SEGA - 3DFX circa 1997

[Sonic]

Megadrive, that's not the case. The Real3D 100 is weak and crippled compared to the 1000 used in Model 3. What's the point of having a PPC chip when the chip powering Model 3 was a PPC? As I am saying, the port was bad. There's not much to argue about it, it certainly looked better than the Saturn only port. That's about it though. Such an upgrade would have costed about $100 to the consumer and that's a bit too high for an upgrade. SEGA knew that from the experience they had with the 32X.

There's really not much to argue about here, it's not like I'd be having trouble remembering such controversy here.

 

[Megadrive1988]

.
.
absolutely true Lazy8s.


I still am digging around the net to find out anything on the actual development of a Real3D-based Sega console and/or Real3D-based upgrade for Saturn. it either does not exist (beyond proposal on paper)
or was so secret it didnt find its way onto the internet. there is next to no info on the Sega-Nvidia developed NV2, but we know it exists (not hard to find in Google)

 

[akira888]

And there was no Ultra64 hardware. Cruisin was the TMS32031+ADSP2105 combo, and Killer Instinct was a MIPS R4600+ADSP2105. Ultra64 was a marketing scheme by Nintendo.

You remind me of a funny incident back in 95 or so. Peter Main (or maybe Ken Lobb) was having an interview with some kiddy mag (maybe GamePro) and he held up the KI1 board for a photograph and said that it was a "real life Nintendo 64." The funniest things were firstly that anyone with half a brain could look at the sea of chips on that board and tell that there was no way that was going to be a mass-market device, and secondly that NO chips from that board made it into the N64!

 

[Megadrive1988]

Yeah the Crusin USA and Killer Instinct arcade machines have nothing whatsoever to do with the Project Reality / Ultra 64 / Nintendo 64. there is no RCP in either of those arcade boards. looking at the games, it is obvious they don't have the Nintendo 64 'look'

from what I remember Crusin' USA arcade is more sprite-based than polygon-based in graphics. but the N64 version was more poly-based than sprite based (i think N64 ver was a mixture of both tho)

silly marketing stunt on Nintendo's part.

 

[Fox5]

32x was $200, not $100. Might as well have bought a new system for that price.
Anyhow, upgrades that do more than just fix a mild flaw in the system(like the memory upgrade on the n64) are pointless, especially when they come out like 5 years after the system's release. May as well just release a seperate system as the 'upgrade' hardware will completely eclipse the hardware it is upgrading by that point. When you upgrade a pc to a new video card, you don't keep the old one in it(unless you have some strange reason like compatibility for doing so), and even if you could, after even 2 years the old hardware would be so outdated the benefit would be minimal. Though I suppose for a primarily 2d system like the saturn, a 3d add in wouldn't have been too bad, except it already had 3d and 2d games had already taken a backseat, so why limit more powerful hardware to a bad base?

Also, wasn't the virtua fighter 3 arcade system around $10,000? I'd like to have seen a $100 version of that with even 1/4 the power.(however, if the system was $1,000, then I could see a cheaper version being made)

 

[Reznor007]

Megadrive, that's not the case. The Real3D 100 is weak and crippled compared to the 1000 used in Model 3. What's the point of having a PPC chip when the chip powering Model 3 was a PPC? As I am saying, the port was bad. There's not much to argue about it, it certainly looked better than the Saturn only port. That's about it though. Such an upgrade would have costed about $100 to the consumer and that's a bit too high for an upgrade. SEGA knew that from the experience they had with the 32X.

There's really not much to argue about here, it's not like I'd be having trouble remembering such controversy here.

Technically Model3 didn't use the Real3D 1000. It was kind of similar though. This was learned from people working on a Model3 emulator(already runs a few games).

 

[Reznor007]

And there was no Ultra64 hardware. Cruisin was the TMS32031+ADSP2105 combo, and Killer Instinct was a MIPS R4600+ADSP2105. Ultra64 was a marketing scheme by Nintendo.

You remind me of a funny incident back in 95 or so. Peter Main (or maybe Ken Lobb) was having an interview with some kiddy mag (maybe GamePro) and he held up the KI1 board for a photograph and said that it was a "real life Nintendo 64." The funniest things were firstly that anyone with half a brain could look at the sea of chips on that board and tell that there was no way that was going to be a mass-market device, and secondly that NO chips from that board made it into the N64!

Well...sort of. The R4600 was the core of the RCP. However, the rest of the board was dedicated for the arcade. Most of the chips are RAM for the graphics that are loaded off the hard drive and basic logic IC's. There are also a few custom chips, and an IDE controller(I have a KI2 PCB+drive).

 

[Reznor007]

Yeah the Crusin USA and Killer Instinct arcade machines have nothing whatsoever to do with the Project Reality / Ultra 64 / Nintendo 64. there is no RCP in either of those arcade boards. looking at the games, it is obvious they don't have the Nintendo 64 'look'

from what I remember Crusin' USA arcade is more sprite-based than polygon-based in graphics. but the N64 version was more poly-based than sprite based (i think N64 ver was a mixture of both tho)

silly marketing stunt on Nintendo's part.

Crusin'USA/World are both poly based. Software poly, but 3d none the less The N64 was too, but it had to cut the textures down to 4K for it's crappy texture cache, and ran through the N64 "blur-o-matic" bilinear hack. The music sucked compared to the arcade as well(the arcade was mono using an MPEG-like sound format). The arcade was medium resolution as well, N64 is standard res.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Megadrive, that's not the case. The Real3D 100 is weak and crippled compared to the 1000 used in Model 3. What's the point of having a PPC chip when the chip powering Model 3 was a PPC? As I am saying, the port was bad. There's not much to argue about it, it certainly looked better than the Saturn only port. That's about it though. Such an upgrade would have costed about $100 to the consumer and that's a bit too high for an upgrade. SEGA knew that from the experience they had with the 32X.

There's really not much to argue about here, it's not like I'd be having trouble remembering such controversy here.

Sonic,

Ok the port of VF3 to Saturn upgrade was bad, I'm
not gonna dispute that, but what are you saying this
upgrade cart was using: Real3D, PowerVR, 3Dfx,
Nvidia or something else? I've never seen a definitive
answer on this, other than rumor and speculation

R3D-100 was weaker than R3D-1000 for sure, but
the R3D-100 must have been better than Voodoo1,
PowerVR1. or most any other PC 3D chip of 1996-1997.



Renzor:

Technically Model3 didn't use the Real3D 1000.
It was kind of similar though. This was learned from people
working on a Model3 emulator(already runs a few games).

I've never seen anything to contradict the Model 3 using
R3D-1000. I was sure it used twin R3D-1000s, each of which
produced 750,000 textured pps with AA, lighting and the works,
for peak performance of 1.5Mpps and the ability to sustain 1Mpps.
Are you sure this emulator is not for Model 2? The Model 2 did not
use R3D, it used R3D's forerunner, from Martin-Marietta.

 

[Sonic]

You don't see any such information as it's not available to the public in any single way. I'm talking about an upgrade cartridge to be plugged into the Saturn cartridge drive that had many different possibilities. I'm not going into specific details because that's not really allowed on my part. Yes, I am talking about Real3D in the upgrade cart.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Sonic is absolutely correct, there is NO solid info or details about any Lockheed Martin Real3D chip or chipset for either a Saturn upgrade, or a standalone console, on the web or usenet. there *is* a lot of speculation & rumor about it, but NO actual solid confirmed facts or details.

So the Saturn 3D upgrade cartridge *did* infact use Real3D, then. Holy mother of God, I'd give anything to see that thing, or even just read the details. I guess the general public (including me) will never find out. darn...

I guess even the Freedom of Information Act would not help. I wonder though, what the purpose is, to keep it out of the public light, after all this time. Its not like it really matters to Sega anymore, its not going to effect anything for them, whereas it was more relavent back in 1996-1998.

 

[Sonic]

Hey, it can matter to SEGA. There's a lot of R&D projects that never see the light of day or the light of mention through the rumor mill. You'd be surprised how many different proposals SEGA had for the Saturn from different hardware companies. Or the fact that at one point it was going to use an ARM chip, then MIPS, then Hitachi came along. Weird huh?

 

[Megadrive1988]

Not weird at all, to me.

I realize there were a number of Sega hardware projects for the home, in the 1990s, that never saw release. some of these got mentioned in magazines and on the internet, while others did not get mentioned at all. ones we've never heard about. with chips from all kinds of companies. that doesn't surprise me at all. it would surprise me if Sega did *not* have various unheard of projects going on.

the only thing that might surprise me just a little, is how much SEGA wants to keep these projects in the dark, in the present. well, i guess there is no reason for Sega to let us no. it would serve them no benifit at all.

 

[Reznor007]

quote]
I've never seen anything to contradict the Model 3 using
R3D-1000. I was sure it used twin R3D-1000s, each of which
produced 750,000 textured pps with AA, lighting and the works,
for peak performance of 1.5Mpps and the ability to sustain 1Mpps.
Are you sure this emulator is not for Model 2? The Model 2 did not
use R3D, it used R3D's forerunner, from Martin-Marietta.

It's for Model 3(it runs Lost World, Virtual On 2, and Scud Race/Super GT so far). Here's a quote from someone in contact with the devs:

"I actually know who the team members are and they've got no Model 3 documentation. I personally helped them by tracking down people who worked for Real3D (with help from Stilleto, of course ) and nobody kept any of the documentation.

I did find out that the Model 3 graphics hardware has nothing to do with the Starfighter AGP card and isn't exactly a Pro-1000, either."

 

[Megadrive1988]

Well it would be true that Model 3 has nothing to do with the Starfighter cards. Starfighter used the i740 chip. it was designed by Intel and R3D. its a single chip design, not a chipset, and it was horrible. i740 came quite awhile after Model 3, but i740 did not really even have Model 2 quality, and barely Model 2 performance.

Perhaps they are saying that Model 3 isnt based on R3D-100 either, which would also be true.

As far as I know, Model 3 used the R3D-Pro/1000 -in parallel. the Pro-1000 was never used as a gaming card for PCs, only in workstations or very highend professional PC cards. costing thousands of dollars. the R3D-100 was also highend, just not as high as the Pro-1000.

Model 3 spec from System16.com

Main CPU : 32bits RISC PowerPC 603 66Mhz
Graphics Chip : 2 x Lockheed Martin Real3D/PRO-1000
Sound CPU : 16bits 68EC000 11.3Mhz
Sound chip : Yamaha SCSP/YMF-292F/"LAKE" FH1 128-step DSP x 2, MIDI interface, 16 bits 64 voices 4 channel, maximum of 16.5 Mbytes ROM, 64 PCM channels
Audio RAM : 1meg (8 megabits, 512K per SCSP chip)
Main Memory : 8 Mbytes 66mhz Ram, graphic ROM maximum of 64 Mbytes, backup RAM 64 Kbytes
Video resolution : 24KHz 496(H)x384(V) one or two plane 24khz, It uses the VGA pinout however. And, the voltage levels of the video output is at VGA levels (.7vdc Peak to Peak)
Scroll Window : two plane (24KHz/two plane mode), 16 colours/32,768 1024 palette x 2 bank, 256/32,768 64 palette x 2 bank
Geometrizer : 1,000,100 polygons/s for square polys, 2,000,200 for Triangle polys
Renderer : 60,000,000 pixels/s
Video : Full Color Texture Mapping, Tri-Linear Interpolation, Micro Texture, Shading High-Specula Gouraud Shading , Fix Shading, Flat Shading, Texture & Edge Multi Layered Anti-Allasing, Lighting Effects, Parallel Light, 4 Spot Light, Pin Spot Light, Special Effect Zoning-Fog, 32 Levels of Translucency.
Board composition : CPU + VIDEO + ROM boards
Others : 10mbs Connection, calendar IC

 

[Reznor007]

For what it's worth, the information was found out after the last System16 update. Sixtoe knows about the M3 emu now, and will probably update the site in a few weeks. The information there now is what was thought to be true. Another example found out a while back is the Konami Beatmania hardware. Before it was thought to be PSX based like Dance Dance Revolution, but upon further investigation and emulation of the Konami GX hardware, it was found to be essentially GX+hard drive(and is now emulated).

Besides, the M3 emu authors have been in contact with Real3D guys and are positive the GPU isn't Real3D 1000 (it is along the same lines though).

 

[Megadrive1988]

Ok I can buy that

Model 3 not using Real3D-Pro/1000s. kind of a major shock.
(hey Sonic, now THAT is something that would surprise me, heh)

You know, last year, I found out that one of my favorite games from Namco, the arcade-only Rave Racer, used the System 22 board, not the Super System 22 board as I and many people thought.

 

[Reznor007]

Ok I can buy that

Model 3 not using Real3D-Pro/1000s. kind of a major shock.
(hey Sonic, now THAT is something that would surprise me, heh)

You know, last year, I found out that one of my favorite games from Namco, the arcade-only Rave Racer, used the System 22 board, not the Super System 22 board as I and many people thought.

Heh, for a little Sys22/Super Sys22, just check here http://www.middletails.com/mame/

The WIP MAME driver for both systems.

 

[Megadrive1988]

HeHe, MAME is wayyyyy behind. have you seen VivaNonno, the System22 emu? it runs Ridge Racer, Ridge Racer 2 AND Rave Racer, all at 60fps, almost flawlessly! it's awesome to get to play RR1 & RR2, which blows the PSX ver of RR1 and RRR away, and even better, getting to play Rave Racer on VivaNonno, which never came out on any home platform
(the PowerVR1 version was canned and so was the N64 version)

 

[Reznor007]

HeHe, MAME is wayyyyy behind. have you seen VivaNonno, the System22 emu? it runs Ridge Racer, Ridge Racer 2 AND Rave Racer, all at 60fps, almost flawlessly! it's awesome to get to play RR1 & RR2, which blows the PSX ver of RR1 and RRR away, and even better, getting to play Rave Racer on VivaNonno, which never came out on any home platform
(the PowerVR1 version was canned and so was the N64 version)

I know about it, but these are games Vivanono doesn't run. Not to mention it's FAR more accurate. Vivanono can almost be considered a port, as most of the system is simulated instead of emulated. To be honest, the only reason the first release of VN was released was because Stroff(the MAMEdev doing Sys21,22,S22) showed WIP screens of Rave Racer and Prop Cycle. Stroff and the VN devs share information now, but MAME is far ahead in true emulation of the system. VN has to have alot changed to support the other games.