Senjo No Valkyria (Valkyrie of the Battlefield) : Best Cell shading ever?

[patsu]

Can't say I've noticed anything out of bounds by anime norms but I'm sure you see everything wrong about the anime.

Stick to the point: The anime is inferior to the game in presentation, music, story and overall quality judging by the scope of episode 1.

Lower quality? How can you quantify art design like that? It's just different. Some look almost like they do in the game others like Alicia have been noticeably changed.

Easy. Inconsistency. Perspective, proportion and animation smoothless is off.

Almost like ? That means they are different right ?

Oh puhlease. Maturity is in the story, not in replacing a couple of insignificant background characters.
Exactly. So quit judging one episode against an entire videogame in terms of presentation and maturity.
Oh yea, I forgot, the videogame is nigh indistinguishable from a 2D painting so it's okay to compare the anime's drawing to the videogame. And Valkyria Chronicles is about standard for an anime tv series.

Maturity is in presentation and story. Period. There are better anime in art quality but my point is: Anime is different and lower quality than the game.

The sketch shading is fine. If by water color effect you mean the more cartoony texture design(which is no different than the kind of textures seen in other anime-like games like the Tales of series) by it being anime it's got that.

Fine by your standard. Failed by mine.

Any presentation problems you see in the anime are equaled in the videogame with the background cutscenes I've mentioned. Even most other cutscenes were set within the same limited space. The game had few dynamic cutscenes.

Irrelevant. Anime is different and lower quality. That's my point.

I'm sure it will.

Many of the cutscenes were to push along the darcsen and band of brothers drama.

That's your opinion. I have nothing to add. I prefer to see the actual result.

Some of them were unnecessary and others went on for too long. No, not really. The videogame's cutscenes could've used editing. I'd think you'd like dragged out and unnecessary cutscenes.

And the anime could use even more since it's longer than the video game and adds nothing substantial.

Duh. Are you new to 2D animation?

Thanks for confirming my points. So who thinks the game is perfect ? You seem to be the one talking about it.

EDIT:

I do believe that distinction does need to be made. With 3D you only have to model something once with animation you have to draw several times a second. You can't pack in as much detail into traditional animation for obvious reasons. Two different mediums that clearly look like it(despite the sketch shading in the videogame looking really good it still looks 3D).Then you'd need a CG house not a traditional animation house. Besides, CG shows/movies aren't popular in Japan. The CG for the Appleseed movies had to be outsourced and despite it being theatrical movies it still didn't look much better than CG tv shows we've seen here.

So ? It's part of the reasons the game has better quality.

As for CG movie popularity in Japan, I believe it depends on the overall movie quality. Not necessarily because of shallow argument like it's CG or non-CG:
http://www.pixar.com/companyinfo/press_box/news/20000313-71118.htm

Conversely, Miyazaki's movies sell well because they are great productions and have imaginative storytelling.

 

[vazel]

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[Shifty Geezer]

I do believe that distinction does need to be made. With 3D you only have to model something once with animation you have to draw several times a second.

Yes, but that's distinct from the question of which looks better.

This is untrue :
"Does image A look as good as image B? Yes, because although it is lacking in detail and content, it is on a different medium where increased detail is not cost effective."

That's as wrong as saying a 320x200 image on an ancient 1950s B&W TV is as good as a 1080p image on a new HDTV because the technology isn't capable of better!

The real argument is:
"Does Image A look as good as image B? No. Why doesn't it look as good? Because the cost to produce artwork to that quality is prohibitive." Only no-one was really asking the latter part. Patsu said the anime doesn't look as good as the game, which is true, with good reasons as you've said, yet you've also said the art is as good in the anime

Then you'd need a CG house not a traditional animation house.

Who says anime TV series have to be created by hand?

Besides, CG shows/movies aren't popular in Japan.

You'd have to have a clear understand of why that's the case if true. Are you saying that if a computer were to render something that looked exactly like the Pokemon cartoons, they wouldn't be popular because they were rendered by computer?

If it doesn't look like CG so that your audience doesn't know any better, will that affect their appreciation. It's not as if the characters, story, art and presentation count for the nothing. Take the game engine, oversample render it at 12 fps, increase the sketch-effect diversity to reduce repetition in the shadows (may not be a problem in the final game) and of course increase the graphical asset quality where need, and it'll be a cost effective and more visually impressive piece of animation IMO. For those who like the game, this approach would be preferable. For the studio wanting to create an anime within the existing industry and not wanting to invent their own solutions, likely wanting to reach a different audience, the current solution is probably best.

Edit

Like I said I don't see anything wrong by tv anime norms.

But Patsu's comparing the anime to the game, not to other anime series!!! You're arguing a completely different point. You're saying the anime isn't bad by anime standards, comparing it to existing anime fair, and no-one should expect the game to be recreated. But patsu's saying the anime doesn't look as good as the game.

The principal question restated : Do you or do you not think the anime looks as good as the game, irrespective of the image-creation methods or via comparison to any other anime, cartoon, film or games in existence? Side by side, game and anime, would you say the quality of the anime is a match for the quality of the game? If no, you agree with patsu! If yes, you are contradicting your above post where you say the anime can't look as good because of the cost of hand-drawing it all!

 

[patsu]

Oh boy we really struck a nerve with each other didn't we.

Nerve ? Hardly. I only had time to reply quickly. If it comes across as aggressive, then I will be more careful in my response. As you mentioned, people in multiple fora sang priases about the game. Ultimately, the game has its avid fan base. They are not all weeaboos. Even if I don't post anything, the game will still enjoy popularity among those people.

And here I go...I was responding to your artists and perspective comment. The videogame had problems in presentation so I wouldn't hold it on an altar. And the music used is the same from the videogame. As for the story we've only seen one episode so far.

They are your opinion and I have no interest to belittle them. Most importantly, none of these contradicted my points. The game has better quality than the anime. The music scores is the same but the delivery is different (Stereo vs 5.1 + LPCM)

The rest of the posts is rehash. I should stop here in the interest of my time

EDIT:

Okay, now let's compare the videogame to live action. See where I'm getting at? Different mediums.I'm pretty sure it is because traditional anime animation is a part of their culture.

This point is new. Sorry, not interested to compare with non-existing stuff and fuel fictitious arguments. The game art style and the anime's are close enough to warrant a comparison.

Also if you think you're fighting people who think the game is perfect, you may be barking up the wrong tree. They are not here.

 

[vazel]

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[vazel]

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[Shifty Geezer]

This isn't comparing technologies. This is comparing two different art mediums.

An objective analysis of the images, whether different due to technology or creation method, still identifies differences. We have the same image here to compare! the girl and the two soldiers either side and the tree. We can look at the images and see qualitative differences. I listed the objective artistic differences that show the game has a higher image quality than the anime. You agree with me, saying that those differences couldn't make it into the anime because it's hand-drawn, right? But then you say they look the same quality wise, because one is on a different medium! This isn't a subjective argument of which looks nicer, pointellism or cubism. It's not someone stating a portrait by Seurat is better than a portrait by Picasso. This is a comparison of the same image recreated, and the sacrifices made from converting from game to TV series. We can list them. We can tick them off, what features are present or not. Differences in character are subjective so don't factor. Complexity of shading does. Detail in surfaces does. And these are clearly lower in the anime. Which you've explained, sensibly. But which also means the anime is visually inferior to the game. Given a choice between playing Valkyria with it's game look, or instead with the anine look, which would most players prefer? Which would you prefer?

But it still looks CG... What size screens have you seen Valkyria Chronicles in? It still clearly looks 3D.

Any problems you've raised with the engin can easily be fixed going offline. Models and textures can be beefed up. The actually post-processing effect is superb and will fool any viewers, I'm sure, maybe with a couple of tweaks if it suffers from repetition.

 

[patsu]

Both have problems.

So ? Everything in this world has problem. No one says Valkyria Chronicles is perfect.

Any problems in story and presentation(the cheesey drama and drawn out cutscenes) the anime has are present in the videogame too.

The same problems can be more severe in the anime because they need to fill out the time. It can also appear less convincing because of silly interactions between the 2 kid soldiers.

The art fits each own's medium.Again, do you even have a $3k+ audio system to take advantage of the LPCM? As for 5.1 the Blu-ray will probably have that.

Why must it be $3K ?

The game has 5.1, which doesn't even need expensive speakers to tell. I can recognize that the music plays nicer in the game. If you can't, that's your business.

If I want to, I can play the game on $100,000 Genesis speakers (just one speaker for that price, I think) at a friend's home because he bought the damn speaker company. So what ? It doesn't buy me additional argument. The game has better sound production than the anime. Full stop.

 

[vazel]

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[vazel]

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[patsu]

But the problems are about the same from what we've seen so far. The videogame has problem with drawn out and unnecessary cutscenes. The anime has problems with padding according to you. The videogame has problems with textures and polygons. The anime has problems with detail.

Yes, yes. Everything has the "same" problem if they can be filed under the same category. The degree/seriousness of the problems doesn't matter. I don't even need to argue this point since I'm not going to watch the anime.

And yes, everything which has a problem cannot be praised.

In order for someone to be able to distinguish LPCM you do need some really expensive high grade speakers.We've established that. And the blu-ray of the anime will most likely have 5.1.

No you don't. I could and you can't. That's the bottomline.

And the blu-ray of the anime will most likely have 5.1.

There is no Blu-ray Valkyria Chronicles anime now, my friend. So my comments still stand. The audio production in the game is better

 

[vazel]

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[patsu]

haha
It can be praised. Just not worshipped to the point where everyone are blind fanboys.

Huh ? Who's worshopping Valkyria Chronicles ? Using what ? No one says VC is perfect ? No one claim VC is the best looking video game. Are you sure you're in the right forum ?

Excuse me for providing a counterpoint to all this worship. I mean really, a real watercolor painting?

Excuse you for what ? If people can see the watercolor-ness in the game, it's not your problem.

You're wrong. High quality audio needs to be able to reproduce the frequencies perfectly and with subtletly.

Ha ha... who's talking about perfect frequency ? Taking the extreme in debate is never a good start. You can't tell the difference between 5.1 vs stereo on a regular 5.1 system ?

 

[vazel]

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[patsu]

But it doesn't look like a real one...

I think you misunderstand art. It doesn't have to look like the real watercolor art to look amazing. It can look like a digital watercolor art and still look great.

Yea, that's what I thought.

And you people are saying this game looks like a real watercolor and are arguing me to death over it. Who's extreme here?

Yes, it can look like a watercolor art in the digital medium. So ? They like it. I like it. That's more than enough.


EDIT:

Haha. The problems for both about even out.

That's for you, my friend. Art is not algebra or calculus. I don't even understand what you mean by even out here.

 

[vazel]

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[patsu]

I get that its artistic qualities are based on a painting and comic book/manga but it doesn't look like anywhere near like a real one in order for people to be doing double takes like many are claiming.

...plus examples...

And ? If it looks good, people will gush about it. They have full right to do so, without your permission.

 

[vazel]

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[patsu]

Exactly! Two different mediums.

They are 2 separate arguments.

I get that they are 2 different mediums. BUT given the same watercolor anime look of the same casts and settings, the game clearly has better production than the anime !

To "even out" the outcome using poly counts, textures, etc. like you mentioned, you have to establish something like N poly counts = X textures = say, 70 beauty points. They don't make sense because poly counts and texture resolution do not directly equate beauty.

The game can establish a better look using lesser polygons and more detailed textures, and overall tighter presentations. See the difference ?

And I'll have a right to provide my perspective on all the gushing.

I didn't say you can't ? But you consistently labelled people for exaggerating when they may not. All of the comments can be truthful and the picture would still be intact -- just because of our preferences. Someone who praises Valkyria Chronicles does not have to be weeaboos either.

 

[vazel]

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