that Silent Hill 3 skin shares with the FF:TSW is the more realistic approach to modeling the human head (narrower face, imperfections), and of course the lighting. But when you zoom in really close on that Shenhua head (or in the Shenmue head demos) and when you compare that to a Silent Hill 3 extreme close-up, the skin on the Silent Hill 3 models will reveal a more textured look - this is in contrast to the natural translucency (letting you spot pigmentation beneath the skin) that you could see when zooming in on the surface of Shenhua's facial skin.
I'll avoid using such a nebulous term as "skin style", since that doesn't really say anything. I've been specifically talking about the dispersion of pigmentation across various regions of the face (blotches of redness and white). It's a subtle effect, but one that gives skin surface a realistic touch depending on how well it's done.
No. I never said FF:TSW skin wasn't done well - not sure where you guys have been getting that from. I pointed out FF:TSW as an example because I thought it was done the best, actually.
As far as representing proper grades of pigmentation goes, I'd say Shenhua is closer to that girl from FF:TSW than SH3 models are. The characteristics that Silent Hill 3 skin shares with the FF:TSW is the more realistic approach to modeling the human head (narrower face, imperfections), and of course the lighting. But when you zoom in really close on that Shenhua head (or in the Shenmue head demos) and when you compare that to a Silent Hill 3 extreme close-up, the skin on the Silent Hill 3 models will reveal a more textured look - this is in contrast to the natural translucency (letting you spot pigmentation beneath the skin) that you could see when zooming in on the surface of Shenhua's facial skin.
Lazy, with all due repect, you're perhaps the most inconsistent poster on here. It's really getting old, very quickly. Shenhua looking more like FF: TSW than SH3? ^2. Shenhua is pretty shitty from the perspective of a true portreyal of the human, or natural, figure. Like I said before, Ken Perlin would smack you for the way you talk.
So, Silent Hill3 is less natural looking compared to Shenhua, while Shenua is quite obviously going for a more cartoonish design?
So, based on that, you're saying that not only is Shenhua more natural, it's also more cartoonish... what horse-shit. Time to shut up.
Can you double talk anymore? Is that even a linguistic possibility?
^2. Shenhua is pretty shitty from the perspective of a true portreyal of the human, or natural, figure. Like I said before, Ken Perlin would smack you for the way you talk.Lazy8s said:
So, Silent Hill3 is less natural looking compared to Shenhua, while Shenua is quite obviously going for a more cartoonish design?
So, based on that, you're saying that not only is Shenhua more natural, it's also more cartoonish... what horse-shit. Time to shut up.
Can you double talk anymore? Is that even a linguistic possibility?
Vince:
"I've been specifically talking about the dispersion of pigmentation across various regions of the face (blotches of redness and white). It's a subtle effect, but one that gives skin surface a realistic touch depending on how well it's done."
I didn't say that. I said the surfacing on the skin was less natural looking. They look pale white all over - save for the lighting/shading. I already explained what I was talking about before:
"I've been specifically talking about the dispersion of pigmentation across various regions of the face (blotches of redness and white). It's a subtle effect, but one that gives skin surface a realistic touch depending on how well it's done."
The Shenhua character model, not the surfacing of the skin, is taking a more cartoonish approach. I was simply pointing out the different artistic approaches taken in the character designs - you know, like how the Dead or Alive 3 characters are more cartoonish in art direction than the Tekken 4 characters, yet that doesn't make their attributes any less detailed.
marconelly!
Veteran
Lazy, I know that you often subscribe to some kind of internal logic that I can't get grasp of, but if blushness of the face is what you are looking for, that girl from SH3 actually exhibits it under normal, uncolored light. Here's one picture where you can see that quite clearly:
The skin doesn't look pale all over and had obvious (abeit slight) redness on cheeks and some on the nose. Of course, that is all gone as soon as different coloured lighting kicks in.
Btw, this is the picture where you can see faint glimpse of blue blood vessels on her hand.
The skin doesn't look pale all over and had obvious (abeit slight) redness on cheeks and some on the nose. Of course, that is all gone as soon as different coloured lighting kicks in.
Btw, this is the picture where you can see faint glimpse of blue blood vessels on her hand.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about marconelly!. And you're right, the SH3 face does exhibit some natural redness - I didn't mean to imply it was devoid of all tone and flat-shaded. It just isn't applied enough in subtle grades across the face to keep them from looking unnaturally pale (at least compared with the Final Fantasy models and Shenhua model above.)
It doesn't even have to be a rosey blush or in contrast with the game's mood. Shenhua is modeled to be cartoonish in the first place, so her color saturation is obviously cranked up high to begin with. That doesn't mean that there's not a ton of grade variation across her skin, though. The SH3 models could've looked more natural by having a fuller flush all over while still keeping the saturation low and only mildly noticeable.
It doesn't even have to be a rosey blush or in contrast with the game's mood. Shenhua is modeled to be cartoonish in the first place, so her color saturation is obviously cranked up high to begin with. That doesn't mean that there's not a ton of grade variation across her skin, though. The SH3 models could've looked more natural by having a fuller flush all over while still keeping the saturation low and only mildly noticeable.