Senjo No Valkyria (Valkyrie of the Battlefield) : Best Cell shading ever?

[Shifty Geezer]

For me, Snipers are in-between Lancers and Shocktroopers. I summon them early. Once the enemies got out of range, I retired them to base and re-summon them from a new base. Sometimes, a combination of elite sniper and scout is more efficient than using scouts alone (or scout and shocktrooper).

So far I disagree. Two scouts give each support fire and provide opportunity fire. In a whole round of player and computer turn, more damage/deaths will be dealth with 2 scouts up front than one scout and sniper at the back. It's this lack of opportunity/support fire from the snipers that really hampers them. That and precious few true vantage points.

I don't think VC aims to be a strict strategy war game.

Definitely not! I just wish I had known that before buying. And I wish it had aimed at being more of a strategy game!

Those're the RPG elements. I actually think they are part of the game design, not unlike side quests in RPG games. The speed run tactics are meant for replay.

Then I say it should have been unlocked after the game was completed the first time.

 

[patsu]

So far I disagree. Two scouts give each support fire and provide opportunity fire. In a whole round of player and computer turn, more damage/deaths will be dealth with 2 scouts up front than one scout and sniper at the back. It's this lack of opportunity/support fire from the snipers that really hampers them. That and precious few true vantage points.

It depends on the level design. You will run into situations where a sniper bullet can get to the enemy instantly but it will take the Scouts more trouble to get to the target, and then have to double back again to take out other targets.

...

Then I say it should have been unlocked after the game was completed the first time.

That I agree. Or gimp the scout's movement more on subsequent moves.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I didn't speed ran the missions at all, instead I tried to use proper and efficient strategy, however I played lot's of skirmishes and speed ran those, so even though I lost some xp during the story missions I got plenty of experience from skirmishes, that way I could play the missions the way I wanted + level the hell out of characters and weapons. I didn't really pay much attention to potentials, I never felt the need. I think my team was little bit over leveled in the main story missions, because I played so many skirmish battles, but that's the way I like it :smile:

 

[3dilettante]

I think the battle system is interesting in how it tried to fit something that is typically full of simultaneous movement into something as sequential as a turn-based, almost set-piece kind of combat.

It was an admirable, if incomplete attempt.
The main campaign's reliance on a perponderance of instant-win capture-the-flag missions really places a high value on scouts for most missions.



Armor, snipers, and engineers are relatively anemic compared to the utility of the main combat classes.
A scout can: capture a flag, run far, and blow enemies out of the flag zone with a grenade (later, this can be done at a great distance), and head-shot (the one thing it appears the Empire never has at its disposal)

Shocktroopers are sometimes needed in a few select scenarios where a scout's boosted firepower is insufficient.
I can think of two notable levels that I can one-turn with a buffed-out shocktrooper.

Lancers with their poor mobility and dubious accuracy are usually of secondary importance because they don't take flags and tanks are rarely a problem in getting to a flag.

In the main campaign, engineers are made useful in one rather contrived instance, the same with snipers.
Engineers can repair tanks, but it is also the case that most of the time you don't waste points on moving armor or are best served moving it where it won't be damaged.

Other than levels that are scripted to limit speed, the secondary classes are very secondary.
There is one or two more satisfying side-missions where I did find a sniper, a shock trooper, and lancer to be rather useful.


At the highest levels and total order loadout, the game becomes "Buffed-out Alicia and a few miscellaneous soldiers Chronicles".
Alicia is insanely effective on a replay with a few commands thrown her way.
To a great extent, the following cease to be issues for her with all her potentials in any capture the flag map and one or two commands: distance, health, damage, the enemy.

I can think of one or two levels I can nail with a shock trooper. (None are capture the flag)
One or two somewhat contrived ones where an engineer matters, kinda. (None are capture the flag)
One or two where a sniper is useful. (None are capture the flag)
One (edit: or two/three) where armor is for contrived reasons necessary. (One is capture the flag, but the reason why you need the tank is contrived)

Welkin is helpful for a few key orders.
Aside from the CP-contributing leaders, I'd probably need Marina, Alex, and Jann to one-shot a few battles.
For the rest of my one-shotting needs, it's Alicia.

 

[patsu]

Yap ! Alicia is super powerful after something happens to her. Their grenade launcher is handy too.

Before that, I prefer Rosie and the other ShockTrooper with strong will (Can't remember her name anymore).

 

[Rolf N]

Very disappointing experience overall. Definitely not a strategy game. I wish they had spent more time making the core mechanics work and provide an interesting challenge through that, but instead every other mission is based on some rule-defying gimmick and/or trial&error.

Some of the optional side missions, where it's just the game rules, are excellent. Eg the one where you have to protect your camp with very limited deployment, lots of high grass, lots of tanks on the enemy side. Don't remember the name. It's such a bummer that the main story is so ... wild.

 

[patsu]

Some of the optional side missions, where it's just the game rules, are excellent. Eg the one where you have to protect your camp with very limited deployment, lots of high grass, lots of tanks on the enemy side. Don't remember the name. It's such a bummer that the main story is so ... wild.

"Limited resources" is how I played it. My soldiers were all "mal-levelled" because I didn't do any side missions. I didn't exploit the holes, except for one level where I had to leave my house fast Every game was a good challenge because the enemy soldiers were considerably higher level than me. I spent more time thinning enemy lines, and also made sure my units stuck together.

Since I ended the levels with average grades, I received ok -- not fantastic -- compensation to upgrade my squad. I often need to rely on teamwork to take down the enemy heroes because they &%$*(&%$*( dodged all my shots. In one of the levels, I had to lure a cursed hero with decoy, and generally run away from him because I couldn't kill him even with 3-4 Shocktroopers together. It was scary because that guy -- any enemy unit -- can make multiple moves in the same round. As for Alicia,

Spoiler

she could deflect 1-2 direct hits, but it was possible for an enemy cannon and heavy MG to take her out with her "Mysterious Body" potential.

.

For VC2, I think they should stop rewarding people who complete the mission "too fast" during the first playthrough. They'd run out of upgrade points, which makes it harder to speed run for subsequent levels.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Very disappointing experience overall. Definitely not a strategy game. I wish they had spent more time making the core mechanics work and provide an interesting challenge through that, but instead every other mission is based on some rule-defying gimmick and/or trial&error.

I just came up against a design faux pas last night; SEGA changed the rules on me without informing me. It's just after the Alicia incidient, and she's doing her thing. It's a big level. The two tanks appear that need ot be taken down. I run in Rosie along the top, give her some 'damage' orders, and shoot down at the vulnerable radiator...and nothing happens! I guess it's firing position, so I reload and try a scout positoned behind the tank getting clear shots. Again nothing. Finally I take it down with a Lancer. But they shouldn't change the rules on me. That's a waste of my time, guessing why one tactic no longer works.

Now some people might argue, "that's life, and you can't expect a war to go according to plan." Fair enough, but my response is, "this isn't a war, it's a computer game!" If it were a real war situation I'd be doing all sorts of things different. As it is, within the game rules I have learnt that using a well positioned buffed soldier to take down a tank in one (well three, or two if you get two tanks) CP is a an excellent tactic, but for this one mission it's randomly pulled out from underneath me. Grrr!

On the plus side, I've found use for snipers now which is very enjoyable. Headshots pretty much on demand have changed things a little, as I try to plan paths and thin enemies ahead of a Scouter rush or similar.

In the Refugee Camp protection mission that Rolf likes, I find the grass very annoying. It renders soldiers practically invincible which is just silly. It made Rosie's specific mission pretty frustrating, until I tried out the Shamrock's flamer (the only time that vehicle has seen action with me!) but of course that isn't available in the Camp mission. Otherwise it's a case of a grenade or running them over wiht a tank to get them to stand up, and then a shot to finish them off. Even Trooper flamers can't kill grass-crawlers in a single CP. As grass gives massive protection and limits opportunity fire, while not hindering motion at all, it serves the enemy far better than me. If I am spotted and shot at in the grass, although they only do a few HP damage, they will fire constantly until I get out of range or end the go.

 

[patsu]

I run in Rosie along the top, give her some 'damage' orders, and shoot down at the vulnerable radiator...and nothing happens! I guess it's firing position, so I reload and try a scout positoned behind the tank getting clear shots. Again nothing. Finally I take it down with a Lancer. But they shouldn't change the rules on me. That's a waste of my time, guessing why one tactic no longer works.

I think I tried shocktrooper vs tank in later levels. They were not effective in general, not just that double-dragon-tank level. I tried sniper vs tank too, can't remember what the outcome was. Use a Lancer or Tank. That's why I said you'll find more use for these secondary classes earlier on. Which Chapter are you at now ?

The other suggestion for VC2 is to introduce level of difficulty. I see some non-strategy gamers coming to play Valkyria in the GAF thread and liking it. They claimed they are extremely weak in strategy games. Don't want to scare them away in VCx.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I just came up against a design faux pas last night; SEGA changed the rules on me without informing me. It's just after the Alicia incidient, and she's doing her thing. It's a big level. The two tanks appear that need ot be taken down. I run in Rosie along the top, give her some 'damage' orders, and shoot down at the vulnerable radiator...and nothing happens! I guess it's firing position, so I reload and try a scout positoned behind the tank getting clear shots. Again nothing. Finally I take it down with a Lancer. But they shouldn't change the rules on me. That's a waste of my time, guessing why one tactic no longer works.

Hmm funny I never even tried shooting any tanks radiator with other units than my tanks and Lancers... I just assumed that you can't do any damage to them with rifles. On that particular mission I failed at my first attempt, when an enemy scout managed to occupy my unprotected camp, then on my retry I had put my tanks at both ends of the map, before the enemy tanks appeared, which meant that, when they finally appeared, I had a full turn to crush them and my tanks barrels were already pointing at them juicy radiators.

 

[Rolf N]

I just came up against a design faux pas last night; SEGA changed the rules on me without informing me.
<...>

That's virtually the only thing I don't like about the game, but it just happens so often that it really weighs down on the whole thing IMO.
Another case in point: the famous Barius encounter where the game prevents you from

Spoiler

destroying all three radiators within a single turn by just ending your turn whenever you get one. And all because they want you to spend at least three turns with Selvaria assaulting your troops.

Personally, I weigh reliable mechanics higher than any concerns for narration, so that just shouldn't have happened. They could have conveyed the whole thing in a cut-scene just as well IMO, without breaking the rules yet another time.

Other instances have been mentioned. The one where capturing the enemy base not only fails to win you the mission, but instead immediately fills two ends of the map with enemy reinforcements is particularly aggravating. I'd also like to mention the mounted rail turret that can not only hit you from ludicrous range, but you can't even see on the map where that range ends, unlike, say, artillery strikes.

On the plus side, I've found use for snipers now which is very enjoyable. Headshots pretty much on demand have changed things a little, as I try to plan paths and thin enemies ahead of a Scouter rush or similar.

I found snipers to be very useful mid- and end-game, many of the earlier missions simply lack clear lines of fire.

In the Refugee Camp protection mission that Rolf likes, I find the grass very annoying. It renders soldiers practically invincible which is just silly. It made Rosie's specific mission pretty frustrating, until I tried out the Shamrock's flamer (the only time that vehicle has seen action with me!) but of course that isn't available in the Camp mission. Otherwise it's a case of a grenade or running them over wiht a tank to get them to stand up, and then a shot to finish them off. Even Trooper flamers can't kill grass-crawlers in a single CP. As grass gives massive protection and limits opportunity fire, while not hindering motion at all, it serves the enemy far better than me. If I am spotted and shot at in the grass, although they only do a few HP damage, they will fire constantly until I get out of range or end the go.

I actually agree with everything you said there. Still, I felt that the mission was challenging in all the right ways, you had to piece together your turns very carefully to get things done. I think I used those rifle-mounted grenade-launchers there to stand (groups of) enemies up, and I also ended up killing a soldier or two with a lancer that was on the way around back a tank anyway.

The way the grass works is crazy, but the good thing about that mission was that it stuck to the rules, it didn't throw anything at you that you didn't have a chance to learn through the normal course of the game. No arbitrary reinforcements, no random artillery fire, no invincible super-units. Just you, your choice of units, your management of CP and orders versus an enemy that operated within the same rules. For once.

 

[3dilettante]

Some of the optional side missions, where it's just the game rules, are excellent. Eg the one where you have to protect your camp with very limited deployment, lots of high grass, lots of tanks on the enemy side. Don't remember the name. It's such a bummer that the main story is so ... wild.

Spoiler

"Flower of the Battlefield" or somesuch.

It was one of the levels where I found a sniper to be genuinely useful, particularly in allowing me to take out an enemy engineer at the outset so that I could then hobble tanks at my discretion.

I just came up against a design faux pas last night; SEGA changed the rules on me without informing me. It's just after the Alicia incidient, and she's doing her thing. It's a big level. The two tanks appear that need ot be taken down. I run in Rosie along the top, give her some 'damage' orders, and shoot down at the vulnerable radiator...and nothing happens! I guess it's firing position, so I reload and try a scout positoned behind the tank getting clear shots. Again nothing. Finally I take it down with a Lancer. But they shouldn't change the rules on me. That's a waste of my time, guessing why one tactic no longer works.

I guess they're "boss" tanks, but yeah, that was kind of a wtf moment when I got surprised by that.

Even Trooper flamers can't kill grass-crawlers in a single CP.

I went back to this later in the game.
There is a capturable enemy flame thrower that can do this. It's of course easier on a new game+ when you can play at will.

I think I tried shocktrooper vs tank in later levels. They were not effective in general, not just that double-dragon-tank level. I tried sniper vs tank too, can't remember what the outcome was. Use a Lancer or Tank. That's why I said you'll find more use for these secondary classes earlier on. Which Chapter are you at now ?

With or without orders, and what level of firepower?

I think certain orders can seriously increase the amount of damage infantry can do to a radiator. I think with the right combination, a trooper can do significant damage, before the game basically becomes broken at the highest order and unit levels.

On a power-gaming re-playthrough, a fully-stocked Scout (Alicia, usually) with the best armaments and demo boost can kill a heavy.
Snipers don't have the shot volume, so far as I've seen, though I should go back and try in the rare case a tank is facing the right way.

 

[patsu]

With or without orders, and what level of firepower?

No potential activated. My highest level was 12 at the end of the game. I can't remember whether I issued any orders at all. Probably not.

I think certain orders can seriously increase the amount of damage infantry can do to a radiator. I think with the right combination, a trooper can do significant damage, before the game basically becomes broken at the highest order and unit levels.

I know earlier on, my troopers could damage a tank (somewhat slowly). In late levels, it was much harder (negligible damage). One or two have special "Tank Killer" potential. Have never tried buffing troopers up to flank enemy tanks. I usually use Edelweiss for that, and provide cover for the foot soldiers as well.

On a power-gaming re-playthrough, a fully-stocked Scout (Alicia, usually) with the best armaments and demo boost can kill a heavy.

Yeah, I have read on GAF. My Alicia is rather whimpy in comparison.

Snipers don't have the shot volume, so far as I've seen, though I should go back and try in the rare case a tank is facing the right way

My sniper had wiped the field clean by then. Since I ran out of targets and wanted to fool around, I had her fire on tanks instead. It was a total waste of turn.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think I tried shocktrooper vs tank in later levels. They were not effective in general, not just that double-dragon-tank level.

Use the 'Damage Boost' boost and almost always, save for this last mission, a Scout can down any tank with 5 shots/1CP. In my current mission it's 6 shots from Alicia with the most damaging gun available to her (one of the Empire weapons). Or use 'Demolition' to guarantee it. Troopers get to waste tanks with shots to spare, but of course they're hobbled by the movement.

Which Chapter are you at now ?

Is it 14? I'm through the gates and fighting Sevlaria. And yes, you guessed it, I'm going to complain again!

The mission prior to this was busting the gates open. It was set up to be an epic battle. I ran a 'scouting' attempt to see if there were any events or similar I had to worry about, and completed it with a A grade in 2 turns by just running Alicia through and flicking the switches. This really wasn't the way to do things, and I kept the save game thinking I might return to it to actually have a battle, even though it'd be a long, drawn out process. But after the next level, I've changed my mind, and just want to rush through.

The reason being the Japanese can't help but throw in stupid boss battles! I swore away from JRPGs with Rogue Galaxy. Even though I enjoyed the game, it just took too long. This last mission has a baddie you can barely hit with enough CP to heal herself and her army every turn. It appears you need multiple people to fight her as you have to shoot her from behind but can't run behind her once she's seen you. To get my forces up there and do her in will take ages. Alternatively I can start with just Alicia, run her through grabbing checkpoints and gunning tanks, and spawn people at the top, without consuming too much of my free time!

I was wondering yesterday if the design of VC was an unwanted mix? I wonder if the original idea was a strategy game, but someone or other in charge with JRPG experience made sure that was included, producing a hybrid? Or was the starting design a JRPG but the combat mechanics were changed from 'party of three taking turns' to 'large party taking turns with some realtime element'?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Is it 14? I'm through the gates and fighting Sevlaria. And yes, you guessed it, I'm going to complain again!

The mission prior to this was busting the gates open. It was set up to be an epic battle. I ran a 'scouting' attempt to see if there were any events or similar I had to worry about, and completed it with a A grade in 2 turns by just running Alicia through and flicking the switches. This really wasn't the way to do things, and I kept the save game thinking I might return to it to actually have a battle, even though it'd be a long, drawn out process. But after the next level, I've changed my mind, and just want to rush through.

Might just as well tell what I did :smile:
I think I took the tank down with a lancer first, then I proceed upstairs to the left side. It's good idea to shoot a smoke mortar with your tank to the upper end of the stairs or little bit higher to block Selvaria's fire against your advancing troops. In essence I activated the lifts on both sides and sandwitched Selvaria between my two tanks and did alternate fire with them, when I shot her with Edellweis, she would turn her back to Shamrock and vice versa.

I might have took a long route to destroy the machine gun on the right side, but I can't remember anymore.

 

[patsu]

This last mission has a baddie you can barely hit with enough CP to heal herself and her army every turn. It appears you need multiple people to fight her as you have to shoot her from behind but can't run behind her once she's seen you. To get my forces up there and do her in will take ages. Alternatively I can start with just Alicia, run her through grabbing checkpoints and gunning tanks, and spawn people at the top, without consuming too much of my free time!

I did both ! Trapping that woman was the hardest since she has long legs. Tried to surround her with 3 shocktroopers and Alicia. Took 2 "Undogdeable Shots" + friendly fire to bring her down. Everybody died except for Alicia ^_^

That was the level where my "Mysterious Body" Alicia got shot down while running past gunning armored unit

I was wondering yesterday if the design of VC was an unwanted mix? I wonder if the original idea was a strategy game, but someone or other in charge with JRPG experience made sure that was included, producing a hybrid? Or was the starting design a JRPG but the combat mechanics were changed from 'party of three taking turns' to 'large party taking turns with some realtime element'?

I think it was a JRPG inspired by Gears of War's cover system.

Might just as well tell what I did :smile:
I think I took the tank down with a lancer first, then I proceed upstairs to the left side. It's good idea to shoot a smoke mortar with your tank to the upper end of the stairs or little bit higher to block Selvaria's fire against your advancing troops. In essence I activated the lifts on both sides and sandwitched Selvaria between my two tanks and did alternate fire with them, when I shot her with Edellweis, she would turn her back to Shamrock and vice versa.

I didn't have enough money to upgrade both tanks. Usually I left Shamrock untouched (i.e., at the base). I sent all my troops to the right side. Then drove Edelweiss alone to continue all the way left and hook back (because Selvaria now ran towards my foot soldiers). Then send in my shocktroopers one after another to weaken her. Followed last by Alicia to finish her off.

I might have took a long route to destroy the machine gun on the right side, but I can't remember anymore.

I routed Alicia behind the MG to take it out.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Might just as well tell what I did :smile:
I think I took the tank down with a lancer first, then I proceed upstairs to the left side.

The plan I came up with is run Alicia right, taking out tanks on the way (just for fun), all the way up to the top. Should take two turns. Edelweiss will get bashed with some heavy fire but tough! At the top I'll grab the central checkpoint and rope in some [strike]suckers[/strike] reinforcements. I'll head Alicia to the left and alternate fire between her and whoever's in base, with Selvaria turning to face each one in theory.

I may also run Alicia up the right, capture those checkpoints, then spawn some extra muscle to wipe out every living Imp chump before taking out Selvaria!

 

[Rolf N]

I actually cleared both sides on that mission with ~balanced split teams (at least one of snipers, lancers, scouts up on each side). Edelweiss up the left side, Alicia up the right side.

It was hard. Snipers could hardly ever get shots in due to the railings blocking so much fire. I exploited the scout class a lot, but in the end I was happy that I could do it without having to restart with a different team composition. Also felt good to move a whole team through a map, as opposed to the usual routine of letting two or three "champions" do the work while everyone else idles back at home base.

I dunno if the game makes particular scripting provisions for it, but I have a hunch that you're supposed to send Alicia in close to defeat

Spoiler

Selvaria. It's pretty easy. Alicia tends to trigger her free full healing a lot in this mission and firing at Selvaria twice should be enough to win. Making it there is the hard part.

 

[3dilettante]

I'm a little fuzzy how I beat that level initially.
I didn't make too much use of armor, and I bypassed using the elevators for capturing enemy camps and spawning reinforcements.
Actually, I don't think I've ever used the lifts in that level.

The enemy AI, such as it is, is pretty content on leaving your starting point alone, aside from some pretty survivable potshots.

On a power playthrough where I was just trying to one-turn every level that I could, it was Alicia all the way.

Spoiler

With the best gun, awakened potentials, possibly upped defense:
Run her heedless of fire up the right staircase and towards the first enemy camp, with any luck Alicia's resist crossfire will kick in before Selvaria's machine gun has much time to work. Most infantry you see will be a sniper who won't shoot or a trooper you can evade relatively quickly.
With luck, you will also get Alicia's double movement.
If health runs low, you can use ragnaid (possibly getting Alicia's health boost), or just shoot a sniper in the face and most likely get all her health back anyway (the face part is not necessary, but is satisfying).
Capture the first camp (also not necessary, but still), move up the outer path past the gattling. Hopefully, Alicia's resist crossfire kicks in again.
Run past the tank, capture the second right-side camp. *fuzzy memory here*I believe if you push your luck you can turn on demo boost and blow up the tank from behind, as it is possible to have a fair amount of points to spare for something that is not necessary.*end fuzzy memory*
The main square of the upper deck with Selvaria has a few sets of sandbags past the camp you can camp Alicia behind.
Have her and her undodgeable shot to the head take care of the rest.
Selvaria is barely visible (lighting, distance), but with the highly accurate weapons you have at the upper equipment tier, the reticle should be enough information on whether you have a shot. Alicia is pretty good at ducking Selvaria's return fire.
It's slightly luck-based, although if you are very conservative on points it takes seriously bad luck to not end the fight in the first turn.

This sets up the scinematic sequence and Selvaria's last hurrah I narrated as "And so ended the biggest set of breasts in the game"
Maximilian was too cavalier about disposing of half the game's polygon budget, methinks.

 

[patsu]

The enemy AI, such as it is, is pretty content on leaving your starting point alone, aside from some pretty survivable potshots.

I remember Selvaria would scan the battlefield and take a shot at anyone if he/she was in the line of sight. It's usually a straight kill. So I needed to hide behind tanks from all the enemies or use the smoke grenade to provide cover for all.

Also, there is a wide variance of performance as you level up.

Spoiler

While Alicia at high enough level will own every single living weapon in the VC universal, my Alicia could not dodge Selvaria's fire at all. I remembered wrongly. I think she "died" too upon Selvaria's return fire.

It was one of the Shocktrooper girls (Rosie ?) who managed to survive Selvaria's return fire, and killed her with a second "Undodgeable Shot" on the next turn.

I probably should play the side missions to level up my Alicia to a god.