SCEI & Toshiba unveil 65nm process with eDRAM

Despite the details being turned down in the GameSpot Mafia shots(very obvious in the inaccurate shadows in some screens and completely missing ones in others not to mention the significantly reduced texture quality in many of their shots), they still have some better shots then what you posted
I have noticed you often say that abot GS shots, yet from my experience they almost always match what I get in PC games with all the settings on the maximum.

I'd like to see some Mafia shots made by you on whatever machine you have, if it's in any way possible, because that shot you posted, although nicer looking, is still not something *significantly* better than those Getaway shots like your initial statement implied. Also, I mentioned Primal as an example of much better (technically) looking game than Getaway is.

Mind you, I'm going through all this just because I find your first statement of GF1 performance being equal or better to PS2, just a little too far fetched. Reality, and the games that I've seen so far, just scream otherwise :\
 
BenSkywalker said:
Downgraded from the PC version of course, but still not in the same realm as The Getaway.

Ben, that looks better, but it's still not that big of a jump over The Getaway. Gonna have to agree with Randy.

If your going to get so picky, then look at Mafia's street - looks kinda bare. Marco can probobl;y answer this better, but from what I've heard the streets in the Getaway have over 10 cars on them at most times with a bunch of civilians on the street in the final, shipping, version. Buildings are very boxy, not polygonal intensive at all from those pictures of Mafia.


Primal is one nice looking game. I have a demo of it and it's quite nice.
 
OK, fine then, Ben.

Oh, your rig can be built for cheaper? What a surprise! Let's all go and buy at the House of Ben's Computers then! This "I built my own" thing must be the modern version of chest beating, I swear! :rolleyes: ;)

...and thank God we are onto a fresh page w/o those damn bandwidth hog pix!!! Can we go easy on the big a$$ pix already, or am I the last known guy to be using dial-up these days? :LOL:
 
randycat99 said:
This "I built my own" thing must be the modern version of chest beating, I swear! :rolleyes: ;)

Yeah, ever since those lesbians in NOW threatened to lorena bobbit us if we continied to measure cock size... we needed something new. (I feel their just pist that God didn't give them a penis.. anyways ;) )
 
Marconelly-

I have noticed you often say that abot GS shots, yet from my experience they almost always match what I get in PC games with all the settings on the maximum.

Some of it is very obvious. Look at the draw distance in some of the images they have compared to others. They lowered the detail settings, anyone who has played the game should be able to point it out quite easily. For some of the images, it appears to be some serious JPEG artifacts(compressed way too much) and someone hosed the gamma.

I'd like to see some Mafia shots made by you on whatever machine you have, if it's in any way possible, because that shot you posted, although nicer looking, is still not something *significantly* better than those Getaway shots like your initial statement implied.

Perhaps is I suffer some serious eye damage I won't see it either, though I suspect I'd have to be near blind. If you can't see the huge difference between them, you are in luck. You should be able to skip the next generation of consoles. The Getaway looks like ass, although it sounds like it should play quite nicely. I had shots up before the Basement went down, now I don't have anywhere to upload them to.

Also, I mentioned Primal as an example of much better (technically) looking game than Getaway is.

Post screen shots.

Randy-

Oh, your rig can be built for cheaper? What a surprise! Let's all go and buy at the House of Ben's Computers then! This "I built my own" thing must be the modern version of chest beating, I swear!

A retarded monkey could build a computer. It isn't chest beating, it's saying if you buy pre built... well.... don't apply to MENSA ;) Go to www.newegg.com and look at prices for components. After you get them, it is simply a matter of plugging a few wires together and tightening some screws. I honestly naturally assumed anyone on these boards would build their own, that is a given even over at Anand's. Finding a good deal on parts when building your own simply means you are not retarded, certainly nothing to boast about(unless you find some insanely good deal ;) ).

...and thank God we are onto a fresh page w/o those damn bandwidth hog pix!!! Can we go easy on the big a$$ pix already, or am I the last known guy to be using dial-up these days?

No, I'm with you(no bb available :devilish: ). After they load once though they are in my cache so it's no big problem for me.

Vince-

Ben, that looks better, but it's still not that big of a jump over The Getaway.

mafia_screen023.jpg


getaway_screen005.jpg


Mental note to self- Vince is blind, it isn't his fault ;)

If your going to get so picky, then look at Mafia's street - looks kinda bare. Marco can probobl;y answer this better, but from what I've heard the streets in the Getaway have over 10 cars on them at most times with a bunch of civilians on the street in the final, shipping, version. Buildings are very boxy, not polygonal intensive at all from those pictures of Mafia.

Cars on the street, none of the shots posted for Mafia were downtown, there isn't that much traffic on the outer portions of the city, same with pedestrians. As far as buildings and polygon complexity, it seems that the Getaway shots posted are more complex then those posted from Mafia. I don't know if the Getaway buildings are the norm, the ones for Mafia aren't.
 
First off- damn you and your big a$$ pix invading page 3!!! :)


BenSkywalker said:
A retarded monkey could build a computer.

Evidently, yes. :p

It isn't chest beating, it's saying if you buy pre built... well.... don't apply to MENSA

It sure comes up a lot to not be deemed chest beating, IMO. I'm not sure if your statement above can be read at all w/o coming off a bit arrogant. I think you will find that practically all products can be built cheaper DIY- cars, speakers, furniture, extensions to the house, farming, raising livestock, the list goes on forever. Should everybody be faulted for buying any of these things, when they could hypothetically build it given enough time and thought? That's a little ridiculous if you ask me. If it is your hobby to do so, fine. If it isn't, guess what- you are just like anyone else, not a retard as you infer. I feel comfortable installing a new HD or extra memory, but that is about as far as I go. So what? I'd rather do something else than build a computer from scratch. I'm just not impressed at all if someone says they can build an "ultimate" computer for $500 or whatever, if they are just doing one-off's. If they are in production, selling in volume, include a proper warranty program, and tech support at those prices, that I would be impressed with.
 
After all the talk, it seems that Ben main points are no DOT3 support in GS and the lower texturing capabilities of PS2.

Well DUH! We all know about that since like 2 years ago? :oops:
Sure it is a big boo boo for Sony to miss out on DOT3 but PS2 tech predates GF1 IIRC.
I dont even remember any DOT3 enabled games on DC even though the PVR inside it supported the function.

Hitman 2 looked surprisingly good on the PS2, in case anyone wants to talk about PC -> PS2 ports. 8)
 
mafia_screen023.jpg


This shows a great jump over Getaway?
Wow color me unimpressed...
Hey, i gladly admit that PS2 has NOTHING, NOTHING, NIL, NOUGHT in texturing over current PC games, but at least find a better example.
 
I am not saying that Mafia does not look better - it would be impossible for a machine with 32MB of RAM to compete in textures with a Machine with 128, 256, etc MB of RAM. Besides, I guess it all depends on what you consider 'significantly' better.

My point, that you started and now seem to be avoiding, is that besides the sheer amount of displayable textures (which basically only depends on the amount of memory) I don't see anything of real-world interest where GF1 would be able to compete with PS2, and sustain a decent framerate. Even games with lots of texturing run very problematic on that level of GF hardware, from what I've seen (Giants) and I can only imagine how it would run a game like Mafia, even with the settings reduced.

There are several existing examples that I can think of where PS2 performance just kills that of my GF2 PC. The last that I clearly remember was when I compared Baldur's gate on PS2 with Dungeon Siege on PC. Not only BG:DA was clearly better looking game (yet DS scored 10 for graphics on Gamespot) it was also running at constant 60FPS where DS crawled like a dog, never going over 30.

Primal screenshots:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/100402/primal/primal_screen012.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/vgnews/052901/primal/primal_screen004.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/e32002/playstation2/primal/primal_screen002.jpg

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/primal_0829_19.jpg
 
A little OT, but...

I used to be a HUGE DIYer, was doing it from the age of 13 and up. Then I went to University, and experienced the horrors of lugging a full tower, 17 inch monitor, speakers, and a zillion other wires to and from every 4 months (UW is trimestered as was the residence).

That experience alone made me sign my life away to Dell for an Inspiron 8100 notebook. I love it so much, I honestly dont think I could ever go back. It has virtually everything I could want: Verily high res LCD (1400x1050), firewire, SPDif out, DVD/CD RW, GF2, TwinView, ethernet, blah blah blah. The only games I want that really tax the system are also available on Xbox, and the ones that aren't are RTS/strat games that zoom happily at 1400x1050 (ie: WC3). Only downside is storage, but thats what a headless P2 jammed full of IDE drives is for ;)
 
GF1 has better features than GS but GS has better performance.
Can we live with that?

One more thing, isnt Carmack targetting GF3 as the base platform for D3?
 
I feel comfortable installing a new HD or extra memory, but that is about as far as I go. So what? I'd rather do something else than build a computer from scratch.

It takes less then an hour to do, and if you already know how to install RAM and a HD, I'm sure you would have no problem whatsoever doing it. The most time consuming and difficult part(which isn't even difficult) of assembling a PC is getting Windows up and running. I honestly didn't think anyone here did not build their own PCs, would explain why some of you have problems with computers I guess(buying a POS OEM rig).

It sure comes up a lot to not be deemed chest beating, IMO. I'm not sure if your statement above can be read at all w/o coming off a bit arrogant. I think you will find that practically all products can be built cheaper DIY- cars, speakers, furniture, extensions to the house, farming, raising livestock, the list goes on forever.

For most of those you need to spend thousands of dollars in tools used to handle to task before you can do them yourself. I've been using an $8 Staples special PC tool kit for years without ever feeling there is something I'm missing ;) Besides that though, if I could build myself say, a Corvette that was faster and better then a Vette or Viper for half the cost, yes I'd do it myself. Essentially with an OEM PC you are buying a Yugo for $50K when you buy pre built(unless you buy specialty, then you are just paying three times too much to get quality ;) ).

It is no hobby of mine, not anymore then taking out the trash is. It is simply a function of what I have to do to get something done right without having to pay an insane amount of money.

I'm just not impressed at all if someone says they can build an "ultimate" computer for $500 or whatever, if they are just doing one-off's.

Neither am I. I am telling you that YOU can save yourself a shitload of money and headaches if you build it yourself. You build your first rig and get up and running right and after a year without a single problem you may change your mind on how your time is better spent. This isn't anything to be impressed with, its akin to telling you that you can buy a PS2 for half the money but you have to buy three different parts and screw them together- while getting a better warranty then what Sony will give you. Tell me, would you do that? If you could drop $100 for a few parts that you had to screw together and got a warranty longer then you would from a store? I sure as hell would without hesitation. It's the same thing with PCs. I get a three year or lifetime warranty on my parts instead of ninety days or a year in case of hardware failure, and there isn't a need for tech support as when you build it yourself you won't fvck anything up like OEMs do.
 
Ben,

only computer I'd ever consider DIYing again would be a Shuttle SFF for a media/data server. Large CRTs and beige cases need to die horrible deaths.

If I had the money, I think I'd buy an iBook for my mom (gives me an excuse to tinker with OSX too).

There are some things, like notebooks, where its worth it to pay for the extra engineering involved over a beige OEM system. That's not to say that I didn't buy my Dell 8100 with 1x64 meg SODIMM and then replace it with 1x256 meg SODIMM from Crucial... ;)
 
D@mn people reply fast to this thread ;)

Chap-

I dont even remember any DOT3 enabled games on DC even though the PVR inside it supported the function.

Huh? IIRC Dot3 debuted for PVR products in Kyro, although I suppose I could be mistaken.

This shows a great jump over Getaway?

If you don't see it, then you should be very happy with a PS2's graphics capabilities.

Marco-

Primal screenshots:

LOL, that's a good one :LOL:

Seriously though, do you have any screenshots that actually show a current build of Primal, ones that look better then TombRaider1 for the PSX? I understand that early development shots of the game look extraordinarily poor, that is a given for any system though.

I am not saying that Mafia does not look better - it would be impossible for a machine with 32MB of RAM to compete in textures with a Machine with 128, 256, etc MB of RAM.

Errr, 512MB system RAM and 64MB VRAM. Mafia runs like crap if you only have 256MB of RAM.

My point, that you started and now seem to be avoiding, is that besides the sheer amount of displayable textures (which basically only depends on the amount of memory) I don't see anything of real-world interest where GF1 would be able to compete with PS2, and sustain a decent framerate. Even games with lots of texturing run very problematic on that level of GF hardware, from what I've seen (Giants) and I can only imagine how it would run a game like Mafia, even with the settings reduced.

You don't happen to run a POS OEM rig too do you? I don't understand why Giants seems to run so incredibly poorly on other people's machines when they are running Win9x.

The last that I clearly remember was when I compared Baldur's gate on PS2 with Dungeon Siege on PC. Not only BG:DA was clearly better looking game (yet DS scored 10 for graphics on Gamespot) it was also running at constant 60FPS where DS crawled like a dog, never going over 30.

CPU limited. You won't find me arguing the virtue of aged desktop PC processors against the EE ;)

Zurich-

That experience alone made me sign my life away to Dell for an Inspiron 8100 notebook. I love it so much, I honestly dont think I could ever go back.

What if you could build you own laptop and save $800 bucks? I'd bet that could influence your choice ;) It is true that unfortunately there isn't any decent selection of open standard notebook parts to build your own, if there were I'd certainly jump on.
 
[oh but it is so easy to build your own...]

Man, it's like trying to tell a Jehovah's Witness you aren't interested...and then they say you are going to Hell if you don't listen...
 
Ben,
i meant that even though the PVR in DC supported DOT3, there are no DC games that has bumpmapping.

As for the mafia image you posted, i do see blurry and repeating textures. i am sure there are better textured PC games out there, but Mafia do not look like one of them.
 
Ben:

You already sort of can, ATI/NV use standard video boards that can be swapped/upgradded in a Dell system, same with the CPU, HD, etc..

But what I mean, is that a notebook is more of a console-esque consumer appliance than a typical computer. That is, there are so many engineering factors, like size/weight/heat/form factor/etc, that it could almost never be entirely DIYed like a beige OEM box. Upgrades, sure, but ground up? Doubt it.

The premium I paid was for the engineering and integrated nature of a notebook, something that is much deserved over a pos Compaq desktop that a retarded monkey could do :p

Only thing I'm waiting for is for someone to make a PCMCIA video-in/tv tuner card :) (the $400 USD Dazzle 1394 video bridge is out of my league :( )
 
Randy-

Hey if you don't want to, could you at least stop talking about PC problems and instead refer to who built your PC? Instead of talking about Windows issues, or PC problems, state Dell or Compaq or whatever POS it is you have. I could find someone to make a strong point about how all cars are absolutely horrible because of the 'car' they own(not mentioning it was a Yugo ;) ).

Zurich-

You already sort of can, ATI/NV use standard video boards that can be swapped/upgradded in a Dell system, same with the CPU, HD, etc..

Uppgrading isn't close to building. Let me pick out which case, battery setup, screen, everything. Then I can choose what weight/power/heat ratio I want. Right now you can't do that AFAIK, and you have to pay an obscene amount for the prebuilt options that the companies offer you. I'd rather have a low clocked Duron with the latest nV chip and a huge amount of RAM with a small HD, unfortunately I can't buy that.

Chap-

i meant that even though the PVR in DC supported DOT3, there are no DC games that has bumpmapping.

The DC doesn't use a Kyro. AFAIK, the DC does not support Dot3.

As for the mafia image you posted, i do see blurry and repeating textures. i am sure there are better textured PC games out there, but Mafia do not look like one of them.

They were from the image selection that was posted on the last page(copy the URL and change the number around). I haven't seen a game on any system that matches the texturing quality of Mafia, I'd be very interested if anyone can post something comparable(so far, all the PS2 screenies in this thread look like Voodoo1 level texturing).
 
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