Revolution Tech Details Emerge ( Xbox1+ performance, 128 MB RAM )

[OtakingGX]

No, it's supposed to be a bar that you put either above or below the screen, as long as it's centred and parallel to the display it should be fine.

FWIW I highly doubt that it's a sensorbar. It would make everything much easier if it was the bar that did the IR emitting an the Revmote the receiving.

I conjecture that the Revmote has a low res IR-CCD, with an appropriate lens, and the "sensorbar" is really just two IR diodes at the ends of a flat piece of plastic.
The movement sensing will be done by detecting the x,y movement and explosion - implosion of the two diodes for z movement.
Otherwise how would the system be able to support multiple players, with maybe two revmotes each? That would need some serious IR frequency switching.

I think the sensor bar has two functions. First, establish where in space the TV screen is and second, locate the remotes. The remotes will give their orientation in 3D space, but have no way of knowing their position unless there's a reference. Once you have that, you still need to know what plane the TV screen occupies, and a couple corners, in order to know where a line drawn through the remote would intersect the image on the screen.

 

[Ragemare]

I'm indifferent to the pictures, but from what I read of the blog, it doesn't seem like what a game developer would write. The authers seem to talk more about what peoples reactions are to the blog, than about the game they are makeing. I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I wouldn't put much faith in any information you can gain from it.

 

[Squeak]

I think the sensor bar has two functions. First, establish where in space the TV screen is and second, locate the remotes. The remotes will give their orientation in 3D space, but have no way of knowing their position unless there's a reference. Once you have that, you still need to know what plane the TV screen occupies, and a couple corners, in order to know where a line drawn through the remote would intersect the image on the screen.

So we agree (more or less)?

 

[pc999]

I'm indifferent to the pictures, but from what I read of the blog, it doesn't seem like what a game developer would write. The authers seem to talk more about what peoples reactions are to the blog, than about the game they are makeing. I'm really not sure what to make of it, but I wouldn't put much faith in any information you can gain from it.

They are not there to talk about the games, just to get ideas for a game.

The purpose of this blog is to discuss game play ideas, which are provided by you, the consumer.

 

[OtakingGX]

So we agree (more or less)?

Yeah, but on the apparatus that the sensor bar works by, I think we're all still in the dark. People are saying you stick in on the corners or edges of the TV screen. From the way the Nintendo suits described it you just toss it towards the TV and play.

 

[Squeak]

Even though Nintendo denies that the thing is going to need calibration, I think it will.
They just have to find a clever way to hide it in the "first startup" sequence, or the "sensorbar has been moved sequence".
I can't think of any technology that would allow them to not have some kind of calibration, if they want the screen action to be completely analog to the players movement.

Otherwise they could go for a mouselike control for some games, where you detach the movement from detection by pressing a button or tilting the revmote or whatever, when you reach you movement limits. Then have calibration for some games only.

Either way, there is no way that you can have 3d tracking with two 1d sensors only. (sensor bar) And having one kind of detection scheme on the x axis and another in y, would be very hard to get to work well.
Therefore I firmly stick to my idea about the revolution controller seeing the bar and then sending the readings back with bluetooth.

 

[Fox5]

Has it been confirmed that the Revolution's controller can function as a lightgun?

 

[OtakingGX]

Has it been confirmed that the Revolution's controller can function as a lightgun?

The very first demo Nintendo showed had the light gun functionality.

http://revolution.ign.com/articles/670/670518p1.html

Having the controller calibrate itself during startup would not be out of the ordinary. N64 sticks were calibrated as the console turned on and if you were holding one in a direction it would calibrate that as the middle position. I think Nintendo was trying to point out there would be no user calibration. So you won't have to pull up a screen and point at things to get it to work right. Just turn the console on and play.

 

[Squeak]

The very first demo Nintendo showed had the light gun functionality.

http://revolution.ign.com/articles/670/670518p1.html

Having the controller calibrate itself during startup would not be out of the ordinary. N64 sticks were calibrated as the console turned on and if you were holding one in a direction it would calibrate that as the middle position. I think Nintendo was trying to point out there would be no user calibration. So you won't have to pull up a screen and point at things to get it to work right. Just turn the console on and play.

That doesn't make sense, how does the console know how far below or above the screen the reference points has been placed? And the N64 stick comparison doesn't make sense either. The sticks has a spring that auto centres them, the revmote is completely free.

The revmote would have to be able to actually see the screen, like a lightgun, to be able to auto calibrate, which now that I think about it, isn't that far fetched.
Maybe the startup sequence could involve a message, instructing the user to point the revmote at the screen and pressing a button.
When doing so, a sharply defined dot is displayed at the centre of the screen and the game starts.
By seeing the dot the console knows what's middle of the screen in both directions.
That of course, would involve having a lens and a CCD capable of seeing both IR and normal light and more difficult, distinguishing sharply between the two. :-/

 

[Powderkeg]

No, it's supposed to be a bar that you put either above or below the screen, as long as it's centred and parallel to the display it should be fine.

Have you ever heard of the term "tirangulate?"

Do you have any idea how hard it is to triangulate an objects position in a 3D space using only 2 points of reference? Let me put it this way, triangulate is based on the word TRIANGLE, which means 3.

The sensor bar will need a verticle point of reference as well as a horizontal one if you are going to triangulate the controllers position.

 

[Squeak]

Triangulation? I've not even once hinted at that.
I'm talking about the revmote seeing the movement of the two IR diodes, exactly like an optical mouse looks at the movement of the surface it moves on.
If only 2d positioning was wanted, one IR diode would be enough, but the second diode makes z readings possible, in my conjecture that is.

 

[Guden Oden]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to triangulate an objects position in a 3D space using only 2 points of reference?

It doesn't seem all that complicated, seeing as Nintendo is doing it, in a cheap consumer product no less. Anyway, since you hate Nintendo and the Rev anyway, why do you bother posting in this thread to begin with, and on the 38th page no less? Ah duh, yes. You hate Nntendo and the Rev, so you take any chance you can get to poo-poo it.

Let me put it this way, triangulate is based on the word TRIANGLE, which means 3.

Perhaps you know less of triangulation than you imply. Triangulation is easily accomplished with just two readings of a signal source, that's how the allies tracked german subs in WWII for example, as do cellphone base stations when they track your handset... Likewise does it appear trivial to me to triangulate with two sources and one receiver.

 

[Squeak]

Likewise does it appear trivial to me to triangulate with two sources and one receiver.

No, not trivial. The examples you mentioned all try to determine a position on the same plane as the triangle. If that was the case the revmote would only detect movement in the x and z axis.

 

[Guden Oden]

From what we know tho, the revmote (bleh ) isn't relying solely on the sensor bar, but also on a built-in solid-state accelerometer. So combining input from both sources, it is obviously possible to track the thing in all three (major) dimensions, since Nintendo has demonstrated it in public. AND it worked.

 

[weaksauce]

From what we know tho, the revmote (bleh ) isn't relying solely on the sensor bar, but also on a built-in solid-state accelerometer. So combining input from both sources, it is obviously possible to track the thing in all three (major) dimensions, since Nintendo has demonstrated it in public. AND it worked.

There's a video on that?

 

[Branduil]

From what we know tho, the revmote (bleh ) isn't relying solely on the sensor bar, but also on a built-in solid-state accelerometer. So combining input from both sources, it is obviously possible to track the thing in all three (major) dimensions, since Nintendo has demonstrated it in public. AND it worked.

Don't you see, Guden, Nintendo obviously didn't think of that. I mean, obviously they just completely overlooked such a glaring problem, and obviously Powderkeg has tremendous inside knowledge of every component of the Rev controller. Oh, if only P-keggy was in charge of Nintendo, he could save them from themselves.

Anyway, about the lightgun simulation, we know it doesn't actually work like a lightgun, since normal lightgun tech doesn't work with HDTVs. I'd guess it's just an internal tilt sensor, which could probably simulate a light gun well enough.

 

[Fox5]

Don't you see, Guden, Nintendo obviously didn't think of that. I mean, obviously they just completely overlooked such a glaring problem, and obviously Powderkeg has tremendous inside knowledge of every component of the Rev controller. Oh, if only P-keggy was in charge of Nintendo, he could save them from themselves.

Anyway, about the lightgun simulation, we know it doesn't actually work like a lightgun, since normal lightgun tech doesn't work with HDTVs. I'd guess it's just an internal tilt sensor, which could probably simulate a light gun well enough.

Not like lightguns were all that accurate or precise anyhow. (outside of the arcades)

 

[Reznor007]

Not like lightguns were all that accurate or precise anyhow. (outside of the arcades)

Home lightguns are basically the same thing as arcade light guns. They haven't really changed since 1983(first year for a lightgun arcade I know of).

CRT based HDTV's will actually work just fine although they have to be set for a higher scanrate. You can get a USB lightgun for CRT PC monitors, which is mainly used for MAME.

 

[Fox5]

Home lightguns are basically the same thing as arcade light guns. They haven't really changed since 1983(first year for a lightgun arcade I know of).

CRT based HDTV's will actually work just fine although they have to be set for a higher scanrate. You can get a USB lightgun for CRT PC monitors, which is mainly used for MAME.

There's also House of the Dead 2 and some other light gun games for PC. (oh, and dreamcast worked just fine with lightguns on a computer monitor)

And the arcade lightguns always seemed to have some advantages the home ones didn't...

1. Arcade screens don't have to flash like home screens.
2. Arcade lightgun games don't seem to need calibration when turned on; though since an arcade lightgun game will only have 2 or 3 different screen sizes/types at most it could be precalibrated.
3. I've found home lightguns don't have the same precision as arcade lightguns, and can even shoot way off target randomly.
4. The arcade lightguns can tell where you're aiming at all times, not just when you shoot. (since somehow they don't rely on the screen to flash) Actually, from what I remember of the gun calibration mode in house of the dead 2 on dreamcast I think it could tell where you were aiming too, but it was very sporadic and wasn't made use of at all in the actual game. Of course, this could just be down to the quality of the lightgun; anyone know how the Time Crisis series on PS2 fairs? (I think the time crisis guns have an extra cable as well....maybe the old school serial ports of from old consoles just didn't have the bandwidth to properly support a lightgun, while the USB ports on PS2 and the USB derived xbox ports do?)

 

[AlgebraicRing]

from what I remember from talking to a few guys that hacked the duck-hunt gun on the NES, the flash of the television screen was so that white squares could be painted on the screen. The light "gun" was actually a light reader and it read which flashed on square it was aimed at.