Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality

[Deleted member 13524]

If Oculus and/or Steam come up with 2nd-gen cheaper alternatives in 2017, I think Scorpio would be much better off just supporting one of those.

Oculus would be the obvious choice, since it already bundles a Xbone gamepad, but pairing with Steam could bring a much needed truce between the companies.

 

[Jay]

Not sure their R&D sufficiently covers it. What have they got in the headset space? Hololens is a different animal. I guess the tracking aspects are the same. Kinect could be good for room level, but you're adding to price then such that the 'right' price point seems unlikely to me. $700 entry level VR in PS4 versus $1000+ better quality VR on Scorpio...are people willing to take a punt on that? I guess it all depends where VR goes this next year.

I have no idea what additional sensors are required, they've done a lot of work in tracking, already got sensors.
HoloLens is a different beast, I was talking about all the work that went into designing a comfortable hmd.
I'm not saying there's no additional investment required, just that it seems like the big ticket stuff had been done (from a point of view of someone who has no idea lol)
my point was that $1000 premium console experience with rift may be too much, and that's why ms may wont a cheaper console vr headset

 

[eastmen]

@hughJ Thanks for the well thought out response. I was one of those people that thought it wasn't worth MS producing a vr solution at this moment in time also.

I just think that most of the tech required for vr MS has already spent on R&D in other areas and just needs to bring them together for vr.
So for little investment they could produce a mid range device(lo and by leveraging the tech, it looks good on the balance sheet.
Even if vr bombs in the gaming market, it could be used in other markets much like hololens. Where as Sony doesn't really have that option?

For MS tieing Kinect 3 to vr could be a huge boom for them. I think they would need to make it a split camera set up and not a single bar like it is now. That way at the very least people would put one on each side of their tv or further out . That way 180 degrees works really well . IT would also help Cortana voice is they put mics in each part.

If its the same hardware they use in HoloLens then pumping out a few million of them for Kinect should reduce prices on the HoloLens side too.

 

[Ike Turner]

If Oculus and/or Steam come up with 2nd-gen cheaper alternatives in 2017, I think Scorpio would be much better off just supporting one of those.

Oculus would be the obvious choice, since it already bundles a Xbone gamepad, but pairing with Steam could bring a much needed truce between the companies.

There's IMO currently more chances of Scorpio supporting the HTC Vive than the Rift:

- Fallout 4 VR -> Zenimax. There's no chances in hell that Bethesda will have this supporting the Rift (on PC or Consoles) if the lawsuit isn't settled by then. All Doom VR and F4 VR demos have obviously been done on the Vive so far.
- USB 3 Ports: The Rift currently requires 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port (+ 2 more USB 3.0 ports for the additional cameras for roomscale I guess) and frankly can't imagine Scorpio having 4 USB ports.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

There's IMO currently more chances of Scorpio supporting the HTC Vive than the Rift:

- Fallout 4 VR -> Zenimax. There's no chances in hell that Bethesda will have this supporting the Rift (on PC or Consoles) if the lawsuit isn't settled by then. All Doom VR and F4 VR demos have obviously been done on the Vive so far.
- USB 3 Ports: The Rift currently requires 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port (+ 2 more USB 3.0 ports for the additional cameras for roomscale I guess) and frankly can't imagine Scorpio having 4 USB ports.

That's all assuming that Microsoft would end up using the current gen Rift or Vive.

It's just as likely that they are collaborating with one or the other for a headset more suitable for consumer adoption (use with Project Scorpio). Current rumors appear to tie Microsoft with Oculus, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.

HTC's lighthouse array isn't terribly consumer friendly. So the Vive is already out of the running for home consoles, IMO. And it appears that HTC is sticking with lighthouses for a while (redesigned lighthouses).

Oculus on the other hand have demonstrated a wireless VR headset concept that uses inside-out positioning without external cameras (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/10/oculus-working-on-wireless-headset-with-inside-out-tracking/ ). Hmmmm. HoloLens uses inside-out positioning without external cameras. Makes you wonder if Oculus and Microsoft are collaborating on this and whether the headset will be using the modified Kinect senor array from HoloLens. Either way whether it uses any Microsoft tech or not, it would negate the need for any physical attachment to the console.

That would also make it extremely consumer friendly. No cords to connect or potentially trip over. No need to stay within the FOV of the camera. Of course there are some questions.

• What's the latency going to be like?
• What's the tracking accuracy going to be like? Zuckerberg mentioned millimeter accuracy, so appears like it should be good.
• What's the battery life going to be like? Battery life shouldn't be that bad. Compared to HoloLens it should have significantly longer battery life as it wouldn't have an entire PC inside of it. And distributing the batteries around the head like HoloLens does, seems to make it (HoloLens) extremely comfortable to wear as weight is equally balanced on all sides.
• How much will it cost? Well, you won't have to include the cost of cameras or lighthouses, although you do have the cost of the internal camera. Compared to HoloLens it wouldn't need the cost of a PC and expensive holographic lenses. I could see it potentially being cheaper than the Rift.

The timing would also be good for this. Presumably if they've already been working on this for a while, there's a good chance it'll be ready by the time Project Scorpio hits.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I don't think Microsoft wants to support roomscale VR, at least not for 2017.

IMO roomscale VR is a can of worms in terms of user-friendlyness and general safety until:
1 - the headsets are completely wireless.
2 - very robust surrounding objects awareness systems are developed, using cameras or lasers embedded in the headset or whatever.

For wired headsets, they can have their kinect detecting head translational motion in seated VR experiences. Or some other future inside-out technology because kinect is probably going the way of the dodo (too expensive and very few people want to pay $100 for it).

 

[Ike Turner]

That's all assuming that Microsoft would end up using the current gen Rift or Vive.

It's just as likely that they are collaborating with one or the other for a headset more suitable for consumer adoption (use with Project Scorpio). Current rumors appear to tie Microsoft with Oculus, but that doesn't necessarily mean much.

HTC's lighthouse array isn't terribly consumer friendly. So the Vive is already out of the running for home consoles, IMO. And it appears that HTC is sticking with lighthouses for a while (redesigned lighthouses).

Oculus on the other hand have demonstrated a wireless VR headset concept that uses inside-out positioning without external cameras (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/10/oculus-working-on-wireless-headset-with-inside-out-tracking/ ). Hmmmm. HoloLens uses inside-out positioning without external cameras. Makes you wonder if Oculus and Microsoft are collaborating on this and whether the headset will be using the modified Kinect senor array from HoloLens. Either way whether it uses any Microsoft tech or not, it would negate the need for any physical attachment to the console.

That would also make it extremely consumer friendly. No cords to connect or potentially trip over. No need to stay within the FOV of the camera. Of course there are some questions.

• What's the latency going to be like?
• What's the tracking accuracy going to be like? Zuckerberg mentioned millimeter accuracy, so appears like it should be good.
• What's the battery life going to be like? Battery life shouldn't be that bad. Compared to HoloLens it should have significantly longer battery life as it wouldn't have an entire PC inside of it. And distributing the batteries around the head like HoloLens does, seems to make it (HoloLens) extremely comfortable to wear as weight is equally balanced on all sides.
• How much will it cost? Well, you won't have to include the cost of cameras or lighthouses, although you do have the cost of the internal camera. Compared to HoloLens it wouldn't need the cost of a PC and expensive holographic lenses. I could see it potentially being cheaper than the Rift.

The timing would also be good for this. Presumably if they've already been working on this for a while, there's a good chance it'll be ready by the time Project Scorpio hits.

Regards,
SB

All of this would assume that Microsoft really cares about VR on Scorpio which as of right now is far from a sure thing. The VR talk during the announcement was IMO nothing more that pre-emptive PR because of PSVR and given that Sony isn't lighting the world on fire with it I won't hold my breath on VR support being high on Scorpio's features selling point list. All Microsoft has to ensure is headset compatibility with the console and this frankly negates the "awkwardness" of the current Lighthouse system which is as of right and in the near future simply the most efficient positioning system and yes I have extensively tested HoloLens it's great for what it is (a dev kit/prototype). Microsoft (or anybody else) won't have an inside-out positional tracking system that could rival the lighthouses before fall 2017 that's a certainty. As long as current HMDs can be plugged in the Scorpio MS will claim "VR support" and ride the wave as long as it feels it needs to for PR purposes. As I said in a previous post; Games/Gaming is definitely not ready for VR yet. VR has a scope vastly wider than the gaming industry and this is what will keep it going for the forcieable futur until the tech and software is ready for prime time (gaming..and not just niche stuff, tech-demo disguised as games etc..). All of this doesn't negate what I said about Oculus and the Lawsuit + USB requirements which are a bigger obstacle that the Lighthouse not being "consumer friendly".

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The VR talk during the announcement was IMO nothing more that pre-emptive PR because of PSVR and given that Sony isn't lighting the world on fire with it I won't hold my breath on VR support being high on Scorpio's features selling point list.

IMO they are. Reviews are very positive and almost every single new user seems to be very satisfied with it. But we'll have to wait for the first sales report to verify that.
Worst estimates are pointing to 2M units sold until the end of 2016 but I honestly expect a lot more, given the general reception so far.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

All of this would assume that Microsoft really cares about VR on Scorpio which as of right now is far from a sure thing. The VR talk during the announcement was IMO nothing more that pre-emptive PR because of PSVR and given that Sony isn't lighting the world on fire with it I won't hold my breath on VR support being high on Scorpio's features selling point list. All Microsoft has to ensure is headset compatibility with the console and this frankly negates the "awkwardness" of the current Lighthouse system which is as of right and in the near future simply the most efficient positioning system and yes I have extensively tested HoloLens it's great for what it is (a dev kit/prototype). Microsoft (or anybody else) won't have an inside-out positional tracking system that could rival the lighthouses before fall 2017 that's a certainty. As long as current HMDs can be plugged in the Scorpio MS will claim "VR support" and ride the wave as long as it feels it needs to for PR purposes. As I said in a previous post; Games/Gaming is definitely not ready for VR yet. VR has a scope vastly wider than the gaming industry and this is what will keep it going for the forcieable futur until the tech and software is ready for prime time (gaming..and not just niche stuff, tech-demo disguised as games etc..). All of this doesn't negate what I said about Oculus and the Lawsuit + USB requirements which are a bigger obstacle that the Lighthouse not being "consumer friendly".

I mostly agree with all this. However, if (big if) Microsoft are collaborating with Oculus on a headset that represents a low risk, low investment option on their part. Especially if it's as little as providing some tech and expertise with regards to inside-out tracking. The big investment in R&D will be on the Oculus side. And Oculus would profit regardless of whether Microsoft uses it for Project Scorpio or not.

I don't necessarily agree with VR having a vastly wider scope than the gaming industry. Wider, most definitely, but not vastly wider. AR has far more impact and relevance in most of those spaces, IMO. FOV isn't nearly as important when gaming isn't involved. And WRT to gaming, the scope for VR is, IMO, extremely narrow compared to traditional PC/console gaming. It brings an unrivaled level of immersion and presence, but it's applicability to games is extremely narrow. Hence why I remain pessimistic as to whether VR gaming will ever truly take off as something other than a very strong niche.

Regards,
SB

 

[hughJ]

There's IMO currently more chances of Scorpio supporting the HTC Vive than the Rift:

- Fallout 4 VR -> Zenimax. There's no chances in hell that Bethesda will have this supporting the Rift (on PC or Consoles) if the lawsuit isn't settled by then. All Doom VR and F4 VR demos have obviously been done on the Vive so far.
- USB 3 Ports: The Rift currently requires 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port (+ 2 more USB 3.0 ports for the additional cameras for roomscale I guess) and frankly can't imagine Scorpio having 4 USB ports.

Neither of these things are relevant for a Scorpio VR launch. Microsoft isn't going to make a full generation hardware platform decision just because one publisher happens to currently be focusing development of two side-project VR ports on a particular PC VR platform. The USB requirements of the current Rift are even less relevant. The HMD requires one USB port and an HDMI port, just as every other HMD does. Repackaging the camera system would be the no-brainer decision here as it would allow them to have a single PS4eye-style stereo camera unit, and/or utilize the Kinect for doing the constellation tracking. Not sure why you're bringing up the USB 2.0 port requirement as that's used for the wireless dongle for XBox One controllers on the PC, obviously something an XBox doesn't need.

 

[eastmen]

There's IMO currently more chances of Scorpio supporting the HTC Vive than the Rift:

- Fallout 4 VR -> Zenimax. There's no chances in hell that Bethesda will have this supporting the Rift (on PC or Consoles) if the lawsuit isn't settled by then. All Doom VR and F4 VR demos have obviously been done on the Vive so far.
- USB 3 Ports: The Rift currently requires 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port (+ 2 more USB 3.0 ports for the additional cameras for roomscale I guess) and frankly can't imagine Scorpio having 4 USB ports.

Zenimax wants money. They will release fallout 4 vr on scorpio because MS will pay for it. At the end of the day the more rifts that are sold = moer money for them to get if their lawsuit wins

2) The rift no longer needs USB 3 ports to work for the sensors . At connect they lowered it to usb 2.0

The rift needs
1 usb 3.0 for the headset
1 usb 2.0 for the xbox one controller
1 usb 2.0 for each sensor
1 usb 2/3 ??? for touch . I'm not sure what it requires

A 2016 machine should be able to handle that just fine. The xbox one has 3 usb plus the Kinect port

I don't think Microsoft wants to support roomscale VR, at least not for 2017.

IMO roomscale VR is a can of worms in terms of user-friendlyness and general safety until:
1 - the headsets are completely wireless.
2 - very robust surrounding objects awareness systems are developed, using cameras or lasers embedded in the headset or whatever.

For wired headsets, they can have their kinect detecting head translational motion in seated VR experiences. Or some other future inside-out technology because kinect is probably going the way of the dodo (too expensive and very few people want to pay $100 for it).

Room scale ? Most likely not but I am sure they will want to support 360 degree gaming. They would need 3 cameras for that or maybe 2 with a wider FOV than what oculus currently has.

As for using the prototype oculus showed. I think it will be way to expensive. First off they are selling the rift for $600/$800. Now your going to want to put camera arrays and a battery into the headset ? Its going to drive the cost up and you'd still need a headset to use it.

On the other hand oculus has guardian which works pretty well.

With a 2 camera 180 degree set up or a 3 camera 380 / room scale set up they will avoid the problems sony is having , offering more room to move in with better tracking . The problem is it will be expensive. However if they are targeting 4k with scorpio then 1200p shouldn't be a problem and they could increase rendering and fsaa levels to give a really good looking experience. or perhaps a rift 2 will launch at a cheaper price point and a better screen set up. going from 1080x1200 per eye to 1130x1440p per eye or something similar would be a big jump up and will still be under 4k resolution so they would be able to drive up msaa and other quality improvements.

If they let oculus handle the sale of the headsets and take a cut of sales then it would be silly for them not too.

On the other hand with vive , Valve doesn't make hardware. So MS would have to liscense out and build its own headset using their tech or buy from someone already making it. It just increases the amount of hands in the pie. With oculus its two parties . With Valve it would be 3 parties or MS would have to make their own headset for it which then they would be move involved.

I dunno its going to be interesting to see what they do. I'm just holding out hope for 16 gigs of ram in the next box

 

[cheapchips]

I'm interested to see what they do. If they launch next year they'll already have decided what their strategy is by now won't they?

 

[hughJ]

There's no real need for them to launch VR right along with Scorpio, and that timeline isn't such that we're likely to see the content problem with VR significantly change by then. PSVR is popular right now because there's a 3+ year backlog of console players that have had their pumps primed, but I suspect the console VR honeymoon will be over long before Scorpio's pre-launch marketing kicks in. Anyone remotely interested in the technology will have already tried PSVR/Rift/Vive by that point and know exactly what it delivers and what it doesn't. Unless there's some crazy market pressure to force them to push out an HMD next holiday season, I think they'd be smart to hold out a little longer for the next iteration of HMD to better differentiate themselves.

 

[Arwin]

That's a big gamble though. The reaction to PlayStation VR is very strongly positive and that may end up reaching a pretty large crowd quick. I think they stand a good chance if they make a really strong partnership with Rift or Vive, but otherwise they may end up being too late. It will be interesting to see. Now that I have PSVR, my interest in anything 4K has dropped significantly. Perhaps if Microsoft can launch next year with a higher resolution headset and good titles and media support they will stand a good chance, but even then price is going to be an issue. They probably can't/won't support VR on Xbox pre-Scorpio, and both Scorpio and a new headset would be more expensive, let alone any controllers for them. Sony is in a much better position to reach mass market VR, and if it takes off, they will be in trouble if they don't have anything by next holiday.

Don't underestimate this reaching a new audience - this is the real thing and many people know about it in theory. Having a world materialise around you actually happening and working, it's very powerful!

They did a good job on the Xbox S with 4K/UHD support, and App support and backward compatibility are strong features.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

With a 2 camera 180 degree set up or a 3 camera 380 / room scale set up they will avoid the problems sony is having , offering more room to move in with better tracking

What problems is Sony having with 360?
In my experience, PSVR's 360° head tracking is flawless.

 

[Arwin]

Headset has leds on all sides. It's the controllers that will not be visible and thus prevent proper 360 gaming without an additional camera.

 

[eastmen]

What problems is Sony having with 360?
In my experience, PSVR's 360° head tracking is flawless.

Arwin responded to you about the problems. But if you look at most users they have a huge amount of swim with the controllers. Its one of the biggest complaints from the review threads. That's because sony has a single camera tracking single large light sources on the move controllers. IF sony had 2 cameras a few feet apart pointed in towards the user they would remove that problem for 180 degree movement.

360 degree play is impossible with move controllers as your body will block the controllers way to often.

Headset has leds on all sides. It's the controllers that will not be visible and thus prevent proper 360 gaming without an additional camera.

thank you for answering

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That's a big gamble though. The reaction to PlayStation VR is very strongly positive and that may end up reaching a pretty large crowd quick. I think they stand a good chance if they make a really strong partnership with Rift or Vive, but otherwise they may end up being too late. It will be interesting to see. Now that I have PSVR, my interest in anything 4K has dropped significantly. Perhaps if Microsoft can launch next year with a higher resolution headset and good titles and media support they will stand a good chance, but even then price is going to be an issue. They probably can't/won't support VR on Xbox pre-Scorpio, and both Scorpio and a new headset would be more expensive, let alone any controllers for them. Sony is in a much better position to reach mass market VR, and if it takes off, they will be in trouble if they don't have anything by next holiday.

Don't underestimate this reaching a new audience - this is the real thing and many people know about it in theory. Having a world materialise around you actually happening and working, it's very powerful!

They did a good job on the Xbox S with 4K/UHD support, and App support and backward compatibility are strong features.

It's the same reaction as Rift and Vive but on a larger scale. I expect it to have the same eventual reaction with heavily loaded sales at the front with interest dying off. I think PSVR has a chance to keep interest going for maybe 1-3 years at best.

It's basically Wii motion gaming all over again, but likely won't be as popular or long lasting as the Wii was. It's far more immersive, but also far more limited and far more expensive.

Regards,
SB

 

[eastmen]

It's the same reaction as Rift and Vive but on a larger scale. I expect it to have the same eventual reaction with heavily loaded sales at the front with interest dying off. I think PSVR has a chance to keep interest going for maybe 1-3 years at best.

It's basically Wii motion gaming all over again, but likely won't be as popular or long lasting as the Wii was. It's far more immersive, but also far more limited and far more expensive.

Regards,
SB

I doubt that.

VR is everywhere and its just going to get bigger. For consumers it started with gear vr then grew to the rift and vive and now psvr and soon google day dream . This is before Apple jumps in too.

The next few years is just going to be vr this and vr that. The content is also coming faster now than it was in the past. IF MS and Apple jump in it will only move faster still.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You can't force consumers to adopt something they aren't interested in. VR may well get a massive push, but if it can't hold people's attentions beyond the initial experiences, it'll be a fad like so many before it.