Revolution cooling issues revisited.

[PC-Engine]

NOTE: This thread is a continuation of the other locked thread. If you cannot participate in a civilized manner then please DO NOT post in it.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25243

This is to mean, you find yourself in a corner. It is entirely relevent to how heatsink pastes work, hence, it is not "scarecrow".

How it works does not equal to does not work. You have offered zero realworld scenarios where thermal paste cannot makeup for differences in chip heights. We're not talking about using paste that's 3mm thick here. In fact I'm not even sure why it's relevant considering chips can have heatspreaders mounted on them that can also help makeup for large chip thickness differences.

So it comes down to the GPU is the one that gets the primary fit. All others are incidental. Hence, you've described a system, which upon closer examination, only needs to fit a heatsink square to one component. Now you're getting it!

The problem with that statement becomes evident when chip A runs much hotter than chip B but chip A is only half the size in area and thickness of chip B.

You seem to take anything as an "insult" now. It was not. An inkjet is what a little squid does when it has become threatened. It murkies the waters and then splits. That is to describe an analogy to what you did in your response above. You felt cornered, so you burst out with what appears you intended to be something inflammatory about Sony hardware, where Sony had nothing at all to do with the topic. You weren't staying on-topic. You sprayed the inkjets, instead. Simple.

If it's not an insult then what is it? Just look at the reasoning why you used that term ie being cornered and bursting out with inflammatory SONY remark? It's a joke which flows very nicely with your hypothetical 4 x 100Watt chip scenario.

It appears you are expecting some kind of hardware, to justify this big sell on a 4x heatsink mounted in a manufacturer problematic manner. This is all your assertion, not mine.

Of course I'm expecting more powerful hardware, but I'm not expecting 4 x 100 watt chips.

It is once again your misunderstanding that, that is even what I was saying. This is why it is so difficult discussing with you. You consistently fail to understand what the other is saying, and then you generate these arguments based on your misinterpretations. It's not fruitful for anything, ultimately.

Well maybe you can enlighten me as to why you said:

It's not quite the same ballgame as one major heat unit + 3 other minor ones that put out watts in the single digits.

which was preceeded by this:

...Exactly, so imagine 4 of those, and you will be pretty concerned that good contact is made for each unit.

Again please show me where anyone said there will be 4 nontrivial heat output chips in Revolution.

Increasing the size of that graphics card heatsink 4 times does not imply there will be 4 separate chips each dissipating the equivalent watts as that single graphics chip in Revolution. It does imply that it can take on the same cooling setup seen in GCN where it's used to cool a single CPU and a single GPU. There is nothing to indicate that this is not possible.

The point of increasing the size of the heatsink is to allow for more heat dissipation from a more power CPU and GPU combo. That's 1 CPU and 1 GPU not 2 CPUs and 2 GPUs. Since the GPU will be 90nm vs 130 and maybe clocked at 500MHz vs 540MHz, the transistor count could easily be around 250 million and still dissipate the same heat as the 160 million transistor, 540MHz, 130nm version. Depending on whether the GPU will have eDRAM or not, that transistor figure will heavily correspond to the amount of eDRAM available.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Why are you all under the misguided impression that the mockup Nintendo displayed at E3 was the finalized version? Come now gentlemen, even the GC had vents. This board is far too intelligent to offer up reasonable conjecture based upon a prototype's shell casing.

Depending on whether the GPU will have eDRAM or not, that transistor figure will heavily correspond to the amount of eDRAM available.

Hollywood definitely will.

 

[V3]

Which one dissipates more heat ? The first production of Dreamcast or Gamecube ?

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Which one dissipates more heat ? The first production of Dreamcast or Gamecube ?

The Gekko ran exceptionally cool, dissipating around 5W at its 485MHz operating frequency. I'm googling those DC dissipation numbers.

 

[PC-Engine]

Why are you all under the misguided impression that the mockup Nintendo displayed at E3 was the finalized version? Come now gentlemen, even the GC had vents. This board is far too intelligent to offer up reasonable conjecture based upon a prototype's shell casing.

I was thinking the same thing. Not only that but none of the pictures showed the left side of the case when standing vertical which may very well be where the inlet vents will be located. The DC had inlet vents on the underside of the case and the outlet was on the side. The Revolution can also have inlets on the underside when horizontal.

Which one dissipates more heat ? The first production of Dreamcast or Gamecube ?

Serious question, why do you ask?

 

[-tkf-]

EDIT

 

[jvd]

There are to many uknown factors .

What is the gpu like ? Is it in two parts like the xenos , one edram and the other logic ? What process is it on ? Will 65nm be ready for a rev launch ?

What type of cpu is it ? If its a tri core at 3ghz or less and is produced on 65nm it will run much cooler than a xenon . Is it clocked even lower ? Is it a dual core 3.5 ghz ?

So many questions .

 

[Farid]

There are to many uknown factors .

That what assumptions and "guesstimations" are made for.

What is the gpu like ? Is it in two parts like the xenos , one edram and the other logic ? What process is it on ? Will 65nm be ready for a rev launch ?

65nm node being ready from who? NEC, I'd say no way, TSMC, very unlikely, IBM, unlikely, and would they produce the GPU?

What type of cpu is it ? If its a tri core at 3ghz or less and is produced on 65nm it will run much cooler than a xenon . Is it clocked even lower ? Is it a dual core 3.5 ghz ?

Like I said in an another thread, Iwata clearly stated that the other machines (X360/PS3) were too complex from a programing standpoint.
If Nintendo's machine do also boast a Tri-core CPU, what would be the point of that statement?

An OOoE Tri-core, one could guess?
No way, it would more than twice bigger than the XeCPU, which doesn't exactly fit with the "cheaper, smaller, smarter" approach.

 

[PC-Engine]

Keep in mind that whatever CPU they decide to use it has to balance with the GPU. If they use a R520 GPU then the CPU must also be pretty powerful. A Gekko at 1.5GHz isn't gonna cut it. It'll likely be a dual core 970FX (970MP) running at 1.6GHz. IBM is about to release the chip later this year. It only consumes 16 watts at 1.6GHz (single core version).

 

[Farid]

Keep in mind that whatever CPU they decide to use it has to balance with the GPU. If they use a R520 GPU then the CPU must also be pretty powerful. A Gekko at 1.5GHz isn't gonna cut it.

I suspect that a, potential, 1.5GHz Gekko would consume more than a 970FX at the same frequency.

A 1.4-1.8 GHz 970FX would also be my guess for the Revolution CPU.

That would be a Mac Mini killer too, no doubt.

 

[Teasy]

Like I said in an another thread, Iwata clearly stated that the other machines (X360/PS3) were too complex from a programing standpoint.
If Nintendo's machine do also boast a Tri-core CPU, what would be the point of that statement?

No idea if Revolutions CPU is tri core but its almost definitely multi core.

 

[Powderkeg]

Since the other thread was closed, I'll put my response here.

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/636/636018/enter-the-beta-kits-20050722070014193.jpg

So IGN got the dimensions wrong. It's still 3.27" tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBOX_360

12.15" wide x 3.27" high x 10.15" deep

Quote:
Yeah, take a really good look at it. Notice how it's 2 PCI slots tall, making it just as thick as the entire Revolution system?


Only because of the FAN. The whole card isn't 2 PCI slots thick.

The card, plus the chip, plus the heatsink/fan is 2 PCI slots tall.

Now, in the Revolution, you'll have the motherboard (card) plus the CPU/GPU (chip) plus the heatsink/fan. That's still going to be 2 PCI slots tall.

Quote:
You're going to have to fit an optical drive in that case too, which means you've only got about half that height to work with.


You're not understanding what I'm envisioning. Let me put down a few simple ideas for you. A laptop's optical drive is how thick? Will the drive need all of the length of the Revolution which is slightly longer than a DVD case? Ever seen a laptop optical drive that was as long as a DVD case? I haven't. Can you see an image of what I'm describing yet?

Ever seen a laptop with a slot loading DVD drive? I sure haven't.

I have however, done a bit of research. The smallest slot loading optical drive you can buy is 1/2 inches thick, and it's expensive ($199 retail for the drive alone).

Since it is unlikely that Nintendo will be using a $200 drive, we can assume that they will use the more common 41.5mm tall drives (1.63 inches).

If you take a side cross sectional view of a Revoultion case, the slim slot optical drive will only occupy about 1/3 the height of the case. Not only that but it would only occupy about 2/3 of the length. This means you have 2/3 of the height along the whole length of the case in addition to the full height of the case from the last 3rd of the length. This last 3rd is where the fan will be located.

Take that graphics card and increase the area to 4 times which should be enough for all the other chips on the board. At the same time increase the area of the heatsink 4 times but leaving the height the same. Now if you look at the card from a cross sectional view it would look like an "L" shape. The "L" shaped board+fan will fit nicely into the "L" shaped empty space left over from the case after you add the optical drive. Here's a quick and dirty diagram.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------Optical drive-------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|----------Fan---------|
|-----------------------Heatsink-----------------------|
|---------------------------------------------------------|
|---------------------Motherboard--------------------------------------------|

Here is some math for you.

The outside dimensions of the Revolution are said to be roughly 2.6" total height. You've got to take out 1/16"-1/8" from both the top and bottom for the thickness of the case itself. Total interior height would be about 2.425 inches.

In that vertical space, you've got to fit

1.63" tall drive.
.125" thick mobo with chips (CPU and GPU)

And unless you plan on sanding the motherboard smooth on the bottom, and glueing it and the DVD drive to the case, you can assume another .125" of space.

Now you've used up 1.88 inches of space, leaving you with only .545, or just over a half inch of total space left.

In that half inch of total space, you've got to put a heatsink (No fan attached to the heatsink) that is so incredibly efficient that it can match liquid cooling, and still leave enough air space left over to ventilate the system.

Can you show me such a thin, yet efficient heatsink?

Either that, or you have to go with a significantly less powerful GPU that produces significantly less heat than their competitors. There is no other choice.





And FYI, you cannot simply go wider to make up for a thin heatsink. If you ever doubt that, remove the heatsink and fan from your PC's CPU, and place a 20 foot long sheet of tinfoil on it. Place the fan on the foil and boot your computer up.

 

[Guden Oden]

It'll likely be a dual core 970FX (970MP) running at 1.6GHz.

Doubtful. The 970 core is a very large chip at any particular process node. Let's just say I wouldn't say it WON'T happen, but I would eat my hat if nintendo choses the 970. They've NEVER gone that route in the past, choosing big iron when something smaller/more specialized could ge the job done.

It only consumes 16 watts at 1.6GHz (single core version).

 

[Farid]

Doubtful. The 970 core is a very large chip at any particular process node.

Isn't the 970 "only" made of ~60M transistors?

They've NEVER gone that route in the past, choosing big iron when something smaller/more specialized could ge the job done.

And what, in these days and age, could be smaller, more speciallized, cheaper (R&D) and as easy to program for than a 970FX, or slightly modified 970FX?

They still have the option of the Dual (Single?) core In-Order custom CPU...
But then again, for the GC, they just chose a slightly modified 750CX, for R&D cost reasons, one could suppose.
Why would they go down the full custom CPU road this time?

 

[StefanS]

So IGN got the dimensions wrong. It's still 3.27" tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBOX_360

12.15" wide x 3.27" high x 10.15" deep

Just to clear this up:


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm
The Official Specs

Physical Specs

* Height: 83 mm
* Width: 309 mm
* Depth: 258 mm
* Weight: 7.7 lbs.

That's in inch:
h=3.27 inch
w=12.17 inch
d=10.16 inch

 

[Rur0ni]

Well, the final design isnt done right? We're supposed to know full details this year(as in before 2006). What game shows are in the next 6 months? TGS is September 16th through 18th. My bet is on that. But they did say it would be even smaller, probably marginally.

EDIT: Scratch that. http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2005/1638.html

While all major Japanese third party publishers (Atlus, Capcom, Koei, Konami, Square Enix, Sega, Taito, D3 Publisher, Tecmo, Tomy, Namco and Bandai) as well as Sony Computer Entertainment and Microsoft have already confirmed their presence at the event, notable absentees so far include Nintendo and Electronic Arts.

That's just great.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

Well, the final design isnt done right? We're supposed to know full details this year(as in before 2006). What game shows are in the next 6 months? TGS is September 16th through 18th. My bet is on that. But they did say it would be even smaller, probably marginally.

EDIT: Scratch that. http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2005/1638.html

While all major Japanese third party publishers (Atlus, Capcom, Koei, Konami, Square Enix, Sega, Taito, D3 Publisher, Tecmo, Tomy, Namco and Bandai) as well as Sony Computer Entertainment and Microsoft have already confirmed their presence at the event, notable absentees so far include Nintendo and Electronic Arts.

That's just great.

Nintendo didn't attend TGS last year, nor the year before that... They do their own thing.

 

[Rur0ni]

Wasn't aware.

 

[Guden Oden]

Isn't the 970 "only" made of ~60M transistors?

Not sure how many exactly, but it's still a large chip for a microprocessor, and making it dual core isn't going to help either.

And what, in these days and age, could be smaller, more speciallized, cheaper (R&D) and as easy to program for than a 970FX, or slightly modified 970FX?

Uhm... The 970-series is a very peculiar chip regarding which instructions can be bundled up with which, and such. Read the ars analysis on the chip, it's quite scary. It's NOT easy to optimize for this chip, that's for sure, and the weird scheduling is probably the reason it hurt so bad performance-wise versus PC CPUs too. It simply isn't feasible to get very close to its peak performance in a real-world situation.

Why would they go down the full custom CPU road this time?

Why would they go the full custom path? There are other alternatives than either 970 or full custom you know.

 

[jvd]

How about a dual core gekko with a large amount of l2 cache ? 4mbs ? They could design some powersaving features into the cpu . This would be fast and wouldn't be difficult to use as developers already have experiance with the gekko

You can then also in the future scale down to a single core chip for a portable version