Rift, Vive, and Virtual Reality

but a game for PSVR and rift that cant work on vive? i cannot imagine any. Sure, the way the hand-controller handled (vive and psvr is like a baton that you "grab". while Rift is like hanging on your hands) may need a bit of change on the game itself, but should be nothing major.

The Vive only has a single button that I would consider a natural fit for finger/grabbing actions and that's the trigger. The side buttons, wheel, and function buttons feel more tool/utility like where you need to consciously think about where the button is located and what action or UI element is bound to them. The best thing you can do with the Vive controllers is not content that overlays abstracted virtual hands in place of where your wand is, but rather the content that represents a likeness of the wand itself and makes use of some sort of virtual tool system as a game mechanic. Not all forms of interaction are going to marry well with having an 8" long rod with a doughnut on the end being gripped by your hand. It's a natural fit for large handheld implements, but nothing that involves using your fingers. These are subtle differences, but subtle details are where the magic is going to happen in content design.

A PSVR game that wouldn't work (well) with the Rift/Vive - any sort of asymmetric multiplayer game that involves shuffling the HMD and controllers between a group of people. If I were to make a bet I would say that this generation of PC VR will be almost exclusively defined by one-man VR experiences, either through single player, networked multiplayer, or by player + passive spectators. Basically any PSVR promo video you see with people sitting on a couch and playing together probably won't exist on PC VR.
 
Basically any PSVR promo video you see with people sitting on a couch and playing together probably won't exist on PC VR.
PCVR already have a few right? i think it was "keep exploding you talk too much". PCVR also have social screen like PSVR and nobody preventing developer to make asymmetrical gameplay between them right? At the worst case, developer can brute force it by making it run as two seperate game that talk with each other using internal multiplayer.
 
PlayStation VR has the DS4 controller that is visibly tracked in space ... They all have something, and they will all get games that make use of exclusive abilities for sure. But most of them will be too small initially and for quite some time to have large projects developed for them exclusively. When that does happen, then sure it is fine that a platform owner pays for them and considers it an investiment. But I am not a big fan of a VR 'platform' owner making a title exclusive that doesn't need to be other than to make sure 'the other guys don't have it'. If it were up to me, I'd probably outlaw that practice. ;)
 
All signs right now point to there being no perfect one-size-fits-all input device. Pure optical tracking means you lose the haptic feedback which is important for efficient UI interaction (ambiguity of input registration being the efficiency killer.)

Some sort of haptic glove could maybe do both, but then you've got the practical engineering issue of making a glove controller that can accommodate a wide variety of hand sizes, the issue of hygiene, complexity/cost/durability, etc. And even with a hypothetical haptic glove, a physical controller would still end up being preferable for any game that uses tools/implements/guns/etc.

Tactical Haptics have what looks to be an impressive actuated grip system for physical controllers which can convey a sensation of torque and resistance by causing the controller to twist and move against your hand. I'd imagine this would be an big engineering challenge though to make it durable and not a battery killer. www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIQ0Li-2VLs www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBB_OFMJ-Go&t=1m46s

A multi camera Kinect system would probably allow for real time scanning and mapping of the texture of your body and skeletal position, but it probably wouldn't be good enough for tracking your fingers with high reliability from across the room. I still think the Kinect v1 capturing looks super bad-ass in an old school Lawnmower Man sorta way. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghgbycqb92c
 
This better than motion controllers?

Very nice, but without tactile feedback it's another pros + cons input method. Not feeling the things you see yourself touching would be conflicting. You'd need a game story where you've lost all sense of touch!
 
Got my Rift yesterday so thought I'd post a few impressions....

I'm running it on a GTX670 + i5 2500k and a single USB3 port (they recommend 2). Surprisingly, it seems to work just fine for the most part. Performance is ultra smooth and responsive and I've only found one app so far (a video based one strangely) that refused to work at all. Of the three actual games I've played: Lucky's Tale, Eve and a racer where you travel through the human body, performance has felt great and the graphics are fine with the exception of Eve which runs on minimum everything and looks pretty rough as a result - at least in resolution/aliasing terms. The core graphics are still impressive given you're actually inside them.

That leads me onto my next point - resolution.... yeah this is a lot worse than I was expecting. Not just in high end games like Eve, but everything, including the Oculus home space. Maybe it's auto lowering res because of my GPU but I doubt that applies to everything. I think the resolution just isn't there yet and needs to be increased by at least a factor of 4. Everything just feels fuzzy and lacking in clarity. SDE is also still pretty evident although once immersed you don;t tend to notice it unless you look for it.

The fit isn't quite as comfortable as I was hoping either. It's okay, but it's not like I don't know I'm wearing the headset. It is however, remarkably light.

Another area that needs improvement is FoV. Having your peripheral vision completely blocked by the limits of the FoV doesn't take you out of the world, but it does leave you feeling like you're looking at it through a restrictive face mask.

All those complaints aside, I still think it's absolutely amazing. VR clearly has such hige potential for the future but I can't help feeling that it won't hit the big time until at least the resolution is vastly increased, and potentially the FoV is also improved by quite a lot. I also can see how much both room scale and hand controllers would make a significant difference to the feeling of presence. Can't wait to get my hands on a pair of those Touch controllers.

Oh yeah, and VR porn - needs more res, but fucking cool!
 
Oh yeah, and VR porn - needs more res, but fucking cool!

Apparently if E3 is anything to go by, Porn is going to be what drives VR. Not PSVR, not games, not anything else. Apparently the lines to see interactive porn demos in VR at E3 was at least an order of magnitude longer than any line for any other VR (or even the vast majority of games) at E3. I'm not sure if they were just joking or what. But multiple people commented that it was far longer than just about any other booth at E3.

And that is despite many people feeling embarrassed to stand in a public line for porn demo's that many people said they wanted to try it out but were too embarrassed to get in line. And despite it being tucked away in a corner of E3 away from almost all other booth's, as if the E3 organizers were trying to hide it. They also said it was amusing, creepy, and oddly engaging to watch people groping at mid-air (presumably feeling up some VR character) with VR controllers.

Regards,
SB
 
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If porn is what drives VR then there's no need for VR to be more than low-FOV cardboard as that's all you need to get good video playback. I think the narrative that porn has a significant impact in driving, adopting and steering any technology of the past (VHS, internet, etc) is a cute idea, but there's never been any real data to support that it does anything more than get carried along for the ride along with all other media.

In terms of high quality rendered 3D interactive porn I think there's even less reason to think that it will have any real impact. The cost of production is simply too high, too complicated, requiring too much expertise, and the market too small. Porn is pervasive because it's dirt cheap to produce, cheaper than dirt to buy, and there's a constant demand for it. Porn video games have never had any real staying power as a market - they're something that emerges as the industry tries to capitalize on the buzz of a new tech medium and then eventually it goes away.
 
If porn is what drives VR then there's no need for VR to be more than low-FOV cardboard as that's all you need to get good video playback. I think the narrative that porn has a significant impact in driving, adopting and steering any technology of the past (VHS, internet, etc) is a cute idea, but there's never been any real data to support that it does anything more than get carried along for the ride along with all other media.

In terms of high quality rendered 3D interactive porn I think there's even less reason to think that it will have any real impact. The cost of production is simply too high, too complicated, requiring too much expertise, and the market too small. Porn is pervasive because it's dirt cheap to produce, cheaper than dirt to buy, and there's a constant demand for it. Porn video games have never had any real staying power as a market - they're something that emerges as the industry tries to capitalize on the buzz of a new tech medium and then eventually it goes away.

That may be. Although the amount of money spent on producing porn varies greatly around the world. In the US, production values are low. While in Japan, production values are relatively high. And in Europe it runs the gamut from low (like the US) to high (like Japan). With Europe having an intersection between porn and mainstream films.

Regardless of that, if the vast majority of money spent in VR ends up being for porn that will either fund development of more consumer friendly VR devices than exist today or it'll kill the fledgling VR game industry, if as you contend strap on Phone VR is good enough. Or developers will adjust and explore making more games suitable to that audience. I should say non-Japanese developers, as there is at least one Japanese game developer that has focused on interactive 3D porn games for the past 15 years. Obviously not AAA quality with a AAA budget, but certainly more than good enough for VR once they adapt to VR controls. And that is while limiting themselves mostly to the Japanese market (outside of Japan you basically have to import them) which can be difficult depending on import laws and morality laws of various countries.

Regards,
SB
 
By high production values I'm talking about what it would take for artists to photoscan, rig, generate shaders, animate and produce real time rendered photo-real interactive porn. Because that's what we'd be talking about for proper VR content. Maybe there'll be a market for that sort of thing once we get to the point of having something analogous to the film "Her", where an AI is able to function well enough to be a general social companion rather than something you jerk off to for 10 minutes and turn off. But if we're talking head-tracked cubemap/panoramic video like we've got now, then you don't need anything more than high resolution cardboard.
 
By high production values I'm talking about what it would take for artists to photoscan, rig, generate shaders, animate and produce real time rendered photo-real interactive porn. Because that's what we'd be talking about for proper VR content. Maybe there'll be a market for that sort of thing once we get to the point of having something analogous to the film "Her", where an AI is able to function well enough to be a general social companion rather than something you jerk off to for 10 minutes and turn off. But if we're talking head-tracked cubemap/panoramic video like we've got now, then you don't need anything more than high resolution cardboard.

I'm not sure that's absolutely necessary, just like it isn't absolutely necessary for VR games. Just look at the proliferation of nude mod for various games ranging from something semi-realistic (fallout, oblivion, tomb raider, etc.) to somewhat cartoony (street fighter, Naruto, leisure suit larry, etc.). Combined with human imagination, the ability to manipulate things, even in a rough way is often enough to serve porn related purposes.

Just look at a lot of PlayStation games from Japan which are on the borderline of being porn-like. You have direct manipulation of breasts (grabbing, mashing, pulling, rubbing) and other acts that are obviously sexually related (forcible stripping of clothing, whipping of tied up women, etc.), but get onto the platform because there's at least a shred of clothing covering the nipples and crotch and there aren't any outright sexual acts (Oral/Penetration). Some of those games are also making their way onto Steam.

If there's interest (which there obviously is), how much would it take for those developers to decide that taking it another step further could be even more profitable? Especially when VR by its very nature (the outside world is completely occluded) makes it a very personal experience in most cases versus the relative awkwardness of playing those games on a TV/Monitor/handheld console (a lot of those above mentioned games originate on PS Vita). And considering they are on Steam that already eases their transition to a VR porn-like or porn-lite gaming experience (minus oral/penetration). There's already porn-focused VN games on Steam. So the precedent is already there to have a porn game on a platform that supports VR.

And once Fallout VR is released, how long will it take before you have even more nude mods combined with interactive sex mods? Considering many developers got their start modding games, it's not that far of a step from there to potentially making a porn game if the mods are really popular.

Regards,
SB
 
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Just look at the proliferation of nude mod for various games ranging from something semi-realistic (fallout, oblivion, tomb raider, etc.) to somewhat cartoony (street fighter, Naruto, leisure suit larry, etc.).

Exactly, and how many of those are commercial products that sell to hundreds of millions of people and have a self-sustaining ecosystem of producers and consumers? Bubble Bath Babes, Leisure Suit Larry, Virtual Valerie, Nude Raider mods, Elder Scrolls, etc are curiosities, oddities. The few that are commercial products don't last long enough to have more than a sequel or two before they die, and most of them are free mods that some thousands of people check out once and then delete. The key players involved in VR investment didn't come into this market to sell cheap content to hundreds of thousands to a few million people in the first few years, they came into this market predicting that this will be somehow/someway the computing platform for hundreds of millions to billions of people in 10-15+ years.

edit: The key players aren't going to let their investment get driven into the ditch because porn + cheap VR viewers = low risk, low ceiling profits for a limited market.
 
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Exactly, and how many of those are commercial products that sell to hundreds of millions of people and have a self-sustaining ecosystem of producers and consumers? Bubble Bath Babes, Leisure Suit Larry, Virtual Valerie, Nude Raider mods, Elder Scrolls, etc are curiosities, oddities. The few that are commercial products don't last long enough to have more than a sequel or two before they die, and most of them are free mods that some thousands of people check out once and then delete. The key players involved in VR investment didn't come into this market to sell cheap content to hundreds of thousands to a few million people in the first few years, they came into this market predicting that this will be somehow/someway the computing platform for hundreds of millions to billions of people in 10-15+ years.

edit: The key players aren't going to let their investment get driven into the ditch because porn + cheap VR viewers = low risk, low ceiling profits for a limited market.

But I'm not talking necessarily about key Western developers. I'm talking about the Japanese development community where all of that already exists to some extent as non-VR commercial products. But in pure porn cases they mostly stay in Japan with a reluctance by developers to sell their games outside of Japan. But in Porn-lite category (no hard sex, and limited nudity), those already exist on the PlayStation platform and on Steam in non-VR capacity.

And while there is gameplay in those games, they certainly don't sell based on the gameplay for the most part. It's the pseudo-sexual interactions with the Anime influenced characters that sells those games on PlayStation and Steam.

I'd expect it to be driven by Japanese, French or German developers. All of which have made porn games. And especially in Japan, interactive 3D porn games.

And why would it succeed more in the future than in the past.

Well, listening to various VR users. VR makes things that were previously completely uninteresting as a game into compelling experiences. One example that TotalBiscuit brought up is a VR game/demo on Steam where you have a light saber and swing it around. As a regular game, most people in their right mind wouldn't get it. It's short, it's janky, it serves no purpose. But in VR, suddenly it's novel and compelling. Kind of like when the Wii originally came out, boring games suddenly became interesting because of the way you could interact with the game.

Most porn games don't have immediate (lots of reading required) or natural feeling manipulation (using a mouse to manipulate a breast isn't terribly intuitive for various motions). VR changes much of that. Similar to a swinging a light saber with a mouse or console controller being mostly "meh" but doing it with VR controls in VR is suddenly amazing, the same can happen with VR for interaction with a nude model. Even if that nude model isn't hyper realistic.

Think about the success of the DOA franchise. The first one was a solid but otherwise unremarkable fighting game (both graphically and in gameplay). But it succeeded due to the bouncing breasts. Using sex to spice up an otherwise unremarkable game. The same trend continues with the DOA franchise. It's only successful because it uses sex to sell it.

It's only natural that with VR that will be extended to direct manipulation of models or interaction with models rather than just generic bounces or interaction through a controller that isn't a plausible extension of the user's body.

It'll still have larger barriers than regular games (morality laws and regulations). But the potential is certainly there and very real. And I expect that it will be taken advantage of, and that it has the potential to sell better than most other VR experiences.

Regards,
SB
 
All of that may or may not happen, my points were this:

a) VR video porn isn't enough to steer the market because the large companies are the engine that's driving the VR "industry", not consumer dollars and short term economic forces, and they're investing in this family of technologies because it represents the future and final platform for computing.

b) Interactive realtime porn is cost prohibitive for production for the same reason and same degree that non-porn is. If there's not enough money to produce a Tomb Raider VR then you're not going to have a Nude Raider VR mod. So the first Tomb Raider VR probably isn't going to be funded by consumer dollars, but rather platform holder dollars. There will no doubt be porn and sexualized content, but you're still looking at something that's narrow in commercial appeal and cultural uptake relative to what these corporations are wanting out of this venture, so it's not going to have a meaningful impact on business decisions that define or shape the industry or progress of technology. Porn will go along for the ride just as it did print, film, telephone, VHS, internet, and interactive content.
 
On the discussion of input:

https://developer.oculus.com/docume...concepts/unity-ovrinput/#unity-ovrinput-usage

So the capacitive surfaces on Touch function not just in a binary on/off way, but also can produce some amount of proximity sensing, (to detect the travel of your fingers.) An interesting prospect that we may be looking at a controller that's a useful half-way point between the functionality of a wand and a glove.
 
All of that may or may not happen, my points were this:

a) VR video porn isn't enough to steer the market because the large companies are the engine that's driving the VR "industry", not consumer dollars and short term economic forces, and they're investing in this family of technologies because it represents the future and final platform for computing.

b) Interactive realtime porn is cost prohibitive for production for the same reason and same degree that non-porn is. If there's not enough money to produce a Tomb Raider VR then you're not going to have a Nude Raider VR mod. So the first Tomb Raider VR probably isn't going to be funded by consumer dollars, but rather platform holder dollars. There will no doubt be porn and sexualized content, but you're still looking at something that's narrow in commercial appeal and cultural uptake relative to what these corporations are wanting out of this venture, so it's not going to have a meaningful impact on business decisions that define or shape the industry or progress of technology. Porn will go along for the ride just as it did print, film, telephone, VHS, internet, and interactive content.

a) This is where our opinions obviously diverge. I don't view VR as the future and final platform for computing. If anything I think AR has more of a place there, but even then, it's only a part of it, not the final form. And large platform holders are currently defining the smaller VR niche, but phone manufacturers are currently defining the large VR marketplace. While the smaller VR niche is vastly more capable, it remains to be seen whether that will gain significant traction over a long period of time.

b) Interactive realtime porn has been made for well over a decade now. Cost of production or lack of interest isn't the main reason it is mostly absent from many countries. There are significant moral barriers (laws and general social upbringing) in many countries. Similar to how violence in movies don't receive nearly as much attention in the US as violence in video games. Only on a much larger scale. Yes, as I mentioned, they're unlikely to get AAA budgets. But they are made. Heck, there are even pornographic MMOs, and those are generally significantly more costly to produce and operate than your traditional single player game.

Regards,
SB
 
a) In this context I would use AR/VR interchangeably. Facebook/Oculus are doing R&D in AR as well. The tech and content that serves one will also serve the other in the long term time frames I was talking about here.

b) Interactive real time porn exists as a tiny subset of interactive real time entertainment. It will also exist in VR as a small subset. The fact that they would exist was never in question, the issue was whether porn would be a driver of VR (either economically or socio-culturally) rather than PSVR, regular gaming or anything else.
 
Maybe there'll be a market for that sort of thing once we get to the point of having something analogous to the film "Her", where an AI is able to function well enough to be a general social companion rather than something you jerk off to for 10 minutes and turn off.

You know what I'd find even better? A hot girl I can jerk off to for 10 minutes and then turn it off.
 
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