Second source of Kutaragi's new media processor leak found.

[archie4oz]

Yay! Hole-punching time...

Well, this report is identical to what impress.co.jp reported on that infamous Kutaragi "media processor".

Duh... Of course the whole report is the same... They're basically regurgitating stuff from the same meeting!

The history of infighting within Sony group.

Uhhh, you mean YOUR history of Sony infighting as it's neither comprehensive, nor accurate...

1. Kutaragi Ken launhes PSX in the US for $299 against his boss's order to launch it at $399. He was almost fired but kept his job.

First of all, Ohga never "ordered" anything about a price launch. Price reductions themselves started when Teisuke Gotoh (chief designer of the Playstation) took apart a Saturn after its launch and analyzed it's construction and realized that Sega could not compete in a price war because he felt that Sega would have too much trouble cutting manufacturing costs of the Saturn. Kutaragi agreed and later went along with the idea after redesigns led to the 3000 model. The actual price cut took place before the US launch.

Secondly the $299 price was largely determined at a marketing and distribution policy meeting well before even the Japanese launch, where Kutaragi, Maruyama, or Tokunaga weren't even present. Tokunaga senior SCEI exec who eventually went along with it (and later consensus with Maruyama and Kutaragi). The **CONTROVERSIAL** aspect was that the consensus was determined by an SCEI group and announced at E3, and not the typical consensus meeting at Sony Headquarters where all the divisions are informed of major price changes before they're publicly announced.

And no, Kutaragi did not almost lose his job over this. Ohga did threaten to fire him (and everybody else) over his argument with Gotoh over the design of the controller (which Kutaragi rejected). Besides, Ohga was on the way out, and Idei on the way in...

2. Kutaragi Ken kills the handheld developed by Sony headquarter because he had nothing to do with it.

OK, WTF? "Sony Headquarter" doesn't develop anything...

3. Kutaragi Ken prices PSX2 below the price of Sony headquarter's cheapest DVD player in 2001, thereby halting Sony headquarter's DVD sales.

Again, WTF? The PS2 has never been below the price of any of Sony's DVD players. Especially in 2001. The least you could've mentioned was 2000 where Sony had fewer low price DVD players...

These "units" within Japanese keiretsu are really separate companies who have nothing to do with each other, even competitiors in some case.(as is the case with SCEI and Sony Electronic). Of course the political infighting is the norm.

You seriously need to put down the Crichton novel... Keiretsu are an anachronism of the heydays of MITI), never really existed in a tangible sense. Sony was also never a member of the 6 keiretsu that were presumed to exist around the 6 major financial institutions. Also Sony Electronics and SCEI would be a bad example of a keiretsu relationship. Nor would a keiretsu have competitive entites. That defeats the whole purpose of the vertical and horizontal keiretsu theory...

The problem with this "media processor" is that

...There aren't any... (as of yet...)

From which I can deduce the following.

I think "deduce" is a **gross** overstatement... Try "imagine" or "dream"...

 

[Sonic]

Nope, it would have been much weaker if Lockheed were used. They didn't offer anything compelling enough to SEGA except for a scaled down version which would still cost more than anything SEGA could afford. The PVR2DC graphics chip in the Dreamcast was a much more capable product designed for real time graphics processing and I assume not for simulations. Modifier volumes was something I was really interested in and it's something the PVR2DC shined at. Simon Fenny is the man when it comes to PowerVR. Let's not talk about texture compression either, the PVR2DC was really ahead of its time in many ways compared to current graphics cards out at the time. My mouth waters thinking what a PowerVR card could do now in terms of graphics capabilities compared to what Nvidia and ATI have to offer. I don't want to assume that the VS and PS 3.0 tests are meant for specific PowerVR hardware but I am definitely hoping.



Regarding the media processor. It's not clear as to what it is meant for, but I think it is safe to assume that it is to be used in the PS3 as possibly a graphics solution. Or it could be that all along Sony knew CELL wouldn't be doing 1 TFLOPS by itself and has this proc thrown in to even out the system and give it just so much more horsepower. It will be very interesting to see how it is tied in, maybe it's a multichip solution in regards to sound, graphics, and other various functions. It need only to have a rasterizer added if it's not already included.

 

[Paul]

Regarding the media processor. It's not clear as to what it is meant for, but I think it is safe to assume that it is to be used in the PS3 as possibly a graphics solution. Or it could be that all along Sony knew CELL wouldn't be doing 1 TFLOPS by itself and has this proc thrown in to even out the system and give it just so much more horsepower. It will be very interesting to see how it is tied in, maybe it's a multichip solution in regards to sound, graphics, and other various functions. It need only to have a rasterizer added if it's not already included.

Good points Sonic, especially the CPU + GPU = 1TFLOPS thing. While I only expect to see PS3's Cellular based chip at 256GFLOPS I can see a CPU+GPU combo coming up with the TFLOPS figure instead of a single CPU. It's possible.

 

[Vince]

Yay! Hole-punching time...

I haven't seen a beating like that since someone stuck a banana in my pants and turned a monkey loose... - National Lampoons: Vegas Vacation.

 

[chaphack]

Archiez, I like to hear more about Kutaragi Ken guy.

KK is like, looked upon as some Saint by the Sony fans, but is he really THE man behind Playstation success? How is his tech knowledge qualifications or something. His chioce of tech seems "funny", hardly groundbreaking, taking to note with PS1/2. Is he just lucky to be aided by able men at his sides(you speak of Gotoh, and i recall this one prominent patent filing guy, who recently quited SCEI)? Is the Playstation success more like expert marketing from the ever outgoing Sony? Is it just luck that Nintendo/Sega slacked off and allowed SCEI into the game? Is KK more of a salesman or a tech genius?

 

[Megadrive1988]

Wasn't the super expensive model 3 in many ways inferior to the dreamcast?

Model 3 was 1995 technology, released in 1996 (VF3) - the Dreamcast was 1998 technology made from the best low cost components the world had ever seen at the time (Hitachi SH-4 , Videologic/NEC PowerVR2)

Nope, it would have been much weaker if Lockheed were used. They didn't offer anything compelling enough to SEGA except for a scaled down version which would still cost more than anything SEGA could afford. The PVR2DC graphics chip in the Dreamcast was a much more capable product designed for real time graphics processing and I assume not for simulations.

There are articles from Segatech.com and Firingsquad.com that mention the Lockheed Martin Real3D console chip for Sega that got rejected. both articles were pretty much in line with what you mentioned Sonic. They concluded that it would have been similar in performance, more or less, to the i740 chip (aka Auburn) used in the Starfighter cards. Which means it would have been roughly inbetween Model 2 and Model 3 in power and much weaker than the actual PowerVR2 based Dreamcast, and my guess is, somewhat better than 3DO's M2.

 

[Fafalada]

Oh some people are so gonna enjoy this... 8)

From Deadmeat's original thread about Media thing:

Or could we have the Broadband Engine as the CPU and this Media Engine as the GPU of the system ?

Since Kutaragi makes a clear distinction between Cell and this new processor, this is not a Cell derivative.

PSP CPU Core:
- MIPS R4000 32-Bit Core
- 128 Bit Bus
- 1~333 MHz @ 1.2V
... etc

PSP Media Engine:
- MIPS R4000 32-Bit Core
- 128 Bit Bus
- 1~333 MHz @ 1.2V
...etc

Ken obviously made very clear distinction between naming of these two processors in PSP also, but they are the same CPU...

Further following by DM(tm) linear deduction...
Postulate:
(1)When Ken makes a clear distinction between processor(1), and processor(2), they are the same processor.

From (1) and DMs original quote it obviously follows:
Media processor and PS3 CPU are the same processor.

Ergo... concordantly... visa vi...
If PS3 uses Cell, Media Processor MUST be a Cell processor as well.


Unless Deadmeat, you can proove that PSP specs are a lie.







Anyway now I can read the rest of the thread, I see Archie had a lot to say too

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

but is he really THE man behind Playstation success?

Yap.

How is his tech knowledge qualifications or something.

An analog electric engineer trained in the 60's. No real formal education with computer science or architecture.

His chioce of tech seems "funny", hardly groundbreaking, taking to note with PS1/2.

What do you expect, he has no formal training.

Is KK more of a salesman or a tech genius?

A saleman comparable to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

 

[Vince]

Re: ...

His chioce of tech seems "funny", hardly groundbreaking, taking to note with PS1/2.

What do you expect, he has no formal training

Dude, common now. You're agreeing with Chap. He's a great guy, I'm sure he's a genius, pimp, et al... it's Chap.

If you wish to persude the main body of B3D to agree with your ideologies concerning an architecture, then drop this pseudo-KKK type intense hatred, stop the cyclical arguments and form a persuasive argument based on tangible evidence.

I do believe you'll have your hands full surmounting Faf's postulate.

 

[Panajev2001a]

An analog electric engineer trained in the 60's. No real formal education with computer science or architecture.

Funny to see that an analog EE was one the man fighting the hardest to push the digital revolution at Sony corp. in the past years.

Well, to your defense I have to say that there is no such a thing as a Digital EE, it is all analog after all

No real formal education with computer science or architecture

Knowing, from the book "Revolutionaries at Sony", some of what his thesis was in college I think he would dispute this claim.

 

[chaphack]

Funny to see that an analog EE was one the man fighting the hardest to push the digital revolution at Sony corp. in the past years.

HmMMmmMM....i might be wrong, but Sony has been wanting to go digital revolution for awhile. It just happened that Playstation came along, got a lucky break against complacent rivals and now becomes Sony targetted DE Trojan.

Any insider info that evident KK was THE toughest DE fighter in Sony corp?

 

[archie4oz]

Well it's not like it's been written in stone that "Cell" is even a processor and not just an architecture or design philosophy. After all Sony has been preferring to call all of it's recently designed processing components "Engine" (e.g. Emotion Engine, Handheld Engine, VVega Engine, ...Broadband Engine, Media Engine...).

KK is like, looked upon as some Saint by the Sony fans, but is he really THE man behind Playstation success?

VERY few products are the creation of a single person... (e.g. Ohga was the ultimate decision maker, guys like Maruyama and Tokunaga were instrumental in facilitating and environment and hammering out issues that Kutaragi may have not considered). But if you were to accredit a single individual behind the success of the Playstation, then yes Kutaragi would be it...

How is his tech knowledge qualifications or something. His chioce of tech seems "funny", hardly groundbreaking, taking to note with PS1/2.

No less than any other electrical engineer from his time... He did develop an LCD projection system, worked on floppy disc error-correction algorithms, and digital signal processing (visual interpretation of audio, ultimately implemented as the digital VU meter)... Wrote quite a lot of cross assemblers for micro-controllers, after that IIRC he spent most of his time doing CG and image processing research at the Atsugi R&D facility...

Also, what's so "funny" about the "tech?" It's not like they (because it's not something an individual would spontaneously decide)...

An analog electric engineer trained in the 60's. No real formal education with computer science or architecture.

Hahaha! Don't you at least mean the 70's? The guy was born in 1950 for crying out loud! If you go to his alma mater library here then you can read his thesis on applied computer graphics for medical imaging.

Is he just lucky to be aided by able men at his sides(you speak of Gotoh, and i recall this one prominent patent filing guy, who recently quited SCEI)?

I'm not sure "just lucky" is the right wording... Very few successes are the result of strictly individual effort. In the case of the Playstation, it's the work of a lot of people that revolved around Kutaragi's initiative. As for Gotoh (since you bring him up), he's a product design artist who has a habit of spending a lot of time with engineers and machinists on the manufacturing line...

Is the Playstation success more like expert marketing from the ever outgoing Sony? Is it just luck that Nintendo/Sega slacked off and allowed SCEI into the game?

Two things... The Playstation's success is due to several factors. Yes marketing (in terms of PR and market research, and just downright fresh approaches to selling to audiences) is one of them. It also brought about massive changes in developer support networks, distribution techniques, sales methodologies, and simply changed a lot of preconceived notions.

Also, I think it is a bit of a disservice to Sega and Nintendo (well maybe not Nintendo at that time) to claim that they were slacking off. Especially not Sega who did wage a pretty bloody campaign with Sony for the first 2 years of the Saturn before they conceded defeat...

Is KK more of a salesman or a tech genius?

What do you expect, he has no formal training

Neither... An engineer who happens to be an astute idea man when it comes to business. I do agree with you though that Jobs is one hell of a salesman. However Gates is not, he's a very crafty businessman though...

But then again, what do I know... I have no formal training either since I went to a friggin art school...

 

[archie4oz]

Well it's not like it's been written in stone that "Cell" is even a processor and not just an architecture or design philosophy. After all Sony has been preferring to call all of it's recently designed processing components "Engine" (e.g. Emotion Engine, Handheld Engine, VVega Engine, ...Broadband Engine, Media Engine...).

KK is like, looked upon as some Saint by the Sony fans, but is he really THE man behind Playstation success?

VERY few products are the creation of a single person... (e.g. Ohga was the ultimate decision maker, guys like Maruyama and Tokunaga were instrumental in facilitating and environment and hammering out issues that Kutaragi may have not considered). But if you were to accredit a single individual behind the success of the Playstation, then yes Kutaragi would be it...

How is his tech knowledge qualifications or something. His chioce of tech seems "funny", hardly groundbreaking, taking to note with PS1/2.

No less than any other electrical engineer from his time... He did develop an LCD projection system, worked on floppy disc error-correction algorithms, and digital signal processing (visual interpretation of audio, ultimately implemented as the digital VU meter)... Wrote quite a lot of cross assemblers for micro-controllers, after that IIRC he spent most of his time doing CG and image processing research at the Atsugi R&D facility...

Also, what's so "funny" about the "tech?" It's not like they (because it's not something an individual would spontaneously decide)...

An analog electric engineer trained in the 60's. No real formal education with computer science or architecture.

Hahaha! Don't you at least mean the 70's? The guy was born in 1950 for crying out loud! If you go to his alma mater library here then you can read his thesis on applied computer graphics for medical imaging.

Is he just lucky to be aided by able men at his sides(you speak of Gotoh, and i recall this one prominent patent filing guy, who recently quited SCEI)?

I'm not sure "just lucky" is the right wording... Very few successes are the result of strictly individual effort. In the case of the Playstation, it's the work of a lot of people that revolved around Kutaragi's initiative. As for Gotoh (since you bring him up), he's a product design artist who has a habit of spending a lot of time with engineers and machinists on the manufacturing line...

Is the Playstation success more like expert marketing from the ever outgoing Sony? Is it just luck that Nintendo/Sega slacked off and allowed SCEI into the game?

Two things... The Playstation's success is due to several factors. Yes marketing (in terms of PR and market research, and just downright fresh approaches to selling to audiences) is one of them. It also brought about massive changes in developer support networks, distribution techniques, sales methodologies, and simply changed a lot of preconceived notions.

Also, I think it is a bit of a disservice to Sega and Nintendo (well maybe not Nintendo at that time) to claim that they were slacking off. Especially not Sega who did wage a pretty bloody campaign with Sony for the first 2 years of the Saturn before they conceded defeat...

Is KK more of a salesman or a tech genius?

What do you expect, he has no formal training

Neither... An engineer who happens to be an astute idea man when it comes to business. I do agree with you though that Jobs is one hell of a salesman. However Gates is not, he's a very crafty businessman though...

But then again, what the hell do I know... I have no formal training either since I went to a friggin art school...

 

[chaphack]

thanks archiez.
good insights to know about, rather than "some" guy snotty remarks.

ANYWAY, so KK is more of a pusher than a design chief? i mean, i read part of the book pana mentioned, "Revolution Sony". KK sounds more like a seller of an idea("i want 3D! i want many polygons! i want a CD drive! i want Namco/Square/Enix on board! i want new retail/distro methods!" etc) with just a small part in working out the actual hardware.

 

[notAFanB]

HmMMmmMM....i might be wrong, but Sony has been wanting to go digital revolution for awhile. It just happened that Playstation came along, got a lucky break against complacent rivals and now becomes Sony targetted DE Trojan.

in my experience almost nothing 'just happens'. ppl see oppotunity and push their agandas/plans through what little space presents itself.

also their rivals were hardly complacement, they were simply outsold, out marketed and failed to matchthe momentum (in the long run) that Sony put up with PS1. (SEGA I 'm looking at you)

EDIT: er basically what Archie posted really. in effect he's the 'vision' guy that every corporation should have a couple of (read Bill gates/Richard B).

 

[chaphack]

Sega who did wage a pretty bloody campaign with Sony for the first 2 years of the Saturn before they conceded defeat...

IIRC, Saturn did very well against PSX in the early Japan days, even trumping Sony sales. But Sega totally fubared their US launch and allowed Sony to catch em all!

Nintendo was too laxed in relying on their age old SNES + expensive but profitable cartridges deal, for a lil too long. Square Enix got "bored" and had to go PSX CD, seeing Sega major mistake in the US.... what choice do they have..

 

[notAFanB]

IIRC, Saturn did very well against PSX in the early Japan days, even trumping Sony sales. But Sega totally fubared their US launch and allowed Sony to catch em all!

yes the Saturn had a great honeymoon period in Japan (best set of 2D title to date IMO). I don't know about the US but the european campaign for hte saturn didn't go so well and were overshadowed by:

a: better looking initial launch titles (for the most part)

b: better exposure.

c: better variety

in effect Sony got alot of things right, much like MS today, but unlike Ms there was no 'lead' to overcome.

Nintendo was too laxed in relying on their age old SNES + expensive but profitable cartridges deal, for a lil too long. Square Enix got "bored" and had to go PSX CD, seeing Sega major mistake in the US.... what choice do they have..

ah Nintendo, what shall we do with you. possibly one of the biggest mistakes was the delay of the N64 in entering the nextgen race.

in part this (coupled with the market share of the PS1 and hellish rom costs) ensure third party doom for the N64.

 

[London Geezer]

To think that decisions, successes and failures "just happen" or are "byproducts of LUCK" in the 1990's and thereafter, in huge worldwide corporations that have billions upon billions or revenue, assets and capital is, to be fair, EXTREMELY stupid.

Really, i understand the skepticism someone might have against someone else, but saying the above is just plain stupid.

That would make modern economics completely useless. At the end of the day, if something "just happens", then what is stopping Virgin to take over the fleet of Concorde that is being put down round about this time? All they could do is pray really hard to the goddes of Luck and it will happen eventually....

Really, let's just stop saying stupid things please..?

PS: Notice how Deadmeat is replying to Chap (and vice versa) but completely ignores the remarks made by people like FAF, Archie and co....

PPs: I also have to formal training apart from Economics, so what do i know...

 

[notAFanB]

To think that decisions, successes and failures "just happen" or are "byproducts of LUCK" in the 1990's and thereafter, in huge worldwide corporations that have billions upon billions or revenue, assets and capital is, to be fair, EXTREMELY stupid.

Agreed windows of oppotunities are what allow shifts in any industry, sometimes tho you can misread them and mistakes can be made. risk assessment is a tricky topic.

All they could do is pray really hard to the goddes of Luck and it will happen eventually....

nope for that we'll need a sacrificial offering ...volunteers?

 

[Panajev2001a]

thanks archiez.
good insights to know about, rather than "some" guy snotty remarks.

ANYWAY, so KK is more of a pusher than a design chief? i mean, i read part of the book pana mentioned, "Revolution Sony". KK sounds more like a seller of an idea("i want 3D! i want many polygons! i want a CD drive! i want Namco/Square/Enix on board! i want new retail/distro methods!" etc) with just a small part in working out the actual hardware.

Snotty remarks that were not that far from the actual truth

I was not trying to be mean or snotty per-se: I just posted without calming myself down first.

The source of what I was saying is present in that book so it is not like I was not giving a way of double-checking what I was saying to you and Deadmeat.

An Engineer with a vision and good busyness timing, pretty much like Archie defined him, is more appropriate than a seller of ideas.