Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality

Discussion in 'VR and AR' started by idsn6, May 8, 2013.

  1. Ike Turner

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    Which model do you have?
     
  2. Silent_Buddha

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    I've got a 2nd tier Korean monitor. A Wasabi Mango UHD490. If you are interested, I'd recommend doing research into importing 2nd tier monitor manufacturer's displays. One major caveate for gamers is that due to the limitations of HDMI and DP at the time, it can only do 60 Hz at 4k. I actually kind of wish that I'd gotten the UHD550 (55" model) despite the lower pixel density due to my aging eyes.

    Regards,
    SB
     
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  3. Silent_Buddha

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    Well, I finally took the time to head over to a friend's house to try out their Oculus Rift. Some things were worse than I expected and some things were much better.

    First the bad things.

    The resolution is definitely way too low. The lenses aren't enough to get rid of all of the screen door effect. The screen door effect isn't as noticeable if it isn't a solid color (like solid red), however. The blur is annoying to me. I understand it's there to help hide the screen door effect, but it's annoying to me none-the-less. I could never get the "pointer" dot to be centered in my vision, it was always slightly to the right. Not so bad when selecting things to my right, but really bad for me when trying to select things to my left.

    Any motion, including just scrolling a menu from side to side (like in the Oculus VR movie app) starts to cause me feelings of nausea. That doesn't happen if I physically move my head from side to side, unfortunately you can't scroll through the menus that way. I think a flip style menu navigation would work far better for me than the scrolling style menus in VR. The page flip style menus didn't induce feelings of nausea since it wasn't movement independent of my physical movement.

    I think this means a great many VR games would be completely unplayable for me unless I wanted to feel sick for 6-10 hours after a 10-15 minute play session. Motion sickness sucks donkey balls. If you've never had to suffer it, feel blessed. It doesn't go away immediately after you stop the thing that induced it in the first place. It sticks around and lingers for hours on end, like a bad hangover.

    I could see the right edge of the right lens in the left lens and I could see the left edge of the left lens in the right lens. That manifested as kind of a slivered black half circle like a new moon (except black). That was annoying.

    Pretty much all of those things are going to exist with all 3 current VR devices.

    Oh and light bleed from the nose area was significantly while I was adjusting everything but unnoticeable once I start using it. I was worried that it would affect my experience, but to my surprise it didn't.

    The good things.

    Sense of scale was far more impressive than I'd imagined it would be. This included such things as watching a movie in a virtual cinema. That was far and away one of the most impressive things I liked about VR. It really felt like I was watching a movie on a Theater's big screen. Well, if the resolution weren't so low. :(

    The sense of presence from having your view shift and move correctly in relation to how your head was moving was just as good as I had imagined it would be. That's one of the greatest strengths of VR (and AR).

    Once the headset was properly adjusted to my head, it was amazingly easy to take on and off. The sound quality also took me by surprise even though numerous reviews had mentioned how good the sound quality was.

    My conclusion from just a single experience.

    First I didn't try any games. After feeling a bit nauseas just from trying out the Oculus VR movie application, I didn't want to risk making it worse. I still feel slightly nauseas and it's been ~2 hours since I tried it.

    Secondly, I'm not sure even a 4k screen will be enough. The pixels (to me) were absolutely massive. But I guess it wasn't so much the large pixels that detracted from the experience but the gaps between pixels. I think if there'd be no gaps between pixels I wouldn't have noticed the low resolution as much. Well, also if there wasn't so much blur.

    Third, I came away really wanting a VR device not to play games, but to watch movies. That was the last thing I expected to really hook me, but it really does make for a fantastic movie watching experience. Just needs more resolution. If the price comes down, the resolution goes up, and the edges of one lens stop appearing in the FOV of the other lens I'm definitely planning on picking up a headset just for movie watching. I know you can do it with phones, but it appears that I could really benefit from physical IPD adjustments. The physical adjustments on the Oculus Rift was barely enough. So phone based VR is definitely out for me.

    Once I feel like risking full on vomit nausea I plan to go back and try out some games. I have a feeling Pinball will be OK. But I have a feeling something like Lucky's Tale might make me vomit since the visuals will be moving independent of my head. But I'm going to give it a try at some point just to see. Motion sickness sucks.

    Regards,
    SB
     
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  4. hughJ

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    My understanding is the fresnel lens choice is to allow for a wider area of focus of the display (and probably overall more flexibility in their design options while keeping a manageable thickness). With the DK1/DK2/GearVR there's a noticeable lack of focus the more your eye strays from the center of the display. So this problem is likely only going to get worse as the resolution and FOV go up - greater resolution increases the need for focus and wider FOV makes it harder to fully focus.

    Your motion sickness from the sliding menus is interesting. Not really a VR problem so much as it is a wide FOV + large moving objects problem. Might just be one of those oddball things that happens to be a trigger for you - I wouldn't be fearful of trying other things just because of that.

    Not really sure what you're describing here. Are you talking about something that's a byproduct of your eyes not being properly centered with their respective lenses? What is your IPD? If you don't know it, you should measure it (or get it measured by someone.)
     
  5. Silent_Buddha

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    That makes more sense. I did notice that you had to have your eyes in just the right position or things got really blurry.

    Yeah, I plan to test this out sometime. My friend is a huge germ-aphobe, however. Not only did I have to wash my face at his place before I could use it, he made me wash my hair! :D When I feel like going through the pre-use ritual that he has people do that want to try out his headset, I'll be heading over again.[

    It'd be interesting to get it tested. Imagine you were always aware of the blackness surrounding the lens/display causing a edge between the blackness and the rendered image. I'll see the left edge of the left lens in the right eye's view and vice versa. Depending on if I'm focusing on a near object or far object will also make that edge move closer or farther from the center of what my eye is seeing. All of that is expected behavior if neither of your eyes is dominant as each eye has a different view portal into the world. Your brain will composite the image based on the focal plane your eyes are focused on cause everything else to shift away from the center of the composited image.

    I imagine some people may be more or less sensitive to this depending on how sensitive their peripheral vision is. My peripheral vision is key and always active for me, hence why my eyes are easily drawn to things moving in my peripheral vision and why I can play SCHMUPs while only focusing on one part of the screen. That may explain why I probably notice it more than others since my reliance on peripheral vision makes the lack of that vision especially noteworthy to my brain which in turn makes me hyper aware of where vision ends for each eye precluding my brain from compositing the two images and ignoring the absence of data for the composited image at the left and right edges.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  6. hughJ

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    I must admit that I'm still having trouble understanding. The part where you see the left edge of the left lens in the right eye's view doesn't seem possible to me. Even if I look left/right as far as my eyeballs will turn inward, I can only barely make out light coming from the other eye's lens, so I have no idea how you could see anything like you describe on the far side of the opposite eye's lens. I'm wondering if you're simply talking about the low inner-FOV/stereo overlap that produces a very noticeable edge/split where the merged stereo image ceases. You might also be noticing the FOV change that occurs depending on eye position (looking forward allows you to see more of the display in your peripheral vision due to your pupil having a better angle. The other not-often-talked-about oddity with VR is what's been called, "pupil swim", where the movement of the eye relative to the lens+display assembly produces noticeable geometric distortion across the center and periphery of the image.

    edit:
    The latest game I've been toying with has been Raw Data on the Vive. The biggest new discovery with this game for me is the control mechanics for grabbing and holding. Very few games utilize the side "grip" buttons at all and instead use the trigger (and even then it's often a toggle hold/let-go behavior). In Raw Data you can actually set the grip buttons so you have to keep them depressed to keep hold of your gun/sword or keep your fist clenched. This is something that I assumed wouldn't feel natural or would at the very least be a prohibitive pain in the ass from accidentally letting go of your gun, but surprisingly this is not the case. It works well, it feels very natural, and it also allows for interactions that are second nature, which is really worth something in this game due to the combat system being an unbroken chain of melee and ranged combat. Very ambitious, surprised that it works as well as it does.

    Also tried the new Nvidia VR Funhouse demo suite and ILMxLab Star Wars experience. Biggest takeaway from these is the visual and haptic feedback in Funhouse - some of the best handling of collisions with solid objects that I've seen yet (which is a huge problem with VR, as if you hit a hammer against a table your hand doesn't actually stop moving.) Hopefully Nvidia will feel compelled to do more of these. With the VR software market being so thin right now, these sorts of tech demos are really not too far off from the size/scope of the average gamesyou actually have to pay money for, and I can't see any other way that Nvidia is going to properly showcase their newest flagship cards in VR unless they do it themselves.
     
    #1286 hughJ, Jul 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  7. Silent_Buddha

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    That's a much better to way to explain it than how I've been trying to explain it. Except It's not just the split, the blackness (absence of image) is also overlapped. So I see very hard and high contrast edges superimposed at the right and left sides with the "blackness" obscuring some of the view.

    Also I like the idea of that grip feature. Sounds like a natural fit for intuitive controls.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  8. scooby_dooby

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    You really have to try room scale. There's much less motion sickness (none at all in the best games), and the sense of immersion is so much higher when have hands, and can stand, duck, spin and sidestep.

    They are really 2 different mediums. In one, you're playing a traditional game, from a different vantage point (cool, but still a bit gimmicky imo). In the other, you get an entirely new form of interaction something you've never done or experienced before. Great examples of this are Space Pirate Trainer, Audioshield, HoloPoint and (shameless plug!) our game HoloBall. In our case... it's kinda like something you've done before (raquetball) but vastly cooler and more epic than any real world court. Average heart-rate while playing our game is like 160bpm, and a lot of that is just adrenaline dumps from the brain, from being in this insane world. It's pretty fun to watch people play and get so sweaty/excited, even though they're not really doing that much movement.
     
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  9. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Is your game Vive exclusive or will it support Rift once Oculus Touch is released?
     
  10. scooby_dooby

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    We'll be there Day 1 for the Touch launch. We were very pleasantly surprised at the tracking quality of the Touch, was a bit worried about a camera-based solution, but after testing, it's totally on par with the VIVE.

    One of the cooler discoveries when we got our Touch's, is that SteamVR already supports Oculus Touch. We downloaded SteamVR Beta, ran a quick automatic room setup (place rift headset on floor, click button) and plugged in HoloBall, and within 5 minutes we were playing the release build of HoloBall from Steam, on Touch, with no changes to the code at all. We even got working chaperone bounds. Haptics didn't work, but other than that, it's 98% there out of the box.

    Thats great news for Touch owners, as they will basically get the full VIVE Steam library on Day 1.

    Gotta love Valve :)
     
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  11. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    Awesome news!
     
  12. Silent_Buddha

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    I'm unlikely to ever do room scale. I'm getting old and the risk of permanent injury is too high. Last winter one of my contemporaries slipped on a patch of ice and had to get her hip replaced. I could probably rig something to the ceiling that holds the wires where there won't be a risk of tripping on them, but even then it'd be too risky. I've watched some videos already where people got too into the games and smacked into either their furniture, their ceiling lamps, their ceiling, their walls, their floor, etc. while using their Vive.

    It's one reason I'm far more interested in AR than I am in VR. The experience doesn't come at the expense of your presence in the real world. Unfortunately, I may not live long enough to see AR become an affordable consumer device. I can see the appeal of VR for younger people where there is less risk of injury and any injury will be less severe.

    The closest I'd ever do to room scale would be sitting in a swivel chair and using hand tracking controllers.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  13. scooby_dooby

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    Ya it's a good point, but I've demoed it for our 80+ yr old grampa and he loved it. It was just a mountain top scene, and he threw a stick for a dog to fetch. very chill, very relaxed, but he was in awe.

    Not all the experience are high intensity / rapid movement, in fact I'd say at least 50% of them are pretty relaxing and mellow. Fantastic Contraption, The Blue, The Lab, Waltz of the Wizard, Van Goh's Night Cafe, Flight Control, all example of excellent room-scale games requiring little to no fast movement. Even AudioShield, while fairly active, does not ask you to move, so it can be played very safely.

    In terms of tripping on the chord, its not something I've ever seen, you develop a 6th sense very quickly, and it tend to just hang down your back. I really think you'd be fine... it's not as if you lose any balance in VR, you feel as sure footed as ever.
     
  14. hughJ

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    The tether is surprisingly a non-issue from my experience of demoing to people. Every person I've put in the Vive for the first time has seemingly been able to navigate themselves around the cable bundle without it ever being an issue. I have come away with bruises though from VR, albeit those being self-induced by getting caught up in the gameplay (quickly diving and dropping to a knee in response to a close proximity attacker in Raw Data being a recent example.) Although, the fact that a video game was able to compel me to drop my knee onto a concrete floor and have me engaged enough to completely ignore the pain is pretty cool in itself.

    edit:
    Just to add about the tether tripping - I would say though that this risk is very dependent on your ability to keep track of your orientation. Most room scale content maintains an orientation lock on your room (where the teleportation mechanics translate you but don't rotate you, so your compass direction in game remains the same relative to your room from beginning to end.) This allows you to subconsciously keep track of the front/back of your room and know where the bulk of the tether slack is laying.

    That being said, Raw Data managed to get me turned around a bit due to the virtual rooms being very symmetrical and the menu UI and enemy interactions aren't clearly biased towards a particular direction - I think this might be the only room scale VR content where I've had to peek out of the headset after 20 minutes to double check which way I was facing (I had no idea where the cable slack was relative to my feet).

    edit2:
    Another trick I've found that works well is if you have a fan, noisy enough computer, or some other inoffensive sound source in your room, then you can use that to establish and maintain your sense of direction without it being disruptive to your experience. The reason why I mention a fan is because I've found that heavy airflow is needed to keep cool/dry during the more active gameplay. Physically active room scale VR is like doing a light aerobics class with ski goggles and headphones on - my head gets pretty warm. I've started wearing my IEMs for room scale purely out of interest for keeping cool. (I probably couldn't play Holoball any other way :p)
     
    #1294 hughJ, Jul 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
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  15. Silent_Buddha

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    OK, just tried a game (Lucky's Tale) over at my friend's place and my take on it.

    --First the bad.

    Camera movement unrelated to my physical body in this game made me physically uncomfortable. Especially if I moved in one direction causing the camera to pan in that direction and then reversed direction causing the camera to start panning in the reverse direction. It wasn't enough to cause more than slightly nauseas feeling, but it was incredibly physically uncomfortable. It was enough that I didn't stay in it long. However, once I was out of the game I took the headset off. At this point nausea just slammed into me pretty hard. And walking around (in real life) just made it worse.

    In many ways, I think that was far worse than the immediate nausea that I felt with scrolling menus.

    Also, looking around the game just highlighted just how inadequate the resolution is for the current VR implementations.

    --Now the good.

    Again, the sense of presence is fantastic. I played around in the menu screen for a bit. It gave the feeling like looking at a Diorama in real life. Except it was all virtual which was pretty darn cool. Being able to move my head and actually look around and behind things was great.

    In the game itself, the sense of scale is believable due to the sense of presence. And it was neat to look around.

    --What I came away from this thinking

    Yeah if I ever get a VR device I won't be playing any games with any movement that isn't directly correlated to my head movement (I have yet to try one, but I'm hoping it won't induce nausea). That's just asking for a world of pain that I'm not interested in. I feel sorry for the many of the poor suckers that are going to get a PSVR and then attempt to play Resident Evil in VR.

    Resolution needs to increase by leaps and bounds. Artifacts due to the low resolution were incredibly annoying. I'd always be one part impressed by the VR environment and 2 parts annoyed at the artifacts.

    Also, VR movies/clips are nothing more than glorified 3D movies/clips except that they take up more of your FOV. It does improve things in that you can rotate your head to change what you are looking at (looking around a room) but that's mostly just due to the increased FOV. Just like a 3D movie, however, once you have any lateral movement of your head (moving your head side to side for example) the illusion completely breaks.

    3D rendered VR "movies/clips" change things slightly. But the novelty of having to look around to find things (I tried the short "Invasion") was more annoying, IMO, than an actual improvement on a movie viewing experience.

    Which leads me to my one takeaway from all of this. Interactive movies -AKA- Adventure games are likely to be quite compelling for a variety of reasons.
    1. You're generally limited to "locations" like a room, or a street corner, or an alley, etc. Hence there's little need for really expansive movement like a flight sim or most typical action games. Hence there is never a need to have the camera move independently of your actual physical head.
    2. The ability to interact with objects intuitively and more importantly to easy look into (like a drawer) something or behind something fits the Adventure game genre really well. Of course, there's also a danger here. If everything can't be interacted with, the illusion breaks.
    3. Adventure games are inherently slow paced, allowing the user to take as much time as they want to appreciate any effort the development artists put into crafting the game space. Of course, the danger here is that if enough care isn't put into it the experience may come across as unsatisfactory.
    So, for me personally. I'm still at the point where VR is still mainly of interest for movie watching. I again tried out movie watching to make sure my first impressions from before were still valid, in case it was purely novelty. And again I came away greatly impressed with how much VR made it feel like an actual Cinema experience on a gigantic screen. Of course, that only happens if there's a rendered movie watching space (like a cinema, drive in, home theater) within which you are placed. That's key in giving the movie being watched its sense of scale. Absent that (I got to try out the Whirligig movie watching software which had a mode where you only saw the movie/video and nothing else) most sense of scale is lost and the experience isn't as satisfying.

    Oddly enough, my last experience actually made me more excited for AR than VR. Most especially the main menu for Lucky's Tale. That feeling of looking at a diorama made me wonder what it would be like to play something akin to a table top war game like Warhammer 40k. Only it's rendered on top of my kitchen table. And I have my gaming group buddies around also. And we can all see the same thing. We can all see each other. We can easily communicate with each other both verbally but with body language as well. And we can take a break and barbeque some steaks. And then get right back to the game. Ah, this sounds like Heaven.

    Sure it would just replicate what you can do already in real life. But in real life, setting up everything for a table top Warhammer 40k match is both expensive and extremely time consuming if you want to create actual landscapes and battlegrounds (like a Diorama). Now imagine if you want to play multiple different war games and/or multiple different physical battlefields to play on.

    So, weirdly enough, trying out Lucky's Tale in VR made me really REALLY REALLY want AR to be a thing so badly that I have trouble thinking of anything else.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #1295 Silent_Buddha, Jul 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  16. idsn6

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    I adjusted the thread title to better reflect the discussion and landscape.
     
  17. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    You may find that the more you play, the less the nausea effects you. I've had moments of nausea in Luckeys take but after a while it goes away entirely. Even Eve Valkyrie which is much worse than Luckeys Tale IMO is something you can get used too - it will take longer though!

    On the resolution front, you're right that resolution is way too low, however do you know what setting he was running LT on? As it can be quite 'artifacty' at the lowest setting, but at the highest, which clearly increases the internal resolution, the graphics are pretty solid, and it's just the SDE that causes a problem IMO.
     
  18. Ethatron

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    This could be solved by "reverse AR" or AVR (augmented virtual reality, LOL). The room-rectangle or cube could overlay VR. Much like a boxer stage.
     
  19. Ike Turner

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    Well, that's what the built-in camera on the Vive is used for when enabled in Chaperone mode. But frankly it's really get's you out of the experience so it not that useable.
     
  20. scooby_dooby

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    Sounds like TableTop VR is right down your alley :)
     
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